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Jakabite posted:Corbyn did gently caress up but it was solely by being too nice. If the stupid nice lovely old gently caress would’ve just purged the poo poo out of the right of the party and told the press to gently caress off he might’ve got somewhere. Exactly. If he had done a quarter of the things he was accused of (deselection - Nope, purging - Nope, filling the shadow cabinet with cronies - Nope, driving Berger & Ellman out of the party - Nope they left of their own accord and Berger has form for this - check out her NUS past, Stalinist - Nope) it would have gone better. Seems the best thing he could have done was get shot of McNicol though that was probably also out of his remit. Starmer's doing nearly all the things Corbyn was accused of and where are the press? Nowhere. I voted RLB as the best of a lacklustre bunch of candidates but all 3 of them sold the Palestinians down the river the second they signed up for the demands of the tory BOD. (If I were in a political position - which I never will be because I don't pretend to care who wins a stupid football match or to eat cornish pasties from non-existent pasty shops, or who wins Strictly Come Cake Off or whatever - I would refuse to sign up to ANY pledges from ANY organisation because it always has unintended consequences. And if I were party leader I'd ban all the candidates from signing pledges originating with any specific* organisations.) *by which I mean it is fine to sign up to uphold human rights or other principles, but by organisation A or organisation B - nope. There's always something about organisation A or B which you have missed. Page snipe:  Suitably: 23 skidoo (sometimes 23 skiddoo) is an American slang phrase popularized during the early 20th century. It generally refers to leaving quickly, being forced to leave quickly by someone else, or taking advantage of a propitious opportunity to leave. The exact origin of the phrase is uncertain. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Dec 4, 2020 |
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Dec 4, 2020 14:49
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Ash Crimson posted:Lol imagine genuinely being this naive One learns. Slowly. And at the time I was much more down on Corbyn than I am now. therattle fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Dec 4, 2020 |
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Dec 4, 2020 14:50
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I don't get how tweets like that don't go viral. The PM of grate Britane is a murder furry and no one cares.
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Dec 4, 2020 14:56
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Regarde Aduck posted:I don't get how tweets like that don't go viral. The PM of grate Britane is a murder furry and no one cares. it goes on to basically out bojo as another conservative that likes to masturbate while thinking of himself as something like a military man do like ‘murder furry’ tho
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Dec 4, 2020 15:00
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Gort posted:what would you have done differently is my question do what he said he was doing. the messaging we as members were getting is that ok sure things were rocky but the party was being reshaped, the ground game would matter, we werent gonna make the blair mistake of not having any succession lined up etc. instead the party is still a complete shambles and we lost catastrophically anyway looking back on the corbyn years theres a lot to dislike in the cold light of day now, loads of compromising on the economics right away (running a loving SURPLUS????) and, while there was an incredibly hostile faction sabotaging everything and i think we would have won 2017 without that, its quite clear corbyn wouldnt have been able to lead the party if he'd won and the right started digging their heels in against him. one thing the anti-corbyn or neutral-to-anti-corbyn factions pointed out that seems to be true was communication between the leadership office and the rest of the party was complete poo poo and it ended up souring everyone who wasn't already inclined to sabotage. so imo corbyn's faction was also incompetent, which makes sense, he is a labour party MP after all. e: i think "he was too nice" is part of it, but even that is basically just code for "he was bad at leadership". it was a potentially once in a lifetime chance to save lives and enrich the country and he wasn't willing to go to the mat for it Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Dec 4, 2020 |
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Dec 4, 2020 15:08
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fwiw i respect corbyn, as the only committed anti-racist MP i've ever seen as a party leader, more than maybe any other MP but i still think hes a daft old fucker who hosed it
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Dec 4, 2020 15:15
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You cannot lead people who do not wish to be and will not be lead. In normal life, people choose to allow themselves to be lead in exchange for their pay packet or desire to see change. It is quite apparent that the PLP did not wish to see change and their paypackets are independent of the leadership of their parties as technically they are self-employed and their paypackets depend on the electors in their constituencies. I remain convinced that had Labour won the last election under Corbyn, there would either have been a mass switch to FKTIG shortly afterwards by labour MPs or another coup attempt. At that point the PLP would have got their feet under the gravy train table for another 5 years. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Dec 4, 2020 |
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Dec 4, 2020 15:17
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:You cannot lead people who do not wish to be and will not be lead. agreed but both bojo and kier have ideas about what to do with those you can't lead but unfortunately corbyn respected the PLP, which given the revelations in the corbynista report... is extremely damning in itself he wasn't the man the time needed, i'd still go back and vote for him again though cause what else was there, now we don't even have that. e: do wanna watch Strictly Come Cake Off though Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Dec 4, 2020 |
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Dec 4, 2020 15:21
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Just lmbo if you voted for Kier. Absolute dumbest motherfuckers - you could tell he was an absolute centrist weapon right from the start. Charitable take: hopefully you've learned your lesson. haakman fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Dec 4, 2020 |
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Dec 4, 2020 15:26
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Ash Crimson posted:Lol imagine genuinely being this naive I know a lot of people who bought into the idea of 'forensic lawyer ANNIHILATES oaf prime minister with FACTS and LOGIC' but then it turned out it was literally that episode of the thick of it where they decide to agree with two of the government's worst policies to show they're not afraid of making tough decisions
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Dec 4, 2020 15:32
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Give therattle a bit of credit, they've admitted it was a gently caress up. From our position as extremely online UKMT thread goers it's easy to say that, but not everyuone had that vantage point.
