|
RagnarokAngel posted:Im a Jew but I think you are underestimating how much the Covenant of God stuff has an impact on Christianity. Christianity had its start as a Jewish sect, and there were even discussions about if you had to adopt Jewish practices or even be Jewish to be a Christian (rather wisely the decision was "no" as circumcision would likely be a non starter). I totally get why you'd think that, but covenant was not a term of great emphasis in early Christian theology! It absolutely is a thing now, but it's relatively new (I couldn't say precisely how new; my theological strongpoint is early Christianity). When Church Fathers do bring up covenants, it's (again, broadly speaking) either: 1) As a marker of distinctively Jewish thought/rhetoric when contrasting a Christian and a Jew 2) As part of a typological reading of Hebrew Scripture (e.g. "The two tables of Sinai foretell G-d's covenants sealed by Abraham and Christ, and the one sealed by Christ is way better") In both cases, the point is to delineate the old and the new, generally presenting the old as inferior or incomplete or (because they hung out with Platonists) corrupted by material concerns. (This formulation goes on to inform two millennia of anti-Jewish polemic.) That's coming out of precisely the moment you identify, the circumcision crisis, during which Church authorities (Paul) rejected Temple-and-Hierarchy Judaism in favor of Hellenized Judaism (and ultimately Hellenized Whateverism). Early Christian engagements with Judaism are overwhelmingly about performative rejection and the assertion of superiority. Nobody's talking about a personal covenant with God until (evidently, he said scanning a Wikipedia page) the 16th century. That's old enough to have a (significant) impact on the contemporary evangelical Christian theology of conversion (although these tend to embrace a radical break with any tradition older than 19th c revivalist movements), but about a thousand years too late to represent foundational continuity with Judaism and Islam. (I don't know very much about the early development of Islam or contemporary Jewish communities in Arabia and how much theological exchange there was.) Anyway, my original point was that we can't blame a unique Christian emphasis on conversion (because it isn't unique) for the Satanic panics of the twentieth century (which were hugely influential on Chick; LanceHunter is 100% correct in identifying the Ligma-theory-of-conversion thing as a manifestation of Satanic panic). We can blame the gnostic character of Christianity, which has been consistent but was reasserted and emphasized in a particular (and particularly fragile) form by revivalists in the 19th century US. And of course this charismatic vein in American Protestantism was coming against the backdrop of anti-Masonic panics, nativist/anti-Catholic panics, and other identitarian and political conspiracies. Because nothing is ever new. Ed. what a horrible snipe, have a kitty being injected with government nanotracers 
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 16:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 11:31 |
|
|
Oh I wasn't blaming evangelism for satanic panic! Just that Abrahamic religions are generally unique in requiring you to confirm your belief and are not as Syncretic as say, Buddhism or Hinduism which occupy a ton of different belief systems and you can basically just say you follow one of those and it counts, you don't have to goto a Priest/Rabbi/Imam and get it confirmed. This of course is not the only reason for religious violence, I was just specifically honing in on the "Guy claims he got into Hinduism" thing because its not really a system you just "convert" to like you would Catholicism.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 16:27
|
|
|
RagnarokAngel posted:Oh I wasn't blaming evangelism for satanic panic! Just that Abrahamic religions are generally unique in requiring you to confirm your belief and are not as Syncretic as say, Buddhism or Hinduism which occupy a ton of different belief systems and you can basically just say you follow one of those and it counts, you don't have to goto a Priest/Rabbi/Imam and get it confirmed. I dunno, does anyone ever like...check your credentials to go to mass? I can only really speak for one small branch of protestantism (lutheranism) but in the couple churches I went to as a kid, there was no bouncer at the doors. Nor was there in the handful of Catholic ceremonies I've sat/stood/kneeled through. (Unless we're not looking at this from a secular viewpoint, and I'm conflating with 'welcomed as part of the congregation' with 'allowed into whatever bioware-morality-style-good-afterlife your religion has')
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 16:30
|
|
|
RagnarokAngel posted:Oh I wasn't blaming evangelism for satanic panic! Just that Abrahamic religions are generally unique in requiring you to confirm your belief and are not as Syncretic as say, Buddhism or Hinduism which occupy a ton of different belief systems and you can basically just say you follow one of those and it counts, you don't have to goto a Priest/Rabbi/Imam and get it confirmed. Oh word yeah Ed. Marx Was A Lib posted:I dunno, does anyone ever like...check your credentials to go to mass? Yes, but only for divorced women.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 16:44
