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a primate posted:We are certainly not doing this to be nice. the 2015 federal election spun on the dime of accepting more syrian refugees, so it may actually just be the fact that canadians broadly support it and it doesn't cost the government a huge amount to maintain
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Dec 1, 2020 05:55
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a primate posted:This Is probably a profoundly stupid question, but what exactly is or has been the government stance on immigration? Weve been slowly increasing numbers for a couple decades now (~300,000 in 2016), so its clear several governments are pro-, but what is the reason? if your population isnt growing its dying. you have to offset the effects of the population aging and Canadians arent exactly having a lot of children, on average. More population means more tax base, more productivity, more exports, etc. Your number isnt net migration so its not really the whole picture. Canadas pop growth is not high even with these immigration levels, and its lower than the States. theoretically economic migration works like a reverse brain drain where we bring in skilled labour to match shortages. in reality of course it doesnt work out so neatly and many immigrants end up doing lovely jobs that Canadians dont want rather than going into their field, at least in the short term.
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Dec 1, 2020 06:28
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a primate posted:This Is probably a profoundly stupid question, but what exactly is or has been the government stance on immigration? Weve been slowly increasing numbers for a couple decades now (~300,000 in 2016), so its clear several governments are pro-, but what is the reason? why not? It's not like we are running out of land or food. Canada is a net exporter of food, it's better for the environment if the people come here and eat it instead of wasting fossil fuels exporting it.
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Dec 1, 2020 06:52
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a primate posted:This Is probably a profoundly stupid question, but what exactly is or has been the government stance on immigration? Weve been slowly increasing numbers for a couple decades now (~300,000 in 2016), so its clear several governments are pro-, but what is the reason? Also in environmental terms, Canada is going to be more...durable in the face of climate change than a lot of other nations, so it's a moral imperative to let as many people come here as possible who will otherwise be underwater/in a drought
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Dec 1, 2020 11:04
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Mameluke posted:Also in environmental terms, Canada is going to be more...durable in the face of climate change than a lot of other nations, so it's a moral imperative to let as many people come here as possible who will otherwise be underwater/in a drought yep, when northern california's climate becomes that of the outback, vancouver's climate will be that of northern california
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Dec 1, 2020 11:52
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Arivia posted:The problem is, sometimes theyre the exact same. Ed Greenwood, creator of the Forgotten Realms (the biggest D&D setting) lives in Lindsay, and his work is often Ontarian as gently caress. oh my god you totally just blew our minds
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Dec 1, 2020 14:52
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Also note Canada has like some of the highest, most stringent, immigration standards in the world. This is not a wretched refuse of your teeming shore situation.
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Dec 1, 2020 15:10
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Stickarts posted:Also note Canada has like some of the highest, most stringent, immigration standards in the world. This is not a wretched refuse of your teeming shore situation. Yea Im not anti-immigration but the conventional wisdom seems to be that a contracting population is bad and needs to be remedied by immigration and Im just wondering why that is. Im sceptical that the Conservatives are in favour of high immigration levels because its a moral imperative... this doesnt seem very on brand for them. As someone suggested, I guess it could be that its a popular policy and nothing more. But I suspected there was some other, probably economic, benefit to immigration thats really driving the trend.
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Dec 1, 2020 15:26
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You don't need a reason to be "pro immigration" because borders are imaginary and migration is the natural state of the world
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Dec 1, 2020 15:26
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a primate posted:Yea Im not anti-immigration but the conventional wisdom seems to be that a contracting population is bad and needs to be remedied by immigration and Im just wondering why that is. Cheap labour that you can force to live and work in your Tim Horton franchises is why cons love em
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Dec 1, 2020 15:29
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a primate posted:Yea Im not anti-immigration but the conventional wisdom seems to be that a contracting population is bad and needs to be remedied by immigration and Im just wondering why that is. good news, Starks answered your question Starks posted:if your population isn’t growing it’s dying. you have to offset the effects of the population aging and Canadians aren’t exactly having a lot of children, on average. More population means more tax base, more productivity, more exports, etc.
