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nonathlon posted:Is Ferris State a proper institute, a backwater or diploma mill? It's at whatever tier is between the various directional Michigan universities and a community college.
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Nov 24, 2020 19:40
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quote:No atomic bombs ever exploded over Hiroshima and Nagasaki August 1945. News about 100.000's of Japanese being vaporized in nanoseconds FLASHes and disappearing in thin air or slowly being killed by nuclear radiation during several months afterwards autumn 1945 at various Japanese hospitals were just Fake News and propaganda! Nobody tell the inhabitants of said cities!
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Nov 24, 2020 19:47
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Guavanaut posted:I have unfortunately heard it before. It's quite an old conspiracy theory, so of course it's now part of Q. “Nuclear physics is fake” is a very real and niche conspiracy theory. They postulate that nuclear ships and submarines actually travel over undersea cables like some sort of electrified rail and that power plants are secretly just coal burning or whatever. I loving love it because every conspiracy theory has a reason it exists, like how flat earth proves the Bible, but I haven’t figured out what people get out of thinking the bomb is a hoax.
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Nov 24, 2020 20:07
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Rob Rockley posted:but I haven’t figured out what people get out of thinking the bomb is a hoax. Validation that they were smarter than the physics teacher who failed them in high school
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Nov 24, 2020 20:14
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Rob Rockley posted:“Nuclear physics is fake” is a very real and niche conspiracy theory. They postulate that nuclear ships and submarines actually travel over undersea cables like some sort of electrified rail and that power plants are secretly just coal burning or whatever. I loving love it because every conspiracy theory has a reason it exists, like how flat earth proves the Bible, but I haven’t figured out what people get out of thinking the bomb is a hoax. 
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Nov 24, 2020 20:21
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Rob Rockley posted:“Nuclear physics is fake” is a very real and niche conspiracy theory. They postulate that nuclear ships and submarines actually travel over undersea cables like some sort of electrified rail and that power plants are secretly just coal burning or whatever. I loving love it because every conspiracy theory has a reason it exists, like how flat earth proves the Bible, but I haven’t figured out what people get out of thinking the bomb is a hoax. Do away with the MAD doctrine as a big old scam and you can goose step across the world without all the inconvenience of global annihilation, wet dream for far right loonies everywhere.
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Nov 24, 2020 20:22
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Rob Rockley posted:but I haven’t figured out what people get out of thinking the bomb is a hoax. Relief from anxiety about impending nuclear holocaust?
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Nov 24, 2020 20:22
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Rob Rockley posted:“Nuclear physics is fake” is a very real and niche conspiracy theory. They postulate that nuclear ships and submarines actually travel over undersea cables like some sort of electrified rail and that power plants are secretly just coal burning or whatever. I loving love it because every conspiracy theory has a reason it exists, like how flat earth proves the Bible, but I haven’t figured out what people get out of thinking the bomb is a hoax. It's a "chink in the armor" mentality. An otherwise very intelligent Quack I worked with for a number of years (taught me a ton of poo poo about SQL, Python, and SAML, basically built the company's first platform by himself, routinely described as "scary smart" by other team members) started in with the flat earth stuff because "if you can prove science wrong about one thing, you can prove them wrong about everything, and then they'll have to come face to face with the fact that the universe doesn't match what science says, and they'll have to admit that it was created, meaning, that there is a Creator. God bless!"
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Nov 24, 2020 20:24
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Rob Rockley posted:“Nuclear physics is fake” is a very real and niche conspiracy theory. They postulate that nuclear ships and submarines actually travel over undersea cables like some sort of electrified rail and that power plants are secretly just coal burning or whatever. I loving love it because every conspiracy theory has a reason it exists, like how flat earth proves the Bible, but I haven’t figured out what people get out of thinking the bomb is a hoax. The Nazis believed that Relativity (The backbone of nuclear and several other sciences) was Fake Jew Science. In all practicality, this was entirely because Einstein was Jewish. Although if you pressed a high-ranking Nazi scientist during this time he'd probably give a long winded answer about how you can measure things like "Gravity" and "Chemistry" with practical experiments in your own home, while Relativity is something you need expensive equipment to measure and is therefore part of a plot by lying elites to attack and dethrone God.
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Nov 24, 2020 20:25
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Rob Rockley posted:I haven’t figured out what people get out of thinking the bomb is a hoax.  " is all it is. "you read about it in your history books? how cute. that's what they want you to think. therefore any other explanation is better because it proves i'm smart."