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:Well yeah, but the conspiracy theory was that Obama would suspend the Constitution and enact martial law and was believed by the exact same smooth brained people that believe that Trump should suspend the Constitution and enact martial law. Yeah man, totally the same. One guy never said or hinted at it, while the other is trying a coup, but you're right, we're all just idiots.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 16:49
|
|
|
RagnarokAngel posted:Oh I wasn't blaming evangelism for satanic panic! Just that Abrahamic religions are generally unique in requiring you to confirm your belief and are not as Syncretic as say, Buddhism or Hinduism which occupy a ton of different belief systems and you can basically just say you follow one of those and it counts, you don't have to goto a Priest/Rabbi/Imam and get it confirmed. You should blame evangelism though because the Satanic Panic was started to cover the abuse and murder of kids by the church.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 16:50
|
|
|
betaraywil posted:Yes, but only for divorced women. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 16:50
|
|
|
pop fly to McGillicutty posted:Yeah man, totally the same. One guy never said or hinted at it, while the other is trying a coup, but you're right, we're all just idiots. I think you need to reread that post
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 16:50
|
|
|
Marx Was A Lib posted:I can only really speak for one small branch of protestantism (lutheranism) but in the couple churches I went to as a kid, there was no bouncer at the doors. Nor was there in the handful of Catholic ceremonies I've sat/stood/kneeled through. For Catholics, Lutherans and a handful of other denominations, you can attend whatever service you want, but they won't let you fully participate in communion if you don't meet their requirements; for example, Missouri Synod Lutherans won't let visiting ELCA Lutherans take communion because the Missouri Synod considers the ELCA too permissive, and if a stranger shows up at the altar without having told the pastor beforehand that they're from a sister church, they'll only be given a blessing The Chairman fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Dec 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 17:37
|
|
|
HappyHippo posted:I think you need to reread that post Turns out, it was my smooth brain all along. Perhaps I'm Q?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 17:46
|
|
|
The Chairman posted:For Catholics, Lutherans and a handful of other denominations, you can attend whatever service you want, but they won't let you fully participate in communion if you don't meet their requirements; for example, Missouri Synod Lutherans won't let visiting ELCA Lutherans take communion because the Missouri Synod considers the ELCA too permissive, and if a stranger shows up at the altar without having told the pastor beforehand that they're from a sister church, they'll only be given a blessing my catholic god parents compare it to McDonalds. you can go to any church/parish/etc and get basically the same thing. if actually could believe in stuff id probably be catholic because my weird goon brain likes the ritual and history and find it comforting but i don't believe in any of it outside weird historical/nerd interests.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 18:11
|
|
|
The Chairman posted:For Catholics, Lutherans and a handful of other denominations, you can attend whatever service you want, but they won't let you fully participate in communion if you don't meet their requirements; for example, Missouri Synod Lutherans won't let visiting ELCA Lutherans take communion because the Missouri Synod considers the ELCA too permissive, and if a stranger shows up at the altar without having told the pastor beforehand that they're from a sister church, they'll only be given a blessing
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 18:33
|
|
|
Christians can't even agree on or hold themselves to Christ's teachings like "if you're rich you're not going to heaven" so even if Jesus laid out in painstaking detail every single little thing, they'd get it wrong.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 18:40
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:I remember when Obama was definitely going to do that and it was terrible. You reminded me of when Trump met with Kim Jong Un and Hannity praised him, there was a video going around on Twitter showing Hannity a few years back saying how it would be a disaster for the president to meet with North Korea, it would be a terrible idea, how could he even think about it? Hannity addressed it a few days later, and his reasoning was "The reason I said it would be bad for the president to meet with Kim Jong Un is because Obama was a bad president. Trump is a good president, though, so it's good for him to meet with Kim Jong Un." The Chairman posted:For Catholics, Lutherans and a handful of other denominations, you can attend whatever service you want, but they won't let you fully participate in communion if you don't meet their requirements The church I went to as a kid let anyone take communion if they wanted it, but (and I didn't know this because I was like 6) apparently Catholics can't take communion from non Catholic churches. So when my dad's side of the family was visiting us and came to our church on a day we happened to be having communion, when the trays got passed to them instead of taking it they just made a cross sign with their fingers. Which I guess is the sign for "We're Catholic so we're not touching it."