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Dec 1, 2020 15:29
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infernal machines posted:good news, Starks answered your question I missed that. Thanks Starks!
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Dec 1, 2020 15:32
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a primate posted:Im sceptical that the Conservatives are in favour of high immigration levels because its a moral imperative... this doesnt seem very on brand for them. think of it like a more efficient form of imperialism. rather than go into other countries and extract their wealth we simply invite the best people they have to come here and make the wealth for us
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Dec 1, 2020 15:49
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a primate posted:Yea Im not anti-immigration but the conventional wisdom seems to be that a contracting population is bad and needs to be remedied by immigration and Im just wondering why that is. It is about economic benefits. It's also not some conspiracy, "economic benefits" is how it's sold to the population, and when you're an immigrant going through the naturalization process you are basically told "you are here because you are a benefit to the economy". Sorry to link you wikipedia but I think you'll find this article informative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_immigration_to_Canada If you're talking about refugees, sure, it's framed as a moral imperative, but again there are more cynical economic benefits, and refugees only account for a small portion of immigrants, around ~14 percent. This is where Conservatives take a more reactionary approach - Harper increased the number of refugees while reducing their healthcare benefits, and Scheer campaigned on reducing the level of refugees but it didn't go well. That's another thing - being anti-immigration here comes with a significant political risk. As for why a contracting population is bad, a country's first priority is ensuring it's own existence. If the population is contracting, all else being equal, that country will eventually cease to exist.
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Dec 1, 2020 16:00
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a primate posted:Yea Im not anti-immigration but the conventional wisdom seems to be that a contracting population is bad and needs to be remedied by immigration and Im just wondering why that is. From a national/demographic perspective it's pretty straightforward. We have an aging population (thanks baby boom) and we aren't having enough babies to meet our replacement rate. With zero immigration, our population would shrink and we would run into tax base problems over time as the non-working population of children and pensioners would steadily grow higher than our working population of middle-aged adults. Immigration is a safety valve that brings in workers in the prime of their working life to inject labour and money into our economy and prop up the aging older generations. I hate making the economic utilitarian argument for immigration, but it exists and you hear it from well-intentioned but stupid liberals in the US all the time: hey don't be xenophobic and anti-immigration, don't you know immigrants help the economy? Personally, I hate this argument because it implies that we shouldn't admit anyone who's not going to be a net gain for national tax revenue, which I think is a morally repugnant stance, but you'll see it get made all the time. If your country has an aging population but doesn't admit immigrants to make up the difference, you face economic problems. You can still overcome them with some real work, but it's tricky. This is the situation Japan has been in for a while now--their population is getting really old but they aren't having many children and they admit very few immigrants. As a result you see big changes like a huge rise in automation, with (for instance) caregiving robots working in old-age homes because they don't have enough working-age adults to fill those jobs. But not every country can rely on that kind of model working out for them. Certain politicians also see immigration as a chance to have the optics of morality and multiculturalism, welcoming newcomers to a nation of immigrants blah blah blah. In practice, our immigration system is set up so that permanent immigration is highly restrictive, and we have all kinds of loopholes to get rid of immigrants we don't want to live here forever. The most egregious is the Temporary Foreign Worker program, which basically says "yeah come here and give us your prime working-age labour in the worst jobs we have to offer, then gently caress off again because we don't want to pay for you when you get old or sick." In my opinion that's the logical endpoint of the pro-economy immigration argument, which is why I think it's worth making the moral case for immigration as often as possible. Otherwise we end up with people saying "if all immigrants are good for is boosting the economy to balance against our aging population, then we might as well only admit temporary indentured servants." vyelkin has issued a correction as of 16:04 on Dec 1, 2020 |
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Dec 1, 2020 16:01
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mediaphage posted:oh my god you totally just blew our minds I'm glad but I'm also sad to report I was wrong. I asked Ed Greenwood on Twitter and he said the name Kossuth came from TSR, and wasn't his invention.  MY COOL IDEA IS GONE
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Dec 1, 2020 16:02
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just extend citizenship to all of mankind. everyones Canadian now. Badda bing problem solved and we technically took over the world
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Dec 1, 2020 16:42
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I think the PPC is a good example of while there's a lot of regressive, reactionary thought in Canada, for whatever reason being anti-immigration isn't something that is super popular with the conservative base.
