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Rappaport posted:I'm sorry, but on its face, this seems extremely draconian and silly. How is this different from a poll tax, or something similar? I'm an EU citizen and I have a passport, but I don't carry it around with me, and it seems extremely weird that "getting caught without" it would get me fined thousands of euros. It's not only extremely draconian and silly, it's also completely not true, even though there are plenty of "good citizens" who still believe in this BS. There is no general obligation to carry your Personalausweiss or passport in Germany, you're also not required to just randomly produce it to police or anything. That will probably not stop the cops from claiming that you are of course.
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Nov 21, 2020 19:58
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It's one of those things that's not really enforced. Especially not for kids. No police man one day wakes up and goes "Yes, today I will go to this school I really hate and randomly bust 16 year olds for not having an ID" Mostly because he wouldn't be a police man anymore blindingly fast if he pulled that poo poo.
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Nov 21, 2020 20:02
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Rappaport posted:But do I get to ask the nice officer to come with me back to my apartment's door to show him I have a passport? How does that work in practice? It still seems like a very onerous NIMBY legislation thing. I don't know if the same applies in Germany, but in Italy AFAIK you are required to identify yourself if the nice officer asks you to - whether because you did something wrong and he needs to fine you, or because e.g. you need to be registered as a witness to a crime. Most adults will have their driving licence with them which is valid ID, so it's not an issue. But it's totally OK if you left your ID at home or in the car - let's say you're at the beach, for example! - but yeah, you'll need to go grab them if necessary. And if you can't or refuse to do so, then yes, you can be detained until you are identified one way or another.
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Nov 21, 2020 20:23
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Okay, it's clear that I over-reacted, sorry everyone.
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Nov 21, 2020 20:27
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Cingulate posted:This is radicalising me. Haha that loving parting shot. Amazing.
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Nov 21, 2020 20:29
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NihilCredo posted:I don't know if the same applies in Germany, but in Italy AFAIK you are required to identify yourself if the nice officer asks you to - whether because you did something wrong and he needs to fine you, or because e.g. you need to be registered as a witness to a crime. But of course, the nice police man surely wouldn't selectively enforce this against certain kinds of people, riiiiight?
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Nov 22, 2020 09:43
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Ghost Leviathan posted:But of course, the nice police man surely wouldn't selectively enforce this against certain kinds of people, riiiiight? I'd imagine the succes rate for refusing to identify uourself to a cop when asked is quite low regardless of ethnicity. How the situation excalates from that point is an entirely different matter.
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Nov 22, 2020 10:14
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Our media has started talking about some odd EU-level legal fuckery that could be employed to keep Poland and Hungary from blocking the Covid-help. Essentially, if the two mad men leading Poland and Hungary can't be made to see reason, the EU minus those two states could make some sort of additional contract to negotiate the Covid-help between them. Then 25 states would get the promised help, and Poland and Hungary: Get nothing. Of course that doesn't stop them from blocking the entire budget from going forward, but the EU could go and use an emergency budget with most of the money not available to slowly lumber forward as long as the veto stands. So if Poland and Hungary can't be made to see reason, we can have some fun watching 25 states financially strangulate the other two states, while those then retaliate by strangulating the rest via the main EU budget. Mutual murder-suicide. Something to look forward to! (Warning: High levels of sarcasm detected) Libluini fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Nov 22, 2020 |
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Nov 22, 2020 17:10
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So the vice chair of the Liberals, Inger Støjberg, who is currently under investigation for abuse of power, lying to parliament, lying to the Ombudsman and violating the ECHR, but is also the most popular minister Denmark has had in decades because she sticks it to the Muslims, immigrants and refugees, just used the term "drain the swamp" in a public speech. And then there was this yesterday when their core voters protested over the ongoing mink scandal:  
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Nov 22, 2020 17:59
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Libluini posted:It's one of those things that's not really enforced. Especially not for kids. No police man one day wakes up and goes "Yes, today I will go to this school I really hate and randomly bust 16 year olds for not having an ID" US cops definitely do this or just shoot them
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Nov 22, 2020 19:29
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:US cops definitely do this Luckily not in Germany. Though US-cops suddenly showing up in a German school would turn an already infamous scandal into an international incident, which would be worth some popcorn.
