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mind the walrus posted:FOX's weirdly racist version doesn't count. Wait, what?
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Nov 21, 2020 12:41
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nemesis_hub posted:Wait, what? Illyana starts the movie off as a jerk to Dani, which leads to her calling Dani 'Pocahantas' and I think 'Standing Rock' at one point while also implying all Native American people should know how either make or get ahold of good drugs. She eventually drops it because they bond (sort of, it's more 'she's on their side now' because the movie is Not Good) but yeah. It's pretty bad even as her actress is probably exactly who you want as Magik.
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Nov 21, 2020 13:47
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Dawgstar posted:Illyana starts the movie off as a jerk to Dani, which leads to her calling Dani 'Pocahantas' and I think 'Standing Rock' at one point while also implying all Native American people should know how either make or get ahold of good drugs. She eventually drops it because they bond (sort of, it's more 'she's on their side now' because the movie is Not Good) but yeah. It's pretty bad even as her actress is probably exactly who you want as Magik. What the hell?? Why would you put that in the movie?! Well, now I know to lower my expectations even further before watching it. And it’s too bad cause I completely agree, ATJ seems like perfect casting.
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Nov 21, 2020 14:47
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She was intentionally trying to antagonize Dani into revealing her power, which Dani didn’t even know what it was at the time. Then, I think, tries to kill her when she finds out Dani has uncontrolled horror movie powers. It’s at least tactical racism.
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Nov 21, 2020 15:00
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Open Marriage Night posted:She was intentionally trying to antagonize Dani into revealing her power, which Dani didn’t even know what it was at the time. Then, I think, tries to kill her when she finds out Dani has uncontrolled horror movie powers. It's just bizarre that to antagonize Dani they had Illyana default to racist stereotypes. Although given the director's response to whitewashing criticism maybe not surprising.
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Nov 21, 2020 15:17
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Dawgstar posted:It's just bizarre that to antagonize Dani they had Illyana default to racist stereotypes. I haven't seen it but from what I hear it's even more bizarre because they're American racial stereotypes coming from a Russian character.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:14
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Open Marriage Night posted:She was intentionally trying to antagonize Dani into revealing her power, which Dani didn’t even know what it was at the time. Then, I think, tries to kill her when she finds out Dani has uncontrolled horror movie powers. They could have written Ilyana being a jerk to Dani without being racist about it, if they really wanted to. It's a choice on the writer and director's end to include that and to whitewash two of the cast.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:42
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What's the worst thing a person can be accused of = what makes them a dick. Ooh a racism!
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Nov 21, 2020 22:24
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"As an intelligent professional filmmaker I'm confident I understand all the nuances of social history. Also as a filmmaker most of my education on social history comes refracted through the lenses of films I've studied. Thus I can conclude with certainty that racism is an entirely individual issue and never systemic, therefore the most anyone has to do is apologize for racist decisions and everything is forgiven."
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Nov 22, 2020 00:14
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To be fair, that's the level of racism you see from one of the major political parties in the US including the President. That being said, it shouldn't have been in the movie and the director is pretty clearly a piece of poo poo based on their response.
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Nov 22, 2020 08:45
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I thought The New Mutants was an underrated movie, and that Magik's pattern of racist remarks worked in the context of the story for two reasons: 1. Ilyana, as depicted in the first couple of acts of the film, was a deeply antisocial person who liked to push people's buttons, and it's not hard to believe that she would go to racial stereotypes as a way of making someone feel uncomfortable. I found this sadly familiar as a person who had a regrettable edgelord phase at that age (as did a lot of people on this forum, probably) and sometimes flirted with quote-unquote "ironic" racism that was suspiciously indistinguishable from "real" racism at times. 2. It felt like a realistic example of the kind of racial taunting that native people have to put up with, and gave Dani an opportunity to deliver Ilyana a comeuppance. More on topic, X of Swords is still a lot of fun. This past week's issues were a good mix of gags, backstabbings, and surprisingly moving character moments.