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Nov 24, 2020 20:28
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Rob Rockley posted:“Nuclear physics is fake” is a very real and niche conspiracy theory. They postulate that nuclear ships and submarines actually travel over undersea cables like some sort of electrified rail and that power plants are secretly just coal burning or whatever. I loving love it because every conspiracy theory has a reason it exists, like how flat earth proves the Bible, but I haven’t figured out what people get out of thinking the bomb is a hoax. A large part of it just seems to be wishing away complexity and things that aren't nice like the ever present threat of nuclear war. Sometimes there's a religious angle, like "God wouldn't allow something so powerful that it could unmake his greatest creation, man." or a weird Nazi anti-relativity angle, because there's always those variants of any conspiracy theory.
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Nov 24, 2020 20:29
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Guavanaut posted:Sometimes there's a religious angle, like "God wouldn't allow something so powerful that it could unmake his greatest creation, man." or a weird Nazi anti-relativity angle, because there's always those variants of any conspiracy theory. My former boss didn't believe in climate change because a family member that he respects highly once told him, "we're not that powerful". He thought he was giving me some deep and insightful spiritual knowledge and I could only respond with... Ok, you respect him, but he's clearly wrong, given things like the atomic bomb, mountaintop removal mining, dams that redirect rivers completely changing ecosystems, etc. I finally said that in a way, he's right, nature and the Earth will live on... Just without being able to sustain humanity. He didn't like that answer, and we stopped debating about it after that point.
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Nov 24, 2020 20:38
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I knew a guy on another forum who was absolutely convinced it was impossible to wipe out human life because Revelation is a book of prophecy and it talks about humans and cities, so therefore they must exist when Jesus comes back, so therefore it is impossible for humanity or society to be wiped out. He was using it as an argument against climate change, but I suppose he'd be required to believe that atomic weapons are fake too, or at least that the claims of nuclear stockpiles are lies.
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Nov 24, 2020 20:48
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Twelve by Pies posted:I knew a guy on another forum who was absolutely convinced it was impossible to wipe out human life because Revelation is a book of prophecy and it talks about humans and cities, so therefore they must exist when Jesus comes back, so therefore it is impossible for humanity or society to be wiped out. He was using it as an argument against climate change, but I suppose he'd be required to believe that atomic weapons are fake too, or at least that the claims of nuclear stockpiles are lies. People overestimate how total the destruction of a nuclear war would be. There would still be (burnt out husks of) cities, and survivors scrounging the blasted earth. Just not enough of them for it to continue for more than a generation or two.
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Nov 24, 2020 20:57
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I think a lot of the more bizzare far out conspiracy theories like that just come from a simple desire to want to "know something" that others dont. so just pick a niche and go for it, that thing everyone accepts fact? It's not!
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Nov 24, 2020 21:03
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Rotten Red Rod posted:My former boss didn't believe in climate change because a family member that he respects highly once told him, "we're not that powerful". He thought he was giving me some deep and insightful spiritual knowledge and I could only respond with... Ok, you respect him, but he's clearly wrong, given things like the atomic bomb, mountaintop removal mining, dams that redirect rivers completely changing ecosystems, etc. Yeah, that was a major talking point for many years. Back when Obama tried to pass cap and trade, it was "human scientists are so arrogant! How could they possibly understand something as complicated as the CLIMATE?" Around that time, one of my uncles cornered me at a party and demanded to know how evolution could produce something as complicated as a human eye. I was young and dumb and a little drunk, so I started talking about how lots of microbes have photosensitive organelles that are plausible precursors to rods. He nodded along dropping what he thought were gotcha questions, but he kept saying "but it's too complicated. It'd never happen by chance!" I finally said "Look, man, this takes a long time. Like really stop and think about how long a million years is. All of human history has happened in 5,000 years, and we went from being three foot tall chimps with pointy sticks to splitting the atom and poo poo. The emergence of life took billions. And a generation for a simple organism is like twenty minutes." It legitimately blew his mind because he'd never thought about how big numbers are before. Because "big" and "incomprehensible" are the same thing in lovely conservative rhetoric. I think he's still a CHUD though.
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Nov 24, 2020 23:00
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betaraywil posted:I think he's still a CHUD though. Yeah, in my experience you can seemingly completely convince someone (or at least give them something to chew on and start to question their worldview) and by the next time you see them it'll be like it never happened. In the meantime they'll either have completely forgotten about it or looked up more bogus info that contradicts it. I just kinda don't talk with that half of my family anymore if I can help it.