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 19:19
|
|
|
Marx Was A Lib posted:I dunno, does anyone ever like...check your credentials to go to mass? By "requirement" I meant that ostensibly the idea is you need to commit to it and mean it for it to count for the sake of your eternal soul. If you believe that stuff, it doesn't matter if someone is checking because you know the big guy will know. If you don't believe in that stuff why would you even bother? The crackers arent good enough to be worth stealing. You can go if you want, and that's sort of the goal, they re hoping to draw people in, but in the spiritual sense doing any of it is pretty useless because God will know. pop fly to McGillicutty posted:You should blame evangelism though because the Satanic Panic was started to cover the abuse and murder of kids by the church. Evangelism is the doctrine that preaching the word and seeking out converts is a good work, what you're talking about Evangelicalism, specifically the American variety. RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Dec 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 21:16
|
|
|
Twelve by Pies posted:You reminded me of when Trump met with Kim Jong Un and Hannity praised him, there was a video going around on Twitter showing Hannity a few years back saying how it would be a disaster for the president to meet with North Korea, it would be a terrible idea, how could he even think about it? I was raised Catholic, and while true, because Protestant communion is not transformed by a priest with true apostolic succession, it is just bread and wine, right? The reverse would seem worse, sullying your soul with evil papist magic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 21:31
|
|
|
Protestant churches (at least the only ones I've ever been to) use grape juice, not wine. The one I went to also for a long time used piece of bread cut up into little squares, though when I got older they started using the white wafers. But yeah, Protestants aren't into transubstantiation. They just think it's a symbolic ritual. Then of course there's Lutherans, who believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the bread/wine, but that it's not actually transformed, so neither other Protestants nor Catholics are with them. Anyway since you asked I wasn't sure and looked it up, there's a couple of articles that talk about how it's not good for Catholics to take communion at non Catholic churches. quote:The Lord is present under the appearance of bread and wine and there are conditions to receiving Holy Communion. These are explained by St. Paul, who wrote: “So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Cor 11:27). quote:“Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone.” So while evangelicals would definitely have the idea of "evil papist magic tricking you into a satanic ritual" for Catholics it's more "They're not qualified to give you communion and you shouldn't be doing something that might be mistaken for approval of their incorrect beliefs."