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Nov 22, 2020 20:40
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Libluini posted:Luckily not in Germany. Though US-cops suddenly showing up in a German school would turn an already infamous scandal into an international incident, which would be worth some popcorn. You can't be busted for not having an ID in Germany because you are not required to carry ID... However cops regularly will randomly harass kids in the "wrong" schools, though they'll do it right outside the gates
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Nov 23, 2020 10:02
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Mygna posted:That's the fine for not owning an ID card or alternatively a passport at all. There's no requirement to carry it around with you. In the Netherlands there is. If you're out in public without ID, you are breaking the law. In practice this is mostly used to add on another fine if the police already got you for something else, like urinating in public or driving without a license or things like that.
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Nov 23, 2020 12:50
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Orange Devil posted:In the Netherlands there is. If you're out in public without ID, you are breaking the law. Same in Belgium
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Nov 23, 2020 12:55
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I read today that this October alone over 500 people drowned while crossing the Mediterranean In the US putting children in cages causes (rightful) uproar. In the EU having thousands of people drown at your borders is normal background noise This is all so sickening
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Nov 24, 2020 23:51
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Honestly, given that zero consequences happened and the american uproar was quite muted outside lefty circles, and that the refugee stuff has uproars and news things happening here too, i'm not sure how big the difference between the two is.
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Nov 25, 2020 02:06
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Lord Stimperor posted:I read today that this October alone over 500 people drowned while crossing the Mediterranean Many US immigrants die on the way due to dehydration etc. But you're right its sickening. What is more sickening is that the uproar is because the bodies still have people inside of them, but we dont see EU outcry because the bodies are dead before they hit the shores.
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Nov 25, 2020 02:19
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The EU likes to lecture the US on treatment of immigrants and refuges but the poo poo I seen in most of Europe and my home country of Portugal makes the US seem good towards immigrants (it's not).
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Nov 25, 2020 02:24
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Celexi posted:The EU likes to lecture the US on treatment of immigrants and refuges but the poo poo I seen in most of Europe and my home country of Portugal makes the US seem good towards immigrants (it's not). That's mostly due to geographic size and the fact that coyotes still roam the border. Iirc many bodied get eaten before someone finds them due to the population density of our border. The European border Is much more populated in terms of proximity to the shores.
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Nov 25, 2020 04:54
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It's loving gross. The media has been banging the "X people arrive today, we are overwhelmed as a country!!1!!1!" Since the 90's at least.
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Nov 25, 2020 07:42
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Dawncloack posted:It's loving gross. The media has been banging the "X people arrive today, we are overwhelmed as a country!!1!!1!" Since the 90's at least.
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Nov 25, 2020 07:44
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What part of the Portuguese border are people arriving at where coyotes are eating them while they wait?
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Nov 25, 2020 07:49
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Dawncloack posted:It's loving gross. The media has been banging the "X people arrive today, we are overwhelmed as a country!!1!!1!" Since the 90's at least. If Italian policy towards migrants is anything to go by, they are little more than a macroeconomic lever. It's especially evident now that we've had a far right gov and a center one in successive years. where the far right just straight up abolished a class of refugee protective status, the entire refugee housing and processing network, which was also responsible for teaching the language, finding jobs etc, and arbitrarily extended the citizenship process' max lentgh from 2 to 4 years (this is just the ministry processing the paperwork, there are still absolutely insane draconian requirements for eligibility, to which they added Italian language certification) Year later, the center gov comes in, reverses some but not all of those. Like, the extraordinary protection class of refugee is back, they re-established a sort of network for processing, housing and helping integrate, but also reduced the path to citizenship to...3 years, kept the language cert requirements, have no plans to change the eligibility requirements, and as recently as a few months ago literally dangled a regularised residence permit in front of migrant agricultural workers so they'd get back to work in the middle of the pandemic. You can see from this attitude what migrants are. Nothing more than a dial for govt to turn to achieve desired wage and price effects, and for the media to scream about so they can promote far right politics. This is what migrants are to the west. That's all.