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Nov 23, 2020 01:27
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Connellingus posted:I thought The New Mutants was an underrated movie, and that Magik's pattern of racist remarks worked in the context of the story for two reasons: no i think the guy who made the movie is a racist
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Nov 23, 2020 01:29
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Connellingus posted:I thought The New Mutants was an underrated movie, and that Magik's pattern of racist remarks worked in the context of the story for two reasons: Obviously the problem with this is that- in a scripted film- you can choose not to elevate that sort of language/behavior, even if it is "realistic." Having one of your heroes use racist language is a choice and you don't have to make that choice! You don't need her to do that and it doesn't elevate her as the "rebel" or whatever. (Side note: this is why the Han-Shot-First thing is loving dumb; if you need that to give Han an "edge" or whatever than the rest of the characterization you've set up is not doing its job. Only this is worse because IT'S RACIST.) Anyway, I just watched it and I thought it was fine. Short and condensed compared to the common bloat these days was appreciated. It had a couple fun geek out moments, most of which involved a big-rear end sword and a little dragon.
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Nov 23, 2020 05:24
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danbanana posted:(Side note: this is why the Han-Shot-First thing is loving dumb; if you need that to give Han an "edge" or whatever than the rest of the characterization you've set up is not doing its job.) This is an incredibly wrong statement to make about a movie. Singular scenes that help define who a character is are a center part of how those movies are created. Unlike a television show where you build upon previous episodes movies need singular scenes that define that and changing even one singular scene can drastically change how you view a character. (Something that can be seen in countless movies where a single deleted scene recontextualized them drastically.) When you change one thing you change everything surrounding it because that singular thing provides important context. A great example of this is Aliens where the theatrical cut completely removed any mention of Ripley having a daughter, and while the themes of motherhood are still clear it drastically changes how you view Ripley's character based off that scene and if it is included or missing. Blade Runner is another great example where small changes lead to big differences. Unless they are the sole focus or majority focus of the movie a movie character is lucky to have as much time onscreen as a single episode of television and unless you're doing "We're already planning three sequels" stuff then that screentime usually needs to involve a character arc. That is discounting the fact that an action movie is also going to eat up a huge chunk of that runtime with action scenes. It is also true of comics where many times a single scene defines something important for a character and removing that single scene drastically changes who they are, which is why so many retcons are messy or dumb.
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Nov 23, 2020 06:45
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danbanana posted:Obviously the problem with this is that- in a scripted film- you can choose not to elevate that sort of language/behavior, even if it is "realistic." Having one of your heroes use racist language is a choice and you don't have to make that choice! You don't need her to do that and it doesn't elevate her as the "rebel" or whatever.
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Nov 23, 2020 14:09
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Connellingus posted:Think of it like the sexism depicted in movies like Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel. In those movies, the sexists were... the bad guys. And also, "Pocahontas" as a slur has a particular meaning in our political culture now. Even if you wanted to make the argument that Illyana being needlessly racist helped her character arc (it didn't), having her repeat a slur made famous by a fascist, white supremacist is probably not ideal. And "Standing Rock" is equally bad, in that it makes fun of a very serious, real-world thing. (That apparently also happened in the X-Movieverse.) It's not to be made light of. These are bad loving choices. ImpAtom posted:Singular scenes that help define who a character is are a center part of how those movies are created. Likewise, Han doesn't need to be a killer (on screen) for you to know he's a shady dude. They literally find him in a place described as "a wretched hive of scum and villany."
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Nov 23, 2020 14:27
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danbanana posted:Likewise, Han doesn't need to be a killer (on screen) for you to know he's a shady dude. They literally find him in a place described as "a wretched hive of scum and villany." Up until then we'd only seen him spout a bunch of bullshit. Having him shoot first tells the audience he might be more than that, both in terms of his shadiness and in his abilities.
