|
Oh and I'm sorry for calling you dumb up there that was a legitimate bad on my part and really childish quick reaction.
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 09:50 |
|
|
Nemesis Of Moles posted:I'm in the rpg streaming community, I'm friends with many in the community, the person who made the chart is a v big member of the community. No one on my feed thinks it's a call out or attack. Everyone in the community seems to like it. On your feed. Unfortunately, she blasted it out to an entire hashtag much larger than just your feed. And you can agree with it, but that doesn't make it any less of an attack in substance. It just means you're okay with it. Mr. Maltose posted:It’s bad because your criticism of this person has word choice often used to diminish and silence black and especially black female voices and has unfortunate racist connotations that I do not think you’re using purposefully but are still using! would you like to provide some support for this other than "oh you sound like you're being racist because white people criticizing black women sounds racist a lot and is informed by racist attitudes frequently." I'm aware of this, but you aren't actually substantiating anything, you're just shitposting and adding nothing but white noise. quote:And for someone tired of white mediocrity you are carrying a vast amount of water for this dude who is white and honestly mediocre. As I pointed out previously, I find that he's got a lot of good critical and design work when it comes to RPGs.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:03
|
|
|
No I'm looking at the hashtag and I'm still seeing mostly positive reactions from lots of people. It's really only alexander giving it a go and the message from white and streamers of color seems to be gently caress off I dunno which community is being attacked if it's just you and him and his followers reading it as one. Like do you believe Alexandrian really has a strong and vested interest in uplifting streamers of color? That he genuinely believes this will harm that community? The same community he's calling racist and who are actively rn near universally telling him to gently caress off? Maybe you think that but like I dunno I'd go about it differently if it were me Nemesis Of Moles fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Nov 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:05
|
|
|
Dexo posted:https://twitter.com/bleongambetta/status/1332494274907279362 Leon-Gambetta admits to being biased in one of the tweet chains Tree originally linked to, that he felt Alexander talked down to him and didn't help him like he deserved as a person of color. For that reason, I'm not taking his tweets here as any form of truth because he's already mentioned he has an axe to grind about this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:06
|
|
|
^^^^ Oh my loving god with the "he already didn't like him therefore his criticism is invalid."Arivia posted:Again, she's blocked off all responses. He doesn't have the opportunity to DM her, or respond to her tweet. She has left Alexander with no other way to respond, and she intentionally does so, even with a flourish in her follow up tweet! She hadn't blocked him, so he could've DM'd her. Him QRTing her is a form of response. In fact, that's how you frame it right above these words I'm typing. For someone who declaims about the nature of Twitter, you sure don't seem to know how Twitter works, so maybe sort that out. Good night for real.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:06
|
|
|
I’m not going to diagram your posts for what I’m hoping are accidental dog whistles, no. Like, your specific word choices about attacks and aggression are the issue, not that you are white? Have you honestly never encountered this concept before?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:07
|
|
|
lmao "this person of color posts in a way i dislike, therefore their opinion is invalid" really incredible work
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:08
|
|
|
Nemesis Of Moles posted:No I'm looking at the hashtag and I'm still seeing mostly positive reactions from lots of people. It's really only alexander giving it a go and the message from white and streamers of color seems to be gently caress off A lack of negative responses (or a plurality of positive responses) does not mean any criticisms are any less valid or meaningful, come on! This is basic logical statement poo poo. That Old Tree posted:^^^^ Oh my loving god with the "he already didn't like him therefore his criticism is invalid." You're right, I used response to mean two different things and I was unclear. Alexander was able to respond to her publicly by quote-retweeting her. However, she had cut off any ways for him to actually have a conversation with her - DMs are not always open, and he couldn't directly enter dialogue with her by responding (in the Twitter technical term sense) to her tweet itself. So she has challenged the community and closed herself off from any responses she doesn't want to read, either ones she sees as worth her time or from people she already agrees with. That was her choice. That directly blocks her off from any criticism, and intentionally so.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:11
|
|
|
Right 'accidental' dog whistles in a series of posts calling a black woman making a pretty loving harmless chart that boils down to 'look if you don't know the person doing the project maybe be aware of being used as a token by someone who wants to look like an ally without actually doing ally poo poo' an 'attack' and accusing her of gaslighting people when she outright says 'this is just a general kinda thing I'm not saying everyone who isn't following this is bad' and saying that another person of color is inherently too biased to talk about him because he said he felt talked down to once before. Purely accidental dog whistles.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:11