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Nov 25, 2020 08:02
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Nilbop posted:What part of the Portuguese border are people arriving at where coyotes are eating them while they wait? He was talking about why the US-border situation looks better than Portugal: Because immigrants eaten by coyotes in the desert just disappear silently.
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Nov 25, 2020 08:19
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Libluini posted:He was talking about why the US-border situation looks better than Portugal: Because immigrants eaten by coyotes in the desert just disappear silently. This is what I was getting at. Europe and the US Look somewhat similar because the bodies aren't being found. The people locked in concentration camps are a viewable act and thus Europeans see the US as barbaric. In a way Europe does a catch and release type strategy. \spanish enclaves in Morroco Melila specifically just drop people a few miles outside the 20 loving fences theyve erected.
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Nov 25, 2020 08:44
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EU does concentration camps too though, both in- and out-sourced. Insourced camps like Lampedusa, Lesbos etc. (all of them severely over capacity and facing constant shortages of necessary goods, cramped conditions, and so on) outsourced like Libya (straight up murder and torture camps where people are held for ransom to their families in their original countries, forcing them to sell literally everything to get a chance at setting them free). It is just glossed over completely because nobody actually gives a gently caress except when they need to highlight the big threat of ethnic substitution to prop up some right wing shithead or other, or they need more bodies to man industries with uppity unions.
mortons stork fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Nov 25, 2020 |
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Nov 25, 2020 08:55
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mortons stork posted:You can see from this attitude what migrants are. Nothing more than a dial for govt to turn to achieve desired wage and price effects, and for the media to scream about so they can promote far right politics. This is what migrants are to the west. That's all. Same in sweden, its terrible and the left(atleast here) has no way to turn this tide. Solidarity as a concept and a practice is having a rough time. Immigrants are basically used as cheap labour , a tool for white supremacy through fear of the other or a way for the burgouis to ease their conciensce about raping and pillaging the world. Human beings? Nah, not in the eyes of the great western civilization. gently caress it all. And both the EU and USA is terrible. No need to compare really.
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Nov 25, 2020 08:59
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mortons stork posted:EU does concentration camps too though, both in- and out-sourced. Insourced camps like Lampedusa, Lesbos etc. (all of them severely over capacity and facing constant shortages of necessary goods, cramped conditions, and so on) outsourced like Libya (straight up murder and torture camps where people are held for ransom to their families in their original countries, forcing them to sell literally everything to get a chance at setting them free). It is just glossed over completely because nobody actually gives a gently caress except when they need to highlight the big threat of ethnic substitution to prop up some right wing shithead or other, or they need more bodies to man industries with uppity unions. There's a big difference between the sort of camps US has (or UK for that matter) which are a form or immigration detention, and the ones you call "insourced camps" which are a form of asylum seeker housing - they are given benefits to buy food, and more importantly it's not an actual prison with loving people cages but more of a shanty town.