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Nov 23, 2020 14:46
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danbanana posted:In those movies, the sexists were... the bad guys. The thing is that yes you need that because Han is portrayed by a likable actor who is largely presented as bullshitting without that scene. To show his transition as a character you need a point of comparison and going from 'perfect willing to shoot someone dead over his debt' to 'returning in the hour of need rather than escaping with the money.' This both completes his in arc in story and pays off the the sequel where Han making that choice has consequences that carry throughout the rest of the series. In a movie especially you shouldn't have unimportant scenes unless the lack of importance is itself important. If you go 'well without this scene the character doesn't work so it must be the character who is bad' ignores that entirely. Those moments are what defines a character and changing them changes the whole. As far as New Mutants goes I agree it was rock stupid but in the hands of a better writer/director you could do something interesting with a character who is racist suddenly finding themselves part of an oppressed group. (District 9 for example is about that.) It was just a case of wrong writer, wrong character' wrong director and wrong movie.
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Nov 23, 2020 17:56
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Also if yoh want to make a super hero properity where everyone is gay, New Mutants is a good choice. Roberto is probably bi though.
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Nov 23, 2020 20:35
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ImpAtom posted:As far as New Mutants goes I agree it was rock stupid but in the hands of a better writer/director you could do something interesting with a character who is racist suddenly finding themselves part of an oppressed group. (District 9 for example is about that.) It was just a case of wrong writer, wrong character' wrong director and wrong movie.  The "Illyana uses racism to goad Dany" is a take that would require serious evidentiary support in the existing movie, but could work... and I very much doubt that was the filmmaker's intention and definitely not how the finished execution reads to most people (and the execution matters way more). Hell Illyana being unironically racist could work, but again it takes serious work. More than I think a FOX property is ever capable of. Because FOX was infamous for corner-cutting whenever and wherever possible. Also the "Han-shot-first is unnecessary" take is hot wrong, I'm very sorry. twistedmentat posted:Also if yoh want to make a super hero properity where everyone is gay, New Mutants is a good choice. Roberto is probably bi though.
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Nov 23, 2020 20:48
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danbanana posted:Likewise, Han doesn't need to be a killer (on screen) for you to know he's a shady dude. They literally find him in a place described as "a wretched hive of scum and villany." There's no disparity between Han being in a scummy dive and also Han killing a dude. The elements work in tandem. They synchronize to make the character. it's like poetry it rhymes
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Nov 23, 2020 21:00
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BrianWilly posted:I think the problem here is that your points of "Your movie should clearly portray who your characters are!" and "This moment, that clearly portrays who this character is, is unnecessary!" are kinda contradictory. Except it's not? Because the whole point of that example is you can make a character scummy or whatever without having them kill people in cold blood or, y'know, use offensive racist language. The point is that you can choose how you portray those characters- particularly THE HEROES OF YOUR STORY- as beings of questionable morals without having them do gross things. Also, literally the only people who think Han-shot-first matters are people above a certain age. And if a 10 year old today can enjoy those films and understand the moral shift in one of the main characters over the course of the film? Then maybe there's not a problem with the change! Anyway, this is what I get for bringing this up on the internet I guess.
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Nov 23, 2020 22:09
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danbanana posted:And if a 10 year old today can enjoy those films and understand the moral shift in one of the main characters over the course of the film? Then maybe there's not a problem with the change!