|
|
|
Alexander-senpai isn't going to notice you no matter how much you defend his honor.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:12
|
|
|
Serf posted:lmao "this person of color posts in a way i dislike, therefore their opinion is invalid" we're like five posts away from 'I feel unsafe from that tweet I'm calling the cops'
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:12
|
|
|
Mr. Maltose posted:I’m not going to diagram your posts for what I’m hoping are accidental dog whistles, no. Like, your specific word choices about attacks and aggression are the issue, not that you are white? Have you honestly never encountered this concept before? womp womp. yes this is totally loaded coded language because I'm calling an attack an attack, it's definitely founded in racist ideas of black women being too aggressive and too loud. gently caress off with this bullshit, jesus christ. you don't actually have any substance you're just going "but these words LOOK similar to ones I heard were racist once." @sexpig by night: and the same to you, again, no substance, no actual reading of the issue or the thread, just baseless attacks.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:14
|
|
|
I'm here to build this community and support it as best I can, primarily by alienating myself from the entirety of it via intentionally inflammatory tweets. I am obviously very serious about this and not at all barely hiding my actual intents. No one has any obligation to engage with this with any seriousness and honestly there's more than it's worth here. If you care about protecting or uplifting marginalized streamers, @BGGameWorks is run by Misha and often highlights shows and voices that need support. Leon also rules and I recommend the follow there too. Nemesis Of Moles fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Nov 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:14
|
|
|
Nemesis Of Moles posted:I'm here to build this community and support it as best I can, primarily by alienating myself from the entirety of it via intentionally inflammatory tweets. I am obviously very serious about this and not at all barely hiding my actual intents. yeah this is an excellent question you should ask it to the person who posted the chart, you said you were mutuals right? you can actually have a dialogue with her!
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:15
|
|
|
Arivia posted:womp womp. yes this is totally loaded coded language because I'm calling an attack an attack, it's definitely founded in racist ideas of black women being too aggressive and too loud. the substance to your posts are stupid bullshit so I'm responding with stupid bullshit. I dunno, sucks to suck I guess.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:16
|
|
|
KingKalamari posted:Was he the one that did that article about 4e that coined that weird "gamist/narrativist/simulationist" rhetoric?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:17
|
|
|
Arivia posted:yeah this is an excellent question you should ask it to the person who posted the chart, you said you were mutuals right? you can actually have a dialogue with her! Just quoting this for the lol at the implication of you and Alexandrian being the entirety of the streamers of color community
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:19
|
|
|
i think the chart is dumb, but also i'm an idiot so who cares. the important thing is that i, and everyone else not named justin alexandrian, managed to avoid having an hours-long meltdown over it. it is very funny that he is so mad about it, we should just laugh at him folks also imo this guy is just a sideshow to wotc's "we're going to incrementally tone down the racism in d&d over the course of several years" bullshit
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:19
|
|
|
Sorry I didn’t want to dedicate my energy to breaking down your loving walls of text to hi light all the times you’ve engaged in racist framing in your language which, trust me, I have had the displeasure of dealing with beyond “hearing about it once”. I will endeavor to do better in life I guess
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:19
|
|
|
I wrote a pretty big article about Co-Ops in ttrpgs if anyone would be interested in checking it out or talking about some of the ideas in there. Bringing new economic models to the scene is something I'm doing a lot of work in rn and it's rad to see so many smaller ad hoc co-op groups springing up
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:22
|
|
|
Mr. Maltose posted:Sorry I didn’t want to dedicate my energy to breaking down your loving walls of text to hi light all the times you’ve engaged in racist framing in your language which, trust me, I have had the displeasure of dealing with beyond “hearing about it once”. I will endeavor to do better in life I guess You didn't just waste your energy, you wasted mine as well. If you're not coming to actually engage, discuss things and help out, why are you doing this? Like for me it makes my ADHD-riddled brain happy because fighting on the internet makes endorphins, but if you have energy based concerns and can't follow through then just don't post and make the thread much simpler and less fighty? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:22
|
|
|
Because a normal loving person would maybe take a moment and consider they’d done something wrong instead of demanding an itemized list of every transgression, but you literally admitted you do this because you like having poo poo fights on the Internet. Go to hell. Even if I did what you wanted that’s just another platform for you to launch more fights from because this is ultimately a game for you. It is a source of endorphins for you. I’m sorry I couched my language and suggested you examine things instead of just telling you to gently caress off like everyone else.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:26