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Nov 24, 2020 23:12
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betaraywil posted:All of human history has happened in 5,000 years, I hope that was a typo
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Nov 24, 2020 23:31
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source All this talk of Q reminded me of the Q source, a document which may or may not have existed that (if it existed) was the basis of much of the parts of the bible about the life of Jesus. It's also more interesting because it might actually be real. Are you at all familiar with this Q?
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Nov 24, 2020 23:36
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I would blow Dane Cook posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source It comes up from time to time. FROM APOSTATES LIKE YOU.
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Nov 24, 2020 23:46
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exmachina posted:I hope that was a typo It’s about right for recorded human history and sedentary human habitation and cities, ie everything that’s a part of our experience. The human species is only about 200,000 years old.
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Nov 24, 2020 23:50
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I would blow Dane Cook posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source I wrote and promptly deleted a big effort post on the book of revelation, which is one of the funnier cases of what people think it’s about (the end of the world) as opposed to what’s actually about (a description of current events as told by someone who lacked Jesus’ talent for more subtle metaphor). I remember being told (in a catholic school) about the Q source and how the gospels were probably ripped off that (hypothetical) account by people who never met Jesus. I’m pretty sure it’s the accepted mainstream interpretation among actual scholars. That being said, “mainstream Bible scholarship” and “what Americans actually believe” are vastly, vastly different things, and a big part of the problem.
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Nov 25, 2020 00:07
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Rob Rockley posted:That being said, “mainstream Bible scholarship” and “what Americans actually believe” are vastly, vastly different things, and a big part of the problem. Biblical Literalism is functionally impossible and potentially heretical in Christianity and yet a sizeable chunk of American Christians identify themselves as such 
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Nov 25, 2020 00:11
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DarklyDreaming posted:Biblical Literalism is functionally impossible and potentially heretical in Christianity and yet a sizeable chunk of American Christians identify themselves as such It’s a surprisingly common belief for a religious tradition with two totally contradictory origin myths, which promptly collide with each other on the very first page of the Bible. which is kind of the whole problem with Qanon and other conspiracy beliefs as well: how do you reach someone who has gone so far up their rear end, telling you they’ve done the research and have all the facts, when they clearly ignore what’s right in front of all our faces? I really think that while it’s not a uniquely American problem, Americans are very taken with conspiracy theories because our country was founded by people who got kicked out of Europe for being Bible crazies, and I think that has greatly influenced our relationship with things like obvious facts. I think the US is fertile breeding ground for conspiracy theories because we’ve been at it for centuries and made it a core value of our nation that believing weird poo poo with no questions asked is a fundamental right. Should someone who believes the earth is only 5000 years old and flat be hired as a teacher, when they clearly don’t grasp geometry, physics, or general modern scientific consensus? In America you will be told you are infringing on someone’s right to free religion. We just kind of accept weird rear end beliefs as totally normal, for all the downsides that come with it. I think weird rear end mega churches and trump and Qanon come from the same root cause: Americans are intentionally credulous and tolerant of weird beliefs.
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Nov 25, 2020 00:34
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RagnarokAngel posted:If you believed this you'd be a lot more proactive. How active am I?
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Nov 25, 2020 00:50
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exmachina posted:I hope that was a typo If you know about documents that are older than that please don't waste time proving it to me! Hie yourself to the Oriental Institute forthwith, o bold correcter of internet posts
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Nov 25, 2020 02:23
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exmachina posted:I hope that was a typo 
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Nov 25, 2020 03:35
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Guavanaut posted:I have unfortunately heard it before. It's quite an old conspiracy theory, so of course it's now part of Q. i have seen some really weird denial poo poo on youtube like that. like how the civil war/world war 1/ world war 2/ vietnam/ etc never happened. there used to be some dude on youtube who made videos saying that jefferson davis and john brown were the same person and it was all fake and poo poo. but this was like 8 years ago. i spent like 10 min trying to find the videos but they are gone. I would blow Dane Cook posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source thats more of a historical thing. basicaly alot of historians and such believe alot of the gospels(the canonical 4 and the others) share a ton of similar stylings and poo poo that they believe that their was probably a bigger volume of work about jesus that got passed around and that the stories changed over time a bunch. like : Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John have different audiances and are trying to prove different points and poo poo, mostly because they were written at different times and poo poo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel#Canonical_gospels