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Dec 4, 2020 15:33
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The left wing press were absolutely pushing Starmer as the sensible saviour of Labour and bigging up his 'soft left' credentials, because they're not really left wing and shouty people like Dennis Skinner scare them.
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Dec 4, 2020 15:37
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Which... left wing press?
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Dec 4, 2020 15:38
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The ones that aren't actually left wing.
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Dec 4, 2020 15:40
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the left wing press was a terrifying device installed in corbyns office to crush jews and sensible centrists
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Dec 4, 2020 15:40
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Guavanaut posted:The ones that aren't actually left wing. So like... the guardian, maybe?
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Dec 4, 2020 15:41
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Yeah, the ones that keep being referred to as left wing by wider society because they don't openly call for all Travellers to be put on prison ships and the Navy to park a destroyer in Bradford to look for illegal refugee grooming gangs.
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Dec 4, 2020 15:45
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the sex ghost posted:I know a lot of people who bought into the idea of 'forensic lawyer ANNIHILATES oaf prime minister with FACTS and LOGIC' but then it turned out it was literally that episode of the thick of it where they decide to agree with two of the government's worst policies to show they're not afraid of making tough decisions I did. I still think he does a decent job at PMQs - much better than Corbyn. But then yes, he does exactly what you describe, so what does it matter?
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Dec 4, 2020 15:48
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Hey, I never voted for Starmer but I attended his 1st Zoom call as party leader, along with 7000 other members and was broadly impressed with him - he seemed sincere, grounded and genuine about wanting to unite the party and move forwards after our election defeat. Fast-forward 8 months and I've left the party and dislike and utterly mistrust the man, it's been quite the wild ride. It IS impressive just how badly he's screwed up his initial task - uniting the party and providing a clear sense of direction - and just how short a time frame he's managed all that in.
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Dec 4, 2020 15:55
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The nominally 'left' people who voted Starmer despite it being plainly obvious he was a centrist melt are the dumbest motherfuckers on the planet, it was only ever going to go this way and we've been warming you from the very loving beginning. My favourite genre of this is the 'still convinced Starmer is a, lefty playing 4D chess' school, advanced furiously by such Twitter heavyweights as Shaun Lawson. The left did need a better candidate than RLB though. She's not bad as such but she seemed a lack the charisma she was trying to project and she capitulated with the rest on them on the BOD stuff. ^^ the only thing I'm still unsure of is whether he's the 'haha gently caress the left trots out give me your cummies daddy Blair' brand of centrist melt or the 'I'll do or say anything just please vote for me please am I good enough now please stop hitting me' brand of centrist melt ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Dec 4, 2020 |
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Dec 4, 2020 15:55
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Richard Burgon for leader imo
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Dec 4, 2020 16:01
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ThomasPaine posted:The nominally 'left' people who voted Starmer despite it being plainly obvious he was a centrist melt are the dumbest motherfuckers on the planet, it was only ever going to go this way and we've been warming you from the very loving beginning. I initially thought he was playing a long game, strategically, (eg by not actually advancing any concrete policies and sticking to opposing current government ones) but nope, it looks like he's just loving up. He isn't even opposing particularly effectively.
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Dec 4, 2020 16:02
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Yeah, I voted for RLB, although with some reluctance: I thought she was the best of an underwhelming bunch but lacked the force and drive to really take charge of the party. Her reaction to being sacked for that tweet just confirmed my opinion of her, obediently scurrying off out of the public eye without making any attempt to fight such an obvious injustice against her.
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Dec 4, 2020 16:02
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therattle posted:I did. I still think he does a decent job at PMQs - much better than Corbyn. But then yes, he does exactly what you describe, so what does it matter? He doesn't though. Look at the last few PMQs with Corbyn - once the braying mob of gammon is removed he looked so much better.
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Dec 4, 2020 16:08
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Be careful about placing too much weight on PMQ's - the pundits love it but the general public neither watch nor care about it (I think the tv audience is 250,000 people or something). Starmer can clobber Johnson as much as he likes at the despatch box - nobody's noticing it and it doesn't translate into polling gains for Labour.