|
|
|
Nemesis Of Moles posted:I wrote a pretty big article about Co-Ops in ttrpgs if anyone would be interested in checking it out or talking about some of the ideas in there. Bringing new economic models to the scene is something I'm doing a lot of work in rn and it's rad to see so many smaller ad hoc co-op groups springing up I'm interested! I've heard a couple criticisms about them, so I'd be interested in the positives as well. You were part of San Jennaro, right? @Mr. Maltose: byeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:31
|
|
|
Nemesis Of Moles posted:I wrote a pretty big article about Co-Ops in ttrpgs if anyone would be interested in checking it out or talking about some of the ideas in there. Bringing new economic models to the scene is something I'm doing a lot of work in rn and it's rad to see so many smaller ad hoc co-op groups springing up I'm interested largely in that platforming small creators is a thing I'm eager to do more of.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:33
|
|
|
Okay sorry I hate it when people say "I'm done" and then come back, but, well, it's not like I've never been a hypocrite before.Arivia posted:A lack of negative responses (or a plurality of positive responses) does not mean any criticisms are any less valid or meaningful, come on! This is basic logical statement poo poo. Hey, so I'm going to directly challenge this bullshit. No. Do not squirm away. You are clearly evading the substance of my post here. Needing to wait for mutual status to DM or even resorting to QRT in no way forced Alexander to type the specific words he did. That's it, there's no actual question here.  In my limited and nebulous capacity as IK I regret everything and will say this to the whole thread: I do actually have to Go Away for at least an hour, and I implore you all that the sniping is done, even if you're on the Correct Side with me, so please tone it down unless and until someone breaks out the N-word or posts recursive goatse with personal ID accidentally reflected in the mirror. I assume Leperflesh is for now blissfully unaware of my crimes here and is doing things like being with his family or even better his cats. I don't get to see the reports about how bad I am, but I can be PM'd with issues (that I will see in an hour+ from now). I will be ashamed if I come back later and have to give my first sixers because people can't stop shitposting about a dumb tangent I started. I am not against a good page or two of dunking on 100% villains, but I don't think Arivia is that so please talk about FLGSs again or Nemesis' co-op or something. If it must be racism in games, please post sensitively and substantively. I'm sorry if this comes off as threatening or abusing my meager power, I'm new and probably bad at this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:34
|
|
|
Edit: did not see the post right above mine.
thetoughestbean fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Nov 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:34
|
|
|
Nemesis Of Moles posted:I wrote a pretty big article about Co-Ops in ttrpgs if anyone would be interested in checking it out or talking about some of the ideas in there. Bringing new economic models to the scene is something I'm doing a lot of work in rn and it's rad to see so many smaller ad hoc co-op groups springing up I would be very interested, as I’ve been trying to get a co-op for miniature production set up. I know it’s a totally different space, but part of the whole goal is demistifying the processes behind production and equipping people to make their own representative minis.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:35
|
|
|
That Old Tree posted:Okay sorry I hate it when people say "I'm done" and then come back, but, well, it's not like I've never been a hypocrite before. Oh, I didn't know that's what you meant. I thought you meant the twitter threading status. Yes, he chose to write those words himself out of his own volition and to handle the subject like that. I did agree with you previously that he wasn't being very tactful, I'm sorry if it appeared like I was trying to avoid or evade your point. I agree with what I'm understanding of it now.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 05:36
|
|
|
 MODPOSTHi folks. I do not particularly want to weigh in on the topic at hand. I don't feel qualified to do so, nor do I really have time. I think it's entirely within the scope of this thread to post about how a TG Industry Person of Note is tweeting. An ensuing discussion of the nature and severity of one or more TG Persons of Note's responses, history, and correctness or wrongness, is also appropriate for the thread. However, I expect the conversation to be civil. I know there is a long history between various posters, and it can be extremely difficult not to indulge in your beefs while you address a topic that your enemy is taking a Wrong Position on. I believe all sides have had plenty of opportunity to make their points by now, and also that nobody is being especially convinced further, so I'm asking for this particular conversational thread to be over. Especially parting shots at your posting enemies. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Nov 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 07:11
|
|
|
