|
gently caress Gaius tbh. The thing he loves is destroying the thing he loves, and that's the best result for an unrepentant fascist.
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 20:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 23:28 |
|
|
I'm not convinced he's unrