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MeinPanzer posted:This may be a hot take, but UK postgrads generally aren't long enough. I'm sorry, but 3-4 years is not nearly enough time to become a well-rounded expert in most disciplines, especially if you expect to go on to teach. My US PhD took 7 years and there are still areas of my specialty I'm not totally comfortable teaching or know very little about. This is true but at least in the uk you are only made to be a peon with a poo poo wage and no job prospects for three years rather than spending the better part of a decade of being shat on even more for less in the us 
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Nov 23, 2020 23:28
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feedmegin posted:...it's not intended to be a teaching qualification though? Teaching is a major component of a PhD most of the time. But 3-4 years also isn't enough time to become an expert in a field, outside of one very narrow slice of it.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:29
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vodkat posted:This is true but at least in the uk you are only made to be a peon with a poo poo wage and no job prospects for three years rather than spending the better part of a decade of being shat on even more for less in the us I guess it depends on the programme but most higher-end humanities/social sciences PhD programmes in the US provide more funding to their students than their UK counterparts.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:33
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MeinPanzer posted:3-4 years also isn't enough time to become an expert in a field 20 minutes with wikipedia is usually enough for me.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:34
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I've been posting here 8* years and consider myself an expert at it.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:35
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Stormgale posted:https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1330957906167132164 Owen does a fair bit of "talking to the enemy" videos to be fair
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Nov 23, 2020 23:36
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MeinPanzer posted:Teaching is a major component of a PhD most of the time. But 3-4 years also isn't enough time to become an expert in a field, outside of one very narrow slice of it. Not in my wife's it wasn't. We don't use doctoral students as cheap academic labour as much here (that comes later). Different model.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:41
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Continuity NIP posted:Things are emerging i call dibs on that name
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Nov 23, 2020 23:44
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Stormgale posted:https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1330957906167132164 *BBC immediately registers an account and posts* And one TERF!
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Nov 23, 2020 23:45
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MeinPanzer posted:This may be a hot take, but UK postgrads generally aren't long enough. I'm sorry, but 3-4 years is not nearly enough time to become a well-rounded expert in most disciplines, especially if you expect to go on to teach. My US PhD took 7 years and there are still areas of my specialty I'm not totally comfortable teaching or know very little about. Maybe this represents the differences between the pre-PhD qualification standards? From a science perspective: I'm not entirely au fait with the US system, and I remember being gobsmacked seeing an American friend's BSc units breakdown for pharmacy and she had units in things like Yoga and sports! I shared a room with a student from the London School of Pharmacy for part of my undergrad and it seemed to be an incredibly tough 3-year programme with copious rote learning of numerous chemicals and drugs (which I am crap at - I prefer lying on my bed figuring things out rather than cramming god knows what chemical reactions into my brain). Nowadays, in the sciences I think a lot of British students do a 4 year undergraduate degree with BSc after 3 years and MSci (which isn't an MSc level qualification) as a 4th year. This was only just coming in when I was doing my PhD and seemed to be quite specifically to develop research skills and so on and the other theory was that the MSci was to bring undergraduate qualification up to the 20 years earlier BSc level. (I'm talking a long time ago now, so maybe things have moved on since then). Students very rarely go from BSc to PhD programme and will normally have done a MSc in between so that really makes 4 years post-grad work, and in addition few doctoral students actually complete in 3 years, most of those I know took 4-6 years to complete. Shorter if you could afford to live without a grant for a year to focus on completing research / writing up, longer if you had to take a job while finishing up. I took a smidgeon under 5 years having had to go back to work when the three years grant was up. Ed: also in the US PhD students have a larger taught course components than in the UK I think, so whereas a UK student would be straight into the research, a US student is still sitting in class for a year? I only had to do 2 courses from the final year undergrad programme to beef up a couple of areas, people usually did up to 4. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 23:46
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feedmegin posted:Not in my wife's it wasn't. We don't use doctoral students as cheap academic labour as much here (that comes later). Different model. I'm at a UK institution, and every postgrad has to teach after their first year. It varies from university to university, but that's actually also my point -- PhD programmes outside of STEM fields (and even in those fields too, I don't know) that don't prepare you for teaching aren't doing a good job.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:47
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TheRat posted:Owen does a fair bit of "talking to the enemy" videos to be fair Platforming right wing types benefits nobody except them.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:49
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MeinPanzer posted:Teaching is a major component of a PhD most of the time. But 3-4 years also isn't enough time to become an expert in a field, outside of one very narrow slice of it. Not really true in the UK. Jaeluni Asjil posted:Students very rarely go from BSc to PhD programme and will normally have done a MSc in between so that really makes 4 years post-grad work, and in addition few doctoral students actually complete in 3 years, most of those I know took 4-6 years to complete. Most people I studied with at undergrad went straight into PhD if they were going in that direction. Though when I did a MPH quite a few of the students there went on to a PhD so I can only conclude that UK education is a land of contrasts.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:51
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https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1330998066837671942 I really used to like Big John but you've gotta be a special kind of gullible to, after all this, still believe compromise is an option.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:53
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A PhD is (or should be when not being used as cheap academic labour) a research apprenticeship. It's not meant to make you into a teacher, it's meant to make you into a researcher. I do agree that 3 years is too short for that, but there's a reason pretty much all STEM PhDs are 4 years, and that's after the now ubiquitous integrated MSci. This is coming at it from a chemistry viewpoint however.
Nothingtoseehere fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 23:53
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MeinPanzer posted:I'm at a UK institution, and every postgrad has to teach after their first year. It varies from university to university, but that's actually also my point -- PhD programmes outside of STEM fields (and even in those fields too, I don't know) that don't prepare you for teaching aren't doing a good job. We didn't have to teach at all. It was entirely up to each student how much seminar/tutorial/exercise class/marking they did. The students with wealthy parents normally did none at all.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:54
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knox_harrington posted:Not really true in the UK. Which is part of my point. Again, this is coming at it from a humanities/social science perspective, but if your PhD programme isn't preparing you to teach, they're not preparing you to be a professional. All joking about job market woes aside, doing a PhD in those disciplines means preparing to be in academia, and getting paid to be an academic almost always requires some form of teaching. Jaeluni Asjil posted:We didn't have to teach at all. It was entirely up to each student how much seminar/tutorial/exercise class/marking they did. The students with wealthy parents normally did none at all. Again, this just reinforces my point.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:55
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knox_harrington posted:Not really true in the UK. We were all registered for MPhils in the first place anyway, only upgraded to PhD registration if they were satisfied after a year that you were capable of it.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:55
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blues thief posted:https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1330998066837671942 I feel like Evans and Starmer are winding themselves up into a hysterical muddle that they don't know how to get out of.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:57
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blues thief posted:https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1330998066837671942 Big John is all about pretending to be an elder statesman of the left, when in fact he is a very subtle shot stirrer.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:58
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thespaceinvader posted:Platforming right wing types benefits nobody except them. Piers Morgan is hardly lacking for platform though.
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Nov 23, 2020 23:58
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Lungboy posted:loving hell, Labour https://twitter.com/JessicaLBarnard/status/1330964928803565569?s=09 Came to post this, obviously no surprise that the Labour right are trying to control what people are allowed to say and knew Barnard wasn't an NUS type but this is a really impressive response. Hits strong "accountability" and "bullying" buzzwords, points out her mandate (which let's be completely clear going forward Starmer no longer has, he's backtracked on the unity candidate and lefty pledges he ran on), does a gentle own by quoting the scum spelling 'misused' wrong, does a shot-above-the-bow IDPOL 'feeling of betrayal' bit and makes an actual firm statement of support for freedom of expression. And best of all she's materially disobeying the leaders office, I loving dare them to come at her that statement is seriously so good. The kids are alright. NotJustANumber99 posted:Does starmer have a Cummings or a Campbell or whatever or is he loving this up all on his own? He has about a hundred of them, the difference is that Cummings was willing to be an arsehole and actually has a brain on him, Starmer is surrounded by identikit Political Ingenues spouting the centrist wisdom 'just cuck to everyone powerful literally all the time'. I still think it'll work and he'll win the next election but he is making it look a little shaky ngl.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:00
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MeinPanzer posted:I'm at a UK institution, and every postgrad has to teach after their first year. It varies from university to university, but that's actually also my point -- PhD programmes outside of STEM fields (and even in those fields too, I don't know) that don't prepare you for teaching aren't doing a good job. The difference here is in the detail (this is academia hur hur). Most uk phds will teach but will be employed by the university in a fixed term contract, you apply for the job and sign a contract for x many hours. You can join a union, you can resign or not work, you can choose which course you apply to work on as a teacher. In the US working is normally a requirement of your stipend. No teach equals no PhD. And negotiations over hours or joining a union? You will be laughed out the door if not thrown out for even daring to question arbitrary labour choices hoisted onto you. And they are often very unreasonable, so even if stipends look bigger from afar the reality is they can be far stingier than the already measly ones in the UK.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:01