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 22:01
|
|
|
Twelve by Pies posted:The church I went to as a kid let anyone take communion if they wanted it, but (and I didn't know this because I was like 6) apparently Catholics can't take communion from non Catholic churches. "This is My body, broken for you...unless it's handed out by a fiend who believes any of the following list of heresies: Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Donatism, Pelagianism..." "...Docetism, Premellinarianism, Athanasianism, Homoeanism, Heterousianism, Anomoeianism, Iconoclasm, Catharism--"
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2020 22:14
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:"This is My body, broken for you...unless it's handed out by a fiend who believes any of the following list of heresies: Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Donatism, Pelagianism..." I lol'd. Btw the difference between Catholic eucharist and Lutheran/Anglican communion is Catholics believe in transubstantiation and protestants believe in consubstatiation. Which is a lot more than an iota of difference! (Little theological joke there for the fans)
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 01:03
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:"This is My body, broken for you...unless it's handed out by a fiend who believes any of the following list of heresies: Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Donatism, Pelagianism..." Well there goes an hour of my life reading up on lesser known varieties of Christianity on Wikipedia
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 01:12
|
|
|
nonathlon posted:Syrian civil war, with the government using chemistry weapons and secret police? Clearly we should support Assad and their heroic Russian allies! Or Iraq building weapons of mass destruction in mobile laboratories? Clearly we should support peaceful Saddam!
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 01:23
|
|
|
Enjoy some qanon mental gymnastics:quote:Barr said what he did because the election process/ voter fraud needs to go through the courts. Laws have been passed to make voter fraud legal. It's not Barr's job to deal with the laws that have legalized voter FRAUD. It is the courts job, to over turn those laws, so we have a protected and solid voting process in the US. Barr knows this. The courts are the only way forward. Trump has appointed over 300 judges and now we have the supreme court. This is so important.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 02:08
|
|
|
It's becoming increasingly clear that election FRAUD is not our country's immediate concern, but rather TREASON on a massive scale that involves bad actors in domestic agencies and ranks of government who've conspired with foreign governments. President Trump must do several things in order to clean house and restore justice and order: 1) Just as Lincoln did during the Civil War, he must suspend habeas corpus to conduct mass arrests of those guilty of treason. 2) He must then take action as Commander in Chief to exercise control over the military and enact military tribunals to try these acts of treason. 3) He must invoke his September 12, 2018 Executive Order on Imposing Sanctions in the Event of Foreign Interference of an Election to seize control of all propagandizing media outlets 4) He must repeal Section 230 thereby disabling social media companies from censoring conservatives on matters such as these 5) He must initiate the Emergency Broadcasting System to reach all Americans to ensure a sense of safety and maintain direct communication 6) He must enact Martial Law and deploy the Army National Guard in key cities to maintain order 7) He must maintain civil relations with other countries such as to prevent an all out war when exposing conspiracies with other governments At this point, the military is the only way to save the homeland.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 04:33
|
|
|
quote:4) He must repeal Section 230 thereby disabling social media companies from censoring conservatives on matters such as these This one is always great, you can tell they don't actually know what Section 230 is because if it was repealed they would get censored even harder so that companies could avoid legal liability for their posts (not that they're really getting censored now, just that if they think they are it would be so much worse without it).
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 05:15
|
|
|
Twelve by Pies posted:Protestant churches (at least the only ones I've ever been to) use grape juice, not wine. The one I went to also for a long time used piece of bread cut up into little squares, though when I got older they started using the white wafers. But yeah, Protestants aren't into transubstantiation. They just think it's a symbolic ritual.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 14:00
|
|
|
The only way to protect our democracy is to utterly destroy it and instal a military dictatorship where wrong think and voting wrong gets you dragged to a military tribunal show trial. Only then will we truly be free
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 14:21
|
|
|
Fame Douglas posted:Or Iraq building weapons of mass destruction in mobile laboratories? Clearly we should support peaceful Saddam! Quoting a month-old post out of the blue to simp for Assad? Shameful.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 16:07
|
|
|
Antifa Turkeesian posted:Evangelical christians are great because they’re constantly besieged by powerful magic of all kinds and their god is too weak to stop it or protect them. Witches can make my game of dungeons and dragons better and compel my dad to get me all the books for it. What the gently caress can Jehovah do? He needs people to burn Kiss records for him or else he’ll vanish like Captain Planet after he falls into a smokestack. quote:"Should Christians stay away from yoga because of its demonic roots?" asked megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Washington state. "Totally. Yoga is demonic. If you just sign up for a little yoga class, you're signing up for a little demon class."
