|
MazelTovCocktail posted:I’m going to have to watch the Broncos today. Last year the Panthers almost had to do the same thing in the final game of the season, they ran out of quarterbacks due to injuries. Good thing they sucked and weren't going to the playoffs.
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 19:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 19:54 |
|
|
Grip it and rip it posted:Doesn't that have a pretty solid foundation of truth though? Usually in my experience, those who go with that line use it as a whataboutism response to any critique of capitalism. Usually if you point out issues brought about due to capitalism(Triangle Trade, Africa/India/New World colonialism,etc,etc). Instead of an honest critique of Stalinism/Maoism as it happened. My main thrust though, is any jackass who is gonna make a sweeping claim like "secularism has done nothing wrong" is probably the same sort who will drat communism as a mass murder machine even though arguably the USSR was the most secular of secular societies. edit: In short M_Gargantua posted:Its a worthless comparison because every form of government has killed a ton of people Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Nov 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 19:17
|
|
|
Grip it and rip it posted:Doesn't that have a pretty solid foundation of truth though? Efforts at modernization in Communist countries did kill a lot of people. Forced collectivization and the Great Leap Forward both come to mind as policies that resulted in staggering body counts that may have been defrayed if the respective governments of the USSR and China had been a bit more practical. I suppose there is a pretty strong argument that due to the lack of farming mechanization in both of those countries it wouldn't have mattered whether they were communist or not, though it is my understanding that profit motive is what drove farming mechanization in the first place. Sure if you ignore the destruction the EIC did to India and the genocide of the indigenous peoples of North and South America and all of the people still dying today from solvable problems you could make the case for communism being worse than capitalism
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 19:23
|
|
|
Grip it and rip it posted:Doesn't that have a pretty solid foundation of truth though? Efforts at modernization in Communist countries did kill a lot of people. Forced collectivization and the Great Leap Forward both come to mind as policies that resulted in staggering body counts that may have been defrayed if the respective governments of the USSR and China had been a bit more practical. I suppose there is a pretty strong argument that due to the lack of farming mechanization in both of those countries it wouldn't have mattered whether they were communist or not, though it is my understanding that profit motive is what drove farming mechanization in the first place. That was more Stalins doing that Communisms. The transition could've been done without the bodycount but Stalin didn't give a gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 19:26
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:That was more Stalins doing that Communisms. The transition could've been done without the bodycount but Stalin didn't give a gently caress. Is there any good account of the rise and fall of communism that isn’t from rightwing chuds, but also isn’t written by someone with tankie tendencies?
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 19:31
|
|
|
Yeah, I guess the merit of the critique is more as a direct examination of the policies of Stalin / Mao vs. the west. It's kind of impossible to compare the impact of policies that existed for such disparate lengths of time and took root in countries with economies in wildly different states. There is something to be said for the success of the third agrarian revolution and the impact that it has had on the world with respect to famine. Pretty dramatic improvement to the carrying capacity of the entire planet accomplished within the course of a generation. Though yeah, there are about a million different capitalist enterprises that could rightly be pointed to as a blight across the earth.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 19:32
|
|
|
not caring here posted:So he paid about 35 grand per extra Biden vote poo poo, if that’s what he wanted, more than a few NO JOEs would have caved for that kind of cash.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 19:33
|
|
|
Platystemon posted:poo poo, if that’s what he wanted, more than a few NO JOEs would have caved for that kind of cash. lol, don't be silly. Starting point for basically a inconsequential bribe should be two years wages.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 19:38
|
|
|
Richard Bong posted:Is there any good account of the rise and fall of communism that isn’t from rightwing chuds, but also isn’t written by someone with tankie tendencies? Its a good question, I don't know of one off the top of my head.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 19:44
|
|
|
Defenestrategy posted:lol, don't be silly. Best I can do is student loan forgiveness for Pell grant recipients who start a business that operates for three years in a disadvantaged community.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 19:50
|
|
|
Basically anything worthwhile in a communist country was originally developed in a capitalist country.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:03
|
|
|
PeterCat posted:Basically anything worthwhile in a communist country was originally developed in a capitalist country.  Yeah.....no. This is the same viewpoint that led to Sputnik and the race to the moon.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:13
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:
USSR did not develop a single thing, except maybe for some random world ending weapon, that the West did not do first and much better. I don't think people realize how badly communist systems suppress innovation in favor of bureacracy and party loyalty.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:30