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Dec 1, 2020 17:02
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enki42 posted:I think the PPC is a good example of while there's a lot of regressive, reactionary thought in Canada, for whatever reason being anti-immigration isn't something that is super popular with the conservative base. *and sometimes you get some BS like Kenney blaming South Asian communities for COVID spread without accounting for their higher employment in public-facing jobs
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Dec 1, 2020 17:18
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The easiest way to immigrate here is if you have money, so it also seems like our immigration system is set up to siphon money and credentialed citizens from other countries. Also the whole Canada becoming a better breadbasket as climate change hits is probably wrong, given the rate at which we're paving over our farmland.
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Dec 1, 2020 17:25
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https://twitter.com/338Canada/status/1333762445928771589 checks out.
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Dec 1, 2020 17:29
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Dreylad posted:The easiest way to immigrate here is if you have money, so it also seems like our immigration system is set up to siphon money and credentialed citizens from other countries. not only the farm paving, atmospheric warming isn't going to result in a smooth increase in average temps leading to lush farms it's going to result in chaotic, relentless weather fluctuations that get progressively worse the idea of having a long-term advantage due to climate change is just insane, at best we'll get a few good growing seasons out of it before poo poo gets really wild and we end up with like weird weeds choking out all the canola or locust swarms or some other garbage
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Dec 1, 2020 17:32
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lol, the BC reality distortion field is intact. Everyone is over the moon happy with their 12% positivity rate.
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Dec 1, 2020 17:33
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Dreylad posted:The easiest way to immigrate here is if you have money, so it also seems like our immigration system is set up to siphon money and credentialed citizens from other countries. this is very true in southern Ontario. Tract housing uber alles Also thanks for replying in earnest to my dumb babby question, its much appreciated
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Dec 1, 2020 17:34
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becoming a better breadbasket due to climate change is a foolish assumption based off of reading increased temperatures and thinking that'll be a nice steady stable increase instead of the reality which will be amplified violent swings like we've already seen with the polar vortex in wintertime. no more stable weather patterns makes it a hell of a lot harder for plants to determine their reproductive season and in general fucks them up. plus all the issues like an unseasonably early or late frost crippling crop production any given year there's also a million other food production issues that will come up due to climate change (increased precipitation means bigger storms which wash away topsoil, hella dependence on fossil fuels for every bit of the food supply chain, etc) Canada is definitely in a lot better position than other countries, but we're all still gonna be hosed e: beaten by blatman
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Dec 1, 2020 17:34
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blatman posted:not only the farm paving, atmospheric warming isn't going to result in a smooth increase in average temps leading to lush farms it's going to result in chaotic, relentless weather fluctuations that get progressively worse the great lakes region is going to be the best place to live in a climate apocalypse. it might not be as nice as it is now, but it will be better than anywhere else on earth
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Dec 1, 2020 17:41
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enki42 posted:lol, the BC reality distortion field is intact. Everyone is over the moon happy with their 12% positivity rate. It's so hosed. But I don't know how you adjust the general public's perspective when basically everything is still open. My partner's work is healthcare adjacent and most of their clients are immunocompromised, and they still have in-person meetings and group lunches. When the government is sending mixed messages, people will hear what they want. https://twitter.com/j_mcelroy/status/1333625530348814336?s=20 You can still go out for dinner, and eat indoors in Fraser Valley South. What message is that sending? Edit: also note we don't do widespread testing of kids in schools and kids are more likely to be asymptomatic so who knows how many kids have covid but have been missed. In Toronto, 4% of asymptomatic students at one school tested positive for covid.