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Nov 25, 2020 04:15
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HootTheOwl posted:It is. They actually mean about 10,000 years. It coincides with the invention of writing and everything before that is considered prehistoric! With the clarification "recorded history" you could split the difference but it'd still probably be closer to 5,000 years ago than 10,000 years ago. Unless the art on the structures of Gobekli Tepe counts as recorded history in which case we're looking at more like 12,000 years ago. stringless fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Nov 25, 2020 |
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Nov 25, 2020 11:19
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^--- I apologize for fueling this derailDapper_Swindler posted:thats more of a historical thing. basicaly alot of historians and such believe alot of the gospels(the canonical 4 and the others) share a ton of similar stylings and poo poo that they believe that their was probably a bigger volume of work about jesus that got passed around and that the stories changed over time a bunch. like : Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John have different audiances and are trying to prove different points and poo poo, mostly because they were written at different times and poo poo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel#Canonical_gospels Yeah, the existence of the Q document is not a gnostic thing. That is, it's not a lost secret version of the Bible. It's just a slightly earlier "version" of the the Gospels that are really similar to one another (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) that has the stuff that Matthew and Luke have in common with each other but not with Mark. The whole point is that it's really similar to lots of texts that survive. Does it matter that it's earlier? Bible Critics are usually pretty wary about claiming that such-and-such is authentic or really what Jesus said because they're very clear-eyed about how the Gospels were compiled decades and decades after the events they describe by people who were not direct witnesses but participants in a mystery religion. They're just not historical documents, and Luther notwithstanding, the actual text of the Bible just isn't the main motivating force for the world's many Christian religious traditions. They rely on traditional interpretations (both Patristics and the writings of somebody foundational to a specific movement like Luther or Calvin or fuckin' William Miller), liturgical traditions (sacraments, recitation of various creeds), and non-canonical devotional works (Tim LaHaye, Joel Ostein's Prosperity Bullshit). If we found the Q document tomorrow (and this would itself be a whole thing, because it's not like a specific document; it's a proposed body of texts or oral tradition or something) we would have a better sense of the syntax of certain Beatitudes ca. 60 CE. It would be really fascinating for people who work on dating early Christian texts and change virtually nothing for anyone else in the world. People have issues with Karen Armstrong as a pop-scholarly writer, but The Bible: A Biography is short and accessible if you don't have a background in theology/bible criticism but want to read up on this.
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Nov 25, 2020 14:34
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betaraywil posted:^--- I apologize for fueling this derail It’s sort of important because Christians nearly constantly lie about these texts and their origins.
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Nov 25, 2020 15:54
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betaraywil posted:^--- I apologize for fueling this derail Exactly. I had the pleasure of taking a class on the origins of Christianity from Michael White, one of the premier scholars on the subject. Basically, scholars know for sure that Mark is the earliest of the gospels and that a lot of the material in the others was likely cribbed from it. So since Mark was one source that they likely cribbed from, but they share other stuff, scholars wonder if the stuff they shared came from yet another source. It probably did, but that source was probably just stories shared among the early Jewish Christians. (The Gospel of John is kind of out in its own worlds with Acts.) Of course, now we just need to wait until the Q cult stumbles across this and spins up some fresh hell out of it. We can probably expect it to be another version of KJV supremacy. Rob Rockley posted:It’s a surprisingly common belief for a religious tradition with two totally contradictory origin myths, which promptly collide with each other on the very first page of the Bible. which is kind of the whole problem with Qanon and other conspiracy beliefs as well: how do you reach someone who has gone so far up their rear end, telling you they’ve done the research and have all the facts, when they clearly ignore what’s right in front of all our faces? I really think that while it’s not a uniquely American problem, Americans are very taken with conspiracy theories because our country was founded by people who got kicked out of Europe for being Bible crazies, and I think that has greatly influenced our relationship with things like obvious facts.[...] Speaking of myths... Only one small part of the country was founded by Bible crazies. The pilgrims were very much just a New England thing. Even once you got to New York their influence wasn't that great. The slavers and traders that set up in Virginia had a lot more more influence in the overall direction of the country for much of its early history. When the original Great Awakenings happened they did a lot more to shape the kind of bible craziness that this country experienced, and the original pilgrims and their Calvinist ilk had very little to do with it.