|
|
|
Bunch of idiots on this page not understanding the difference between ideology and implementation. The autocratic command economy and despotic government of the USSR got to like step 2 of the whole communism process.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:36
|
|
|
Meshka posted:USSR did not develop a single thing, except maybe for some random world ending weapon, that the West did not do first and much better. I don't think people realize how badly communist systems suppress innovation in favor of bureacracy and party loyalty. quality troll
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:37
|
|
|
Meshka posted:USSR did not develop a single thing, except maybe for some random world ending weapon, that the West did not do first and much better. I don't think people realize how badly communist systems suppress innovation in favor of bureacracy and party loyalty. Why invent a pen that works in 0 g when you can just use a pencil. *Blasts wood shavings into space that will gently caress up a satalite 30 years from now*
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:41
|
|
|
Nuclear War posted:quality troll Well I was born and lived in USSR and one of the post callapse countries and had family working for the government. Surprise, surprise, human nature always overrules systems except in this case you have two opposite approaches clashing and stalling everything. If you sucked enough upwards, you may get to pick one of two car models available to the public and a basket of oranges for Christmas.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:44
|
|
|
Meshka posted:Well I was born and lived in USSR and one of the post callapse countries and had family working for the government. Surprise, surprise, human nature always overrules systems except in this case you have two opposite approaches clashing and stalling everything. If you sucked enough upwards, you may get to pick one of two car models available to the public and a basket of oranges for Christmas. poo poo, more than I got from my post collapse capitalist country. Got a bud fresh from Guatamala, and her experience matches not getting much out of it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:51
|
|
|
Meshka posted:Well I was born and lived in USSR and one of the post callapse countries and had family working for the government. Surprise, surprise, human nature always overrules systems except in this case you have two opposite approaches clashing and stalling everything. If you sucked enough upwards, you may get to pick one of two car models available to the public and a basket of oranges for Christmas. Please get therapy dude
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:53
|
|
|
KirbyKhan posted:Why invent a pen that works in 0 g when you can just use a pencil. *Blasts wood shavings into space that will gently caress up a satalite 30 years from now* I mean, we were using pencils too until Fisher developed the Space Pen using his own money. Meshka posted:Well I was born and lived in USSR and one of the post callapse countries and had family working for the government. Surprise, surprise, human nature always overrules systems except in this case you have two opposite approaches clashing and stalling everything. If you sucked enough upwards, you may get to pick one of two car models available to the public and a basket of oranges for Christmas.  Sorry you had to live in the shadow of Man of Steel, but the reality is most of what you experienced had more to do with what Stalin did to Socialism than what Socialism did you to.Meanwhile in Capitalism land, we get the façade of "Progress" that hides a system largely falling apart as the wealthy exploit the other 99% of the populace. Meshka posted:USSR did not develop a single thing, except maybe for some random world ending weapon, that the West did not do first and much better. I don't think people realize how badly communist systems suppress innovation in favor of bureacracy and party loyalty. The perfected a rocket engine that Western Engineers called impossible. Dude, most of what you are talking about was a result of Stalinism. There's a long list of innovations that happened in the Soviet Union. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Nov 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:54
|
|
|
Stingwing posted:Please get therapy dude Because he thinks Soviet communism was a pile of destructive garbage? Lol.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:55
|
|
|
Stingwing posted:Please get therapy dude lol what
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:55
|
|
|
Stingwing posted:Please get therapy dude What the gently caress is this? I am enjoying people implementing the no true scotsman defense for the world's most successful and visible foray into communism. Playing that game it seems like no one has done it very successfully, and so they all must be disowned. Reality also very much gets in the way of the implementation of the ideal capitalistic system Edit: Sorry the tone of this came out wrong. The point I am trying to make is that performing a direct comparison of the two systems doesn't seem like it's ever going to be possible, given all the other significant factors that go into the success of a nation state Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Nov 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 21:56
|
|
|
Stingwing posted:Please get therapy dude Oooook lol.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:00
|
|
|
Literally saying "Well, actually...  " about the Soviet Union to a former citizen of the Soviet Union. Incredible posting energy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:04
|
|
Western exceptionalism is a hell of a drugVincent Van Goatse posted:Literally saying "Well, actually... I don’t see a problem with it. Their claims are outrageous and one persons anecdotes does not an objective truth make.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:04