Here's the article I mentioned! https://sandypuggames.medium.com/sandy-pugs-co-op-manifesto-f741e7f77af4?source=your_stories_page------------------------------------- Be warned that it's a bit rambling and titled a manifesto rather than a how-to guide, the idea was to give people a high level idea of what to expect rather than a full write up of like, internal structures or democratic voting systems or w/e. Largely what I'm trying to do is get people curious enough in the process and model of collective work (and the little subsystems like shared profits and co-op design processes) to start investigating and thinking things out on their own - one of my favourite responses to this was someone's thread on how to hypothetically structure a co-op's workflow to enable more traditional format projects, accidentally laying out almost an exact 1-to-1 diagram of how SPG functions as a company. Nemesis Of Moles fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Nov 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2020 17:36
|
|
|
Nemesis Of Moles posted:Here's the article I mentioned! Thank you for posting it! Gif use is A+. I found myself nodding along to a lot of what you had to say, and it made me want to finish some of my own writing so I could put it out there. I also really love the leader-boss point, because that really does get lost a lot of the time in conversations around businesses and such. (It can also be really easily perverted too, the school I used to work at would reference "leader vs boss" all the time, and they always ended up on the boss side anyways) "We're not faceless cogs, we're comrades" is a phrase I really like, and part of me wants to keep that in my head for the next time I'm working on a project with other folks.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 16:58
|
|
|
Qoey posted:Thank you for posting it! Gif use is A+. I found myself nodding along to a lot of what you had to say, and it made me want to finish some of my own writing so I could put it out there. I also really love the leader-boss point, because that really does get lost a lot of the time in conversations around businesses and such. (It can also be really easily perverted too, the school I used to work at would reference "leader vs boss" all the time, and they always ended up on the boss side anyways) "We're not faceless cogs, we're comrades" is a phrase I really like, and part of me wants to keep that in my head for the next time I'm working on a project with other folks. One of the biggest struggles I have when I try to consult people through this process, especially when its people who already vibe with headless organizing or non-hieratical structures is getting them to realize that leadership is still a critical role, it's just distributed around a lot more and you don't get to have the final say. It's a really easy trap to fall into, inevitably leading to frustration on everyone's behalf - the person-who-would-be leading things annoyed at the lack of action from the group, and the group annoyed at the lack of direction. I think this article was the first time I've properly articulated the need there, so hopefully it'll be easier next time. Would love to read what you're working on too!
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 17:06
|
|
|
Zereth posted:GNS theory predates 4e. GNS predates a ton of things, including Ron Edwards. It came from Usenet advocacy groups. 4e brought it to the fore as it is commonly cited by haters as a misapplication of GNS.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 17:51
|
|
|
Serf posted:i think the chart is dumb, but also i'm an idiot so who cares. the important thing is that i, and everyone else not named justin alexandrian, managed to avoid having an hours-long meltdown over it. it is very funny that he is so mad about it, we should just laugh at him folks Don't forget the part where they're going to sell the reduced racism. If you don't want to pay for less racism in D&D, gently caress you.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 18:00
|
|
|
Has there been any good retrospective on Tom Kirby and GW? I remember the death thread from a few years back being pretty entertaining and Kirby is out and GW seems to be on an upswing but I don't know or remember the specifics.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 18:35
|
|
|
food court bailiff posted:Has there been any good retrospective on Tom Kirby and GW? I remember the death thread from a few years back being pretty entertaining and Kirby is out and GW seems to be on an upswing but I don't know or remember the specifics. I would also love an article/history on this time period.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 18:37
|
|
|
food court bailiff posted:Has there been any good retrospective on Tom Kirby and GW? I remember the death thread from a few years back being pretty entertaining and Kirby is out and GW seems to be on an upswing but I don't know or remember the specifics. It's not about Tom Kirby specifically, but someone on /r/hobbydrama wrote up a pretty good summary of the Sigmar debacle.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 18:42
|
|
|
hyphz posted:GNS predates a ton of things, including Ron Edwards. It came from Usenet advocacy groups. See, this is why I used the qualifier "I think." I pretty much discounted GNS immediately on looking at it as an obscuring mechanism designed to give assholes the tools to call whatever game they liked the good one and any other games the bad one. I honestly don't even remember which one the good one was.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:38
|
|
|
hyphz posted:GNS predates a ton of things, including Ron Edwards. It came from Usenet advocacy groups. Properly speaking, USENET had the Threefold Model, or GDS, for Gamist/Dramatist/Simulationist. Ron Edwards invented GNS by renaming Dramatist to Narrativist. theironjef posted:I honestly don't even remember which one the good one was. Narrativist. The one he renamed was the good one.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 09:50 |
|
|
Gamist is obviously the good one. The real root of the problem with GNS is that it was advanced primarily by simulationists, which is by far the least viable mode to build a game on. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:53
|
|