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Dec 4, 2020 16:14
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Corbyn caused Johnson to lose his first 8 major votes in parliament too. Starmer caused 0, even when there may have been an odd chance.
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Dec 4, 2020 16:18
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therattle posted:I initially thought he was playing a long game, strategically, (eg by not actually advancing any concrete policies and sticking to opposing current government ones) but nope, it looks like he's just loving up. He isn't even opposing particularly effectively. I think his policy strategy is "Do what the tories do and hope that over time people get so fed up with the tories that they vote Labour to get the tories out without noticing there's no difference" It may work
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Dec 4, 2020 16:19
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VideoGames posted:Corbyn caused Johnson to lose his first 8 major votes in parliament too. Man, I miss those days, when we talked about the prospect of Johnson being the shortest termed PM in history and losing all his votes and so on.
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Dec 4, 2020 16:22
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therattle posted:I initially thought he was playing a long game, strategically, (eg by not actually advancing any concrete policies and sticking to opposing current government ones) but nope, it looks like he's just loving up. He isn't even opposing particularly effectively. interesting - i thought the circuit breaker argument was astute, given tory mps then lined up on the radio to say what a disaster lockdown two was and how a more limited lockdown would have worked. otherwise I think hes rightly playing the long game in the sense that a GE is 4 years away and in the meantime, why interrupt your enemy when hes making a mistake? bojo spent years as the most popular politician, skilfully transcending party lines on hignfy and as mayor of london then bolstering that with support for brexit. after theresa may there was huge pent up enthusiasm for a communicator pm with a sense of humour and a willingness to turn on the spending taps such that none of corbyn, starmer or john smith would have won last december. a year on, bojo has lost support across the country and in his own party, the pall of sleaze surrounding his govt is thickening and he still has a covid recession and brexit to see through. if youre starmer youre praying bojo stays in post rather than gets replaced by the 1922 committee
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Dec 4, 2020 16:42
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Breath Ray posted:otherwise I think hes rightly playing the long game in the sense that a GE is 4 years away and in the meantime, why interrupt your enemy when hes making a mistake? Because: 1. It costs lives 2. If you don't oppose policies that kill people, you share the blame 3. If people are pissed off at the policies that kill them, they will not vote for you as you are no alternative to those policies as you did not oppose them In most of these situations Labour hasn't had enough votes to prevent the tories passing horrible legislation anyway, so it's not like opposing them would even have prevented their fuckups. All it would do is say, "We would not gently caress up like this, had we the option", but Starmer can't even do that.
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Dec 4, 2020 16:44
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don't forget it's the left who are constantly treating politics like a game and not something that matters
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Dec 4, 2020 16:47
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Gort posted:Because: the circuit breaker was an example of 'we would not gently caress up like this' imo. im not very politically engaged but that sense of being proven right very soon after the event got through to me. in any case we seem to agree on starmer's non-interventionist route to power: Gort posted:I think his policy strategy is "Do what the tories do and hope that over time people get so fed up with the tories that they vote Labour to get the tories out without noticing there's no difference"
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Dec 4, 2020 16:55
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I don't see why I would vote for someone who has no interest in opposing the government.
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Dec 4, 2020 16:58
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I could see voting Starmer, but only after weighing up who my local MP candidates are. I wouldn't just vote for Labour regardless any more.
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Dec 4, 2020 17:01
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what do you do if your local MP is Starmer
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Dec 4, 2020 17:03
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It’s doubtful I’ll vote for Labour to be honest. I’m a proponent of not just voting for someone as lesser of two evils, as it allows the window to be dragged ever further right. Meet me in the middle, says the unreasonable man etc.
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Dec 4, 2020 17:05
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I'll be voting Labour in the Senedd elections in May. The local candidate is a not only a personal friend but a fabulous candidate who will do an excellent job.
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Dec 4, 2020 17:07
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peanut- posted:what do you do if your local MP is Starmer Abstain.
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Dec 4, 2020 17:09
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Being in a safe Labour seat, I'm probably gonna vote Plaid for a bit. Not sure what I'd do in a swing seat.peanut- posted:what do you do if your local MP is Starmer Totally unrelated, I forgot to take almost all of my annual leave this year so I'm now done with work for over a month  Beers are on me
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Dec 4, 2020 17:13
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I'm in what used to be a safe Labour seat but the new parachuted-in candidate only won by 200 votes last time so I really don't know whether to vote for her or the Greens next time, if only I was a couple of miles south I'd have Zarah Sultana who I could vote for with a clean consciencepeanut- posted:what do you do if your local MP is Starmer move
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Dec 4, 2020 17:20
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