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Nov 25, 2020 09:23
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It really depends on what 'class' of migrants we talk about. For those far enough in the process, refugees with recognised status etc, the Italian Sprar system for instance is much what you say. But Lampedusa and Lesbos, as first points of arrival, have a lot more in common with the US barbarism than we'd like to admit. I mean, what was that, a month ago? When it came out that Greek authorities just had a cool thousand migrants just dropped off in the sea off the coast of Lesbos. e: to be perfectly clear though, without even going to the migrant arrival hotspots, I think the EU's continued support of Libyan death camps and open air slave markets not only completely balances out any improvements we may have in our treatment of migrants who make it far enough along the process, but also eliminate any sort of ground for Europeans to condemn other states doing immigrant death camps as well. mortons stork fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Nov 25, 2020 |
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Nov 25, 2020 09:36
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Yeah I don't have anything whatsoever good to say about what goes on in Libya, but as far as Lempedusa goes, the conditions there, while deeply sad and tragic are far from the worse-than-literal-max-security-prisons conditions in the US and UK immigration detention. For one people aren't in literal individual cells, not to mention that there's a time limit of few days for the processing. I mean yes, once granted refugee status people can live and work wherever and get special benefits, which is obviously far superior, but there's a big difference between detention camps and migrant reception centres. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Nov 25, 2020 |
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Nov 25, 2020 10:41
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the italian navy actually did have a search and rescue effort going for a while cakled Mare Nostrum, but nobody wanted to cooperate with it unless they handed it over to frontex and changed the mandate so they did
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Nov 25, 2020 11:36
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the way we've chosen to deal with refugees makes my blood boil it's utterly inhumane, and it's also loving *stupid*. these people are going to hate us with good reason. i can grudgingly follow the logic that we can't deal with unregulated migration and that a system is probably necessary, but the way we've set it up it's just designed to hurt, kill and humiliate for no good reason even if you're going to deport people, it's better that they get picked up and processed instead of literally dying. the greek navy has almost certainly been sinking boats as well, because they're out of room in the hellcamps and there's no help to get from the rest of us because we're happy with it being someone else's problem it's a step removed from machine guns at the border, but it's a very small step. loving hell
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Nov 25, 2020 11:47
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We can deal with unregulated migration, we choose not to. Make it safe for people to cross over and put signs at the border that say :"Welcome, we're sorry you had to leave your home behind but we will take care of you." In different languages at the border. The idea that migration needs to be regulated is woeful, everyone has a fundamental right to not be scared or wanting for food, income, healthcare and a safe place to live.
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Nov 25, 2020 12:06
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the last big "wave" of immigrants in europe was also a success story in every single way except how it was used to push right wing politics. europe is 500 million people. even if 50 million people suddenly moved here it'd barely be a blip in the total number of people, but people lost their loving minds over a couple million that didn't even amount to 1% after all was said and done
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Nov 25, 2020 12:39
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You think nobody would notice if unemployment and homeless numbers rose by 10% over a year? It wouldn't be unsurmountable, but it would be a drat big crisis.
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Nov 25, 2020 12:44
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we also have more than enough resources to not have a "drat big crisis" over a bit of unemployment, we just choose to never use them there also is 11 million empty homes in europe
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Nov 25, 2020 12:50
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steinrokkan posted:You think nobody would notice if unemployment and homeless numbers rose by 10% over a year? It wouldn't be unsurmountable, but it would be a drat big crisis. They wouldn't because 50 million new people would be 50 million new people to educate, feed, sell things to and so on. That's why migrants are an economic positive.
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Nov 25, 2020 12:58
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migrants aren't evenly distributed - for perfectly understandable reasons they prefer to go to places like germany, britain and sweden, and 50 million people settling in germany would absolutely be noticable - even the flat increase of 10% of the population that you're suggesting would mean the end of every european welfare state and a huge amount of tension and instability, and there's no reason to believe that we're not going to see much more than that in the years to come. we're at eighty million refugees in the world right now, and that number is only going to increase. like, ok, it's not an obvious case, but there *is* a legitimate and coherent case for regulated borders. even if one accepted that, however, what we're doing right now is barbaric and stupid
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Nov 25, 2020 12:58
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European governments have shown consistently that where corporations are concerned they have no trouble magicking up billions of currency no questions asked. I am more than willing to go to loving bat to make them do the same to make sure migrants have an easier time coming here and rebuilding their loving lives.
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Nov 25, 2020 13:18
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An insane mind posted:European governments have shown consistently that where corporations are concerned they have no trouble magicking up billions of currency no questions asked. I am more than willing to go to loving bat to make them do the same to make sure migrants have an easier time coming here and rebuilding their loving lives. its funny, all im hearing is 'austerity' and 'close the borders'
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Nov 25, 2020 13:30
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