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Nov 23, 2020 22:30
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It seems your perspective on Illyana is that you don't like that they made this character mean by making her racist, which is valid, whereas your perspective on Han is that you don't like that they chose to make him that mean at all. I suppose you're certainly entitled to want a Han that's bit less mean -- who hangs out in dens of villainy but wouldn't kill anyone -- but portraying it as some sort of technical writing mistake is a stretch. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 22:51
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mind the walrus posted:
Robert's true love is himself.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:06
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Also true. I think his bi is borderline poly and limited to whatever he can see himself in.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:10
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BrianWilly posted:It seems your perspective on Illyana is that you don't like that they made this character mean by making her racist, which is valid, whereas your perspective on Han is that you don't like that they chose to make him that mean at all. He still loving kills Greedo, right? Again, sorry for bringing this up. It's my own fault.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:24
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you're right, it is
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Nov 23, 2020 23:30
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Some X-Cellent news https://twitter.com/XavierFiles/status/1331281536067526656?s=19
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Nov 24, 2020 19:05
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danbanana posted:Also, literally the only people who think Han-shot-first matters are people above a certain age. And if a 10 year old today can enjoy those films and understand the moral shift in one of the main characters over the course of the film? Then maybe there's not a problem with the change! This is untrue on multiple levels. One is that no, it isn't only people above a certain age. Nerds are nerds and people don't stop forming opinions about things that happened before they were born in popular media. Most of us probably have opinions on comic choices far older than that. This is especially true with X-Men when we'll still gladly talk about things that happened before the vast majority of posters on this forum were a twinkle in their parent's eyes. The second is that 'kids can enjoy the film" is always a fairly weak criticism because for the vast majority of kids what they enjoy versus what they pick up on are very different things. As a kid most of us probably liked the things we liked because they were full of cool stuff and neat characters, but the films that sustain the test of time usually do so because they also work on more than just that level. When I was young I liked X-Men because holy poo poo Wolverine was cool and Cyclops could shoot lasers from his eyes, as I got older the underlying metaphors and concepts behind it appealed to me as much, if not moreso, and there are certainly things in those stories which influenced how I feel about things today without me realizing at the time. People grow up and identify media in different ways over the course of their lives. In some cases they grow out of it or change enough that what they once loved feels really offputting now. In other cases they find new ways to respect something they liked as a kid. X-Men and certain other heroes I think are good at this because they mix (sometimes successfully, sometimes not) these elements in. X-Men is about as much as marriage, bigotry, discovering your own identity, figuring out how to fit in without losing who you are, and what it means to be yourself as it is about the dude with kickin' rad exploding cards fighting a samurai made of metal. You can find a lot of this discussion among X-Men fans where even if they didn't realize it at the time X-Men was a major part of them coming to terms with elements of their identity and how it was okay to have those feelings. twistedmentat posted:Robert's true love is himself. This is the only correct answer.
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Nov 24, 2020 22:11
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ImpAtom posted:Cyclops could shoot lasers from his eyes, . They're concussive force beams God dammit.
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Nov 24, 2020 22:33
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Did I imagine that there's a joke in an DoX era X-Men comic where Stryfe calls Cable "basic Cable"? Did that happen or did my head invent it?
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Nov 25, 2020 06:05
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radlum posted:Did I imagine that there's a joke in an DoX era X-Men comic where Stryfe calls Cable "basic Cable"? Did that happen or did my head invent it? I don't remember Stryfe showing up since DoX. There's an issue of the new Cable comic where young Cable meets Deadpool for the first time, I could see Deadpool calling teen Cable that. Edit: just checked, he called teen Cable "Bable" but not Basic Cable. Looks like Stryfe was in a couple issues of pre DoX X-Force that had kid Cable, might be in there. Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Nov 25, 2020 |
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Nov 25, 2020 06:12
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radlum posted:Did I imagine that there's a joke in an DoX era X-Men comic where Stryfe calls Cable "basic Cable"? Did that happen or did my head invent it? god i hope it's real
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Nov 25, 2020 06:17
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It might have been a TV show or dream sequence? It wasn't a long sequence, but I can't place where I saw It.
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Nov 25, 2020 06:21
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Skwirl posted:They're concussive force beams God dammit. Tell that to kid me who watched him melt poo poo with them
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Nov 25, 2020 06:22
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radlum posted:It might have been a TV show or dream sequence? It wasn't a long sequence, but I can't place where I saw It. Just found it; it was 2019's Crazy one shot; it's a 2-page story by Tini Howard. https://twitter.com/XavierFiles/status/1208210394461937664/photo/1
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Nov 25, 2020 06:25
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I'm finally caught up with this bullshit after a few weeks off and all I have to say is what the gently caress
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Nov 25, 2020 09:29
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I did the same over the weekend, and I think I love how off the rails things have gotten?
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Nov 25, 2020 10:04
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So as predicted the ending was rushed. Very strange pacing for this whole event. And I wish the last chapter had ended with a bit more of a tease of what comes after what seems like a huge development: the Arakko mutants will be moving to Krakoa if I understood correctly?
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Nov 25, 2020 10:41
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