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:Literally saying "Well, actually... Dude, he claimed that the Soviet Union invented nothing the West already had. Which is blatantly false. Its not "Well, Actually..." if the claim is so outrageous to downplay a lot of medical, scientific, and engineering work that happened in the Soviet Union. Including the first Tokamak, the first modern Multi-stage Rocket, and the first Orbital rocket, the first Fast Neutron reactor, just to name a few. Yes the Soviet Union was a lovely place, but to claim that the USSR was "behind" was literally the technological argument that led to the Space Race, because it turns out they were not some backwards society lacking in technology and science. They were just a lovely, oppressed place ruled by a dictator who ensured corruption was a key part of his re-imagining of the Communist system. Seriously, Stalin openly encouraged bribery, turning on one another, and corruption. Its practically HOW he came to power from the Secretary General position. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Nov 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:09
|
|
|
OP is right, it is a triumph of capitalism that we have more than two types of car, That we are using to slowly poison and bake the entire planet, including the former soviets. take that lenin 
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:10
|
|
|
The most prominent global implementations of capitalism and communism all have a record of enthusiastic genocide and environmental devastation. Anyone pretending otherwise is in denial.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:17
|
|
|
Meshka posted:USSR did not develop a single thing, except maybe for some random world ending weapon, that the West did not do first and much better. I don't think people realize how badly communist systems suppress innovation in favor of bureacracy and party loyalty. Except stealth, accidentally and without even knowing until years later. Vincent Van Goatse posted:Literally saying "Well, actually... No kidding, this is amazing. Godholio fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Nov 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:18
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS5_EQgbuLc
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:18
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:Literally saying "Well, actually...  Ok dude
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:19
|
|
|
In other news I delighted my wife by having had the foresight to pick up a bottle of bubbly wine before things got crazy, thus saving a household Christmas season tradition of ours. I had actually bought it for just in case dumbfuck donnie fell to the 'rona
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:19
|
|
|
Stultus Maximus posted:The most prominent global implementations of capitalism and communism all have a record of enthusiastic genocide and environmental devastation. Anyone pretending otherwise is in denial. Completely agree, ideally countries should strive to find a balance between offering financial, education, and health protections for their citizens and the freedom to work hard and innovate and earn the rewards from it. I like the scandinavian model a lot, but they are also smaller countries and Norway has a lot of oil. I think it can be done though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:20
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Dude, he claimed that the Soviet Union invented nothing the West already had. Which is blatantly false. Its not "Well, Actually..." if the claim is so outrageous to downplay a lot of medical, scientific, and engineering work that happened in the Soviet Union. There's a difference between saying they were behind and saying they were an atechnical backwater. They were behind, in almost everything (and a lot of this is due to the effort thrown into the space race in the US after Sputnik). In many fields Russia still is. Only in the past few years have they been fielding jet engines comparable to what we put in F-15s in the 70s. If we're going to clamp down on hyperbolic descriptions of things that hit close to home we'd better shut this whole loving thing down.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:23
|
|
|
It's almost like humans suck
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:24
|
|
|
Back in the early aughts I dated a Ukrainian who immigrated to NY in the early 90s and she had very specific memories of the mid 1980s and oranges being like the best present you could get for Christmas.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:24
|
|
|
Godholio posted:There's a difference between saying they were behind and saying they were an atechnical backwater. They were behind, in almost everything (and a lot of this is due to the effort thrown into the space race in the US after Sputnik). In many fields Russia still is. Only in the past few years have they been fielding jet engines comparable to what we put in F-15s in the 70s. Behind IN SOME THINGS is not behind in everything. And let's be honest: Our investments in Jet Engine tech for fighters wasn't exactly something to be proud of, since we're practically on the same path as the Soviets wasting a large portion of our GDP on military tech we don't need.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:26
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure crates of citrus fruits are a christmas tradition in the anglo world, too I think it's just kind of fallen out of fashion, but getting oranges for christmas was a real-rear end thing in the US like 30 or 40 years ago
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 19:54 |
|
|
The problem isn’t the type of society, whether it’s socialist or capitalist or communist. The problem is orange juche posted:It's almost like humans suck And it doesn’t matter what system we come up with. This isn’t to say we shouldn’t try, but I’ve always believed humans are just inherently lovely.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2020 22:29
|
|