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Vitamin P posted:Came to post this, obviously no surprise that the Labour right are trying to control what people are allowed to say and knew Barnard wasn't an NUS type but this is a really impressive response. Hits strong "accountability" and "bullying" buzzwords, points out her mandate (which let's be completely clear going forward Starmer no longer has, he's backtracked on the unity candidate and lefty pledges he ran on), does a gentle own by quoting the scum spelling 'misused' wrong, does a shot-above-the-bow IDPOL 'feeling of betrayal' bit and makes an actual firm statement of support for freedom of expression.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:02
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MeinPanzer posted:This may be a hot take, but UK postgrads generally aren't long enough. I'm sorry, but 3-4 years is not nearly enough time to become a well-rounded expert in most disciplines, especially if you expect to go on to teach. My US PhD took 7 years and there are still areas of my specialty I'm not totally comfortable teaching or know very little about. The purpose of a PhD is the absolute opposite of this though, you are still in the early narrowing specialisation and learning your craft period of academia, the broadening of scope and teaching generally comes later in the UK. However, what teaching we did do (labs and tuts) was pretty much sink or swim, I don't feel that I was "taught to teach" at all - in fact I a few particularly horrible errors while teaching that make me cringe even now.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:03
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Continuity NIP posted:I'd be shocked if Starmer is still in charge by next election the way he's loving this up. Rachel Reeves will take over, attempt to "do it properly" in crushing the left and still gently caress it up.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:07
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Stormgale posted:https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1330957906167132164 yeah the very last thing we need is two Cis men debating our lives
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Nov 24, 2020 00:12
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vodkat posted:The difference here is in the detail (this is academia hur hur). Most uk phds will teach but will be employed by the university in a fixed term contract, you apply for the job and sign a contract for x many hours. You can join a union, you can resign or not work, you can choose which course you apply to work on as a teacher. In the US working is normally a requirement of your stipend. No teach equals no PhD. And negotiations over hours or joining a union? You will be laughed out the door if not thrown out for even daring to question arbitrary labour choices hoisted onto you. And they are often very unreasonable, so even if stipends look bigger from afar the reality is they can be far stingier than the already measly ones in the UK. I’m well aware of the differences, having tried to unionize at my PhD institution and then striking recently at the UK institution I’m at now. I think on average UK stipends may be comparable to US stipends, but in high-end programmes the difference in stipends is significant.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:16
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CancerCakes posted:The purpose of a PhD is the absolute opposite of this though, you are still in the early narrowing specialisation and learning your craft period of academia, the broadening of scope and teaching generally comes later in the UK. See I find this attitude kind of bizarre. UK PhDs are often competing in an international academic market against their peers from the US who absolutely are expected to be experts in their field after 2-3 years of intensive postgrad coursework plus exams followed by 3-4 years of diss research and writing.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:19
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Maybe Starmer has taken the view that with probably 4 years to the next election, now is the time to clear out the left from the party on the assumption it will all be forgotten by then (and relying on the left having no one else to vote for). I guess he is discounting the local elections and senedd in May.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:20
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Guavanaut posted:We need to have a debate with trans people, non binary people, intersex people, and doctors who are specialists in the latest endocrinology and gender identity research who have listened to trans, non binary, and intersex people. In fact we’ve only got time for one talking head, let’s go with someone people have heard of like JK Rowling
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Nov 24, 2020 00:24
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MeinPanzer posted:Teaching is a major component of a PhD most of the time. But 3-4 years also isn't enough time to become an expert in a field, outside of one very narrow slice of it. I only taught one semester and it was purely by choice because I needed the experience.