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 17:29
|
|
|
Mad Hamish posted:Just imagine how even crazier the unhinged conspiracies around Jade Helm 15 would have been had Qanon been a thing under Obama's administration. I can't, I just can't. The Texas Governor called up the Texas State Guard to “observe” Jade Helm 15. The Texas State Guard is like a LARP version of the National Guard where people who couldn’t handle joining the military pretend that they did, and don’t get any of the benefits like healthcare and education and shooting machine guns.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 17:39
|
|
|
Dr. VooDoo posted:The only way to protect our democracy is to utterly destroy it and instal a military dictatorship where wrong think and voting wrong gets you dragged to a military tribunal show trial. Only then will we truly be free what i find funny is watching all the weird libertarian's type chuds like the liberty hangout or whatever going full monarchist and trying to declare trump king.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 18:57
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:what i find funny is watching all the weird libertarian's type chuds like the liberty hangout or whatever going full monarchist and trying to declare trump king. It's almost like they don't have any principles whatsoever and their "libertarianism" is just a sham.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 19:04
|
|
|
Hey all. Spoke with the cult deprogrammer and am working on my video. May be a while - there was a lot covered. Quick things for people who need help: He told me one of the most common (and understandable) mistakes people make when a family member becomes obsessed with conspiracy theories or cults is to react too strongly. Getting angry, calling the group a cult or the person stupid, saying "how can you believe this poo poo?" immediately puts the responder on the defensive. It's better to show concern, but not anger. One technique he talked about was to find a group the individual would consider a cult, and very slowly start drawing comparisons between that group and the one they're in. In the meantime: does anyone have any examples of folks saying the save the children rallies were false flags, or numbers on how many people were at them?
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 19:11
|
|
|
Calico Heart posted:Hey all. Spoke with the cult deprogrammer and am working on my video. May be a while - there was a lot covered. I don't know if you see value in it but I grew up in a cult, so if you have any questions that direct personal experience might answer feel free - though we left when I was 12 so I wasn't that directly involved.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 19:35
|
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:I don't know if you see value in it but I grew up in a cult, so if you have any questions that direct personal experience might answer feel free - though we left when I was 12 so I wasn't that directly involved. I mean, it feels like the most relevant question to ask is: Why did you leave? Was it any particular thing that caused the decision, or just a culmination? Did someone help you get out?
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 20:57
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:what i find funny is watching all the weird libertarian's type chuds like the liberty hangout or whatever going full monarchist and trying to declare trump king. Monarchism has a long history of support among so-called Libertarians because their main values are distrust of democracy and devotion to what they call "natural social elites" (rich white men). See also: Libertarians support of South African Apartheid. A de jure antidemocratic government (good) with white men and especially rich white men on top (also good)* *To Libertarians obviously
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:06
|
|
|
LanceHunter posted:I mean, it feels like the most relevant question to ask is: Why did you leave? Was it any particular thing that caused the decision, or just a culmination? Did someone help you get out? The events in Waco Texas made my mom freak out and get us (but not my dad) out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:20
|
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:The events in Waco Texas made my mom freak out and get us (but not my dad) out. Did you think it was weird or were you too young to understand what was going on
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:24
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Did you think it was weird or were you too young to understand what was going on I thought we were like special chosen people, and I thought eventually everyone in the world would believe what we believed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Madness_Running_Club The thing is.. it really wasn't a "running club" it was 100% a cult with running as a core activity of philosophy of enlightenment/self transformation based loosely on the teachings of Gurdjief (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff) and the drunken musings of a drunk alchoholic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:39
|
|
|
You may be a descendant of the Assassins. Watch out for Templars
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 11:31 |
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:I thought we were like special chosen people, and I thought eventually everyone in the world would believe what we believed. I don’t know if this will come across right, but did your life become relatively ‘normal’ after leaving, or were there still mystic influences and such in your life?
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:53
|
|