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Dec 1, 2020 17:44
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Also there's no contact tracing here unless you go to a restaurant and they remember to ask you to fill out the form with your phone number on it and the person who is infected remembers to tell the restaurant they were there after finding out they've got covid lol
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Dec 1, 2020 17:59
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gently caress COREY PERRY posted:becoming a better breadbasket due to climate change is a foolish assumption based off of reading increased temperatures and thinking that'll be a nice steady stable increase instead of the reality which will be amplified violent swings like we've already seen with the polar vortex in wintertime. no more stable weather patterns makes it a hell of a lot harder for plants to determine their reproductive season and in general fucks them up. plus all the issues like an unseasonably early or late frost crippling crop production any given year Also agricultural suitability isn't as simple as "higher temperatures = better growth, bing bong so simple", you have to take into account a ton of different factors that will either not change no matter how warm it gets (hours and intensity of sunlight, soil quality, etc.) and factors that will change even more unpredictably than temperature (duration and intensity of rainfall, invasive species, etc.). Climate change is gonna gently caress us up no matter how much warmer central Alberta gets, and the idea of turning into the world's breadbasket just because our temperatures will go up a little is lol there may be something to saying that Canada will do better than other places in climate change, but that's not related to expanding farmland, it's related to things like having a lot of land and few people, having abundant natural resources to exploit if global supply lines break down, having adequate existing agricultural production that might be more resilient to climate change than other places, being geographically less susceptible to some climate-affected natural disasters like hurricanes, and having oceans on three sides--but even those theoretical advantages don't guarantee any protection from our declining hegemon neighbour and climate change will make a lot of other things way worse, like to provide just one example they're already making wildfires in the West way worse, so thinking "yeah we're gonna be fine even if the rest of the world burns because our winters will be a little less cold" is really naive
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Dec 1, 2020 18:03
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blatman posted:not only the farm paving, atmospheric warming isn't going to result in a smooth increase in average temps leading to lush farms it's going to result in chaotic, relentless weather fluctuations that get progressively worse That's an even better point. Someone posted in D&D CanPol ages ago a research project by the University of Winnipeg (I think) that tracks and projects climate change on the praries and our breadbasket is going to get way hotter which really fucks with plant growth. The key to having a climate that is amenable to growing crops is a climate that is predictable. Unpredictable weather is brutal for farming. edit: beaten repeatedly
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Dec 1, 2020 18:16
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Hey look, proof that 30% of Albertans would rather die than criticize a conservative government.
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Dec 1, 2020 18:17
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ontario is way too high
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Dec 1, 2020 18:22
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Dreylad posted:ontario is way too high i feel like theres been a propaganda campaign using the gross incompetence of Kenney to make Ontario look so much better.
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Dec 1, 2020 18:24
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Pretty dumb poll question. Im dissatisfied the actions arent more extreme, but this would be interpreted as being against the measures.
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Dec 1, 2020 18:24
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Fashionable Jorts posted:i feel like theres been a propaganda campaign using the gross incompetence of Kenney to make Ontario look so much better. Idk about that but as usual I've heard a lot of canadians comparing themselves to america smugly. "Sure it's bad, but could be worse like the USA eh?"
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Dec 1, 2020 18:25
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a primate posted:Pretty dumb poll question. Im dissatisfied the actions arent more extreme, but this would be interpreted as being against the measures. yeah its very ambiguous. I would probably say yes if asked because I wouldnt want my answer to be used to justify rolling back measures.
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Dec 1, 2020 18:27
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Cold on a Cob posted:"Sure it's bad, but could be worse like the USA eh?" canada.txt
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Dec 1, 2020 18:32
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Cold on a Cob posted:Idk about that but as usual I've heard a lot of canadians comparing themselves to america smugly. "Sure it's bad, but could be worse like the USA eh?" This is BC but Alberta instead of USA 
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Dec 1, 2020 18:37
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Starks posted:yeah its very ambiguous. I would probably say yes if asked because I wouldnt want my answer to be used to justify rolling back measures. Same, crappy response bias
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Dec 1, 2020 18:38
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Dreylad posted:ontario is way too high Ontario is a lot like Ohio or Michigan: populated modern cities with vast swaths of redneck in between.
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Dec 1, 2020 18:43
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