* If you're self-funded or have stingy funding lots of people do it to top up their income, but there's absolutely no obligation where I did my PhD. As to your comments on the US vs UK systems, I get the impression Americans do 2-3 years of classes + teaching before they even begin to propose/write a thesis (which adds 3-4). Tbh that seems waaay over the top to me, and honestly the whole culture of US academia seems to somehow make the UK seem relatively chill - they're the only fuckers at conferences who both to show up in full suits, and dear god many of them can be overly competitive and aggressive. A friend of mine went over to Columbia for an exchange for a couple months and said she was really struck by how even going out to bars with the students there it was full blast all the time, they talked shop the whole time and tried to one up each other and would never just kick back with a beer and socialise like normal humans (and like is normal here in the UK). I've also heard plenty of horror stories about supervisors and examiners being needlessly overcritical and unsupportive and the idea that the process is supposed to be an ordeal that only a minority get through. All of this suggests a really toxic environment that's totally in keeping with everything else about the US approach to everything, but making something deliberately punitive doesn't necessarily mean you're producing more effective scholars, but you're definitely making a whole cohort of lecturers and tutors trained to treat their students with contempt and constantly do them down. It's not good. The UK 1 year taught masters + 3 year wholly thesis-based PhD (or rather, 3 funded years) has its own issues. Funding for PhD study is limited but it is there, but you usually require the 1 year masters which is almost impossible to find funding for, so its acts as a paygate, and 3 years is cutting it quite fine to get the research done and a solid thesis out particularly on top of any teaching or other work commitments you might have. Still, I've found the culture to be very supportive. Obviously that's going to differ a lot based on subject and institution and who your supervisor is, but I don't think there's the widespread culture of intensity as there is in the states. I think the ideal would be to have straight five year funded PhDs with the first year acting like the US model as an integrated masters with classes etc, then a full 4 years for the thesis. I may be wrong but I believe 4 years was the standard funding length until relatively recently, and still is in some subjects, but, you know, cuts. * Bit of a digression but my lord the way GTAs work for first/second year undergrads is absurd. I was thrown in front of a tutorial of 25-30 second years with basically no training or guidance and had to wing it completely. I had expected around 10 people, 15 at most. You do gradually get the hang of it but I'm sure it was patently obvious to half of them that I did not have a clue what I was doing. Unis really do take the piss out of both their junior staff and students something rotten. Borrovan posted:I failed,* despite my supervisors saying that it's some of the best work they've ever seen Ah, that sucks. Obviously I've just met people fortunate to have decent supervisors. I imagine the culture depends a lot on which subject you're in too. Good luck with the resubmission! ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Nov 24, 2020 |
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Nov 24, 2020 00:24
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Even more good news - my German is almost good enough to read a newspaper now. That article is not even as kind as Nick Tolhurst makes it out to be. It opens as follows: "Since the Brexit Referendum four years ago, car manufacturers on the island have warned of "No Deal". But Prime Minister Boris Johnson apparently still believes he can dictate conditions to the EU. This denial of reality takes vengeance on him now."
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Nov 24, 2020 00:26
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Maybe Starmer has taken the view that with probably 4 years to the next election, now is the time to clear out the left from the party on the assumption it will all be forgotten by then (and relying on the left having no one else to vote for). I was just thinking the same, his problem will be the cost of doing so. At the last election we lost because loads of "centrists" stayed home. What he risks is regaining those votes for the loss of The Left Wing vote, and that could be even more fatal for his chances of becoming PM.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:28
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UK is The Incel now.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:30
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Maybe Starmer has taken the view that with probably 4 years to the next election, now is the time to clear out the left from the party on the assumption it will all be forgotten by then (and relying on the left having no one else to vote for). All things being as they are right now, I would still vote Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow. Not at a local election, mind you. Of course, the professional political class in charge of Labour would claim that a wipeout at a local level would be entirely the fault of Jammery Corvid.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:38
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OwlFancier posted:UK is The Incel now.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:40
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kingturnip posted:All things being as they are right now, I would still vote Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow. Well who the hell else would you vote for?
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Nov 24, 2020 00:42
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Every time I think "I probably should vote labour for the sake of harm reduction for people worse off than me" they go and do something apparently designed to make me change my mind about that.
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Nov 24, 2020 00:43
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CGI Stardust posted:the original Virgin Island
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Nov 24, 2020 00:44
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