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Nov 25, 2020 21:15
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betaraywil posted:^--- I apologize for fueling this derail Another good book if you're interested in this kind of thing is Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium by Bart D. Ehrman. It's basically the kind of book that summarizes the scholarly "consensus" (that word may be too strong but you get the gist) on what Jesus probably actually believed for the non-specialist. The short summary is that Jesus (likely) thought the apocalypse was going to happen within his own lifetime and that God was going to overthrow the forces of evil and institute a new kingdom on earth. He spends a lot of time explaining the evidence and reasoning that goes into that consensus. It may sound like a dry topic but I found the book well written and very interesting. HappyHippo fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Nov 25, 2020 |
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Nov 25, 2020 21:57
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^--- Yes, seconding Ehrmanpseudanonymous posted:It’s sort of important because Christians nearly constantly lie about these texts and their origins. I mean, very broadly speaking the major religious traditions have either made peace with Biblical criticism and its findings (Roman Catholicism, Methodism, etc.) or they dismiss it as Satan tricking people who know too much and don't have enough faith (Fundies). We saw this with the "Jesus's wife papyrus" hoax (the story of which is loving great by the way). The Vatican was like "yeah, we have considered that a man in his thirties living in the time and place that Jesus did would probably have had a wife. Our traditions say he didn't. If this is real, it attests that there was a group that thought he did have a wife, but we don't trace our heritage through that group." The Q document (which again, is not in any way indicated to be a literal, discrete document) would contain the same kind of evidence--that of a competing tradition on a subject where 1st century documents have long been considered subordinate to the orthodox theological tradition. (But again, it wasn't a competing tradition; it was a compatible tradition, which is why the material is incorporated into Matthew and Luke.) Whatever truth you're looking for isn't in the Q document.
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Nov 25, 2020 22:13
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Sorry to interrupt, but I'm watching the news and they just broke with breaking that Trump tweeted he pardoned Flynn. I assume that'll give fuel to some Thanksgiving Q drops, or has the importance of Flynn decreased since last year? I remember he was central, at least to the twitteratti.
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Nov 25, 2020 22:18
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HappyHippo posted:Another good book if you're interested in this kind of thing is Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium by Bart D. Ehrman. It's basically the kind of book that summarizes the scholarly "consensus" (that word may be too strong but you get the gist) on what Jesus probably actually believed for the non-specialist. The short summary is that Jesus (likely) thought the apocalypse was going to happen within his own lifetime and that God was going to overthrow the forces of evil and institute a new kingdom on earth. He spends a lot of time explaining the evidence and reasoning that goes into that consensus. It may sound like a dry topic but I found the book well written and very interesting. It's also interesting how many other prophets were out there just like Jesus, leading groups of followers and talking about how the end of the world was coming. This was also a culture on the cusp of a massive revolution, so apocalyptic thinking was pretty common. There's a really interesting book, Rebecca’s Children: Judaism and Christianity in the Roman World that goes into detail about how rabbinical Judaism and Christianity were both basically the products of the same forces at the same time (and greatly shaped each other in their formative periods). EDIT: jojoinnit posted:Sorry to interrupt, but I'm watching the news and they just broke with breaking that Trump tweeted he pardoned Flynn. I assume that'll give fuel to some Thanksgiving Q drops, or has the importance of Flynn decreased since last year? I remember he was central, at least to the twitteratti. Goddamn. It's happened so recently that it isn't even trending on Twitter yet. This will be interesting. LanceHunter fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Nov 25, 2020 |
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Nov 25, 2020 22:19
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HappyHippo posted:Another good book if you're interested in this kind of thing is Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium by Bart D. Ehrman. It's basically the kind of book that summarizes the scholarly "consensus" (that word may be too strong but you get the gist) on what Jesus probably actually believed for the non-specialist. The short summary is that Jesus (likely) thought the apocalypse was going to happen within his own lifetime and that God was going to overthrow the forces of evil and institute a new kingdom on earth. He spends a lot of time explaining the evidence and reasoning that goes into that consensus. It may sound like a dry topic but I found the book well written and very interesting. yeah. there is a short poppish history book by Reza Aslan thats about how jesus was probably just a big disciple of John the Baptist who took off on his own and was basically a slightly smarter Zealot rebel who took the Jewish messiah claimant like the 20 other dudes were doing around that time. the whole temple sacking was about him getting mad at the temple allowing gentiles and overly complicated cleansing rituals. basically his followers invented the resurrection to differentiate themselves from the other failed claiments and than paul co-opted and changed the messaging to get a roman/greek audiance and to distance it from its Jewish origins because of the Jewish rebellions. https://www.amazon.com/Zealot-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/0812981480/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=zealot&qid=1606339803&s=books&sr=1-1
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Nov 25, 2020 22:29
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LanceHunter posted:Goddamn. It's happened so recently that it isn't even trending on Twitter yet. This will be interesting. I just checked for myself and yeeeep: https://twitter.com/3days3nights/status/1331714828663140358?s=20
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Nov 25, 2020 22:46
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I don't have anything to add I just wanted to say thanks, this discussion is interesting as hell
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Nov 25, 2020 22:48
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jojoinnit posted:I just checked for myself and yeeeep: What does November 11th signify ?
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Nov 25, 2020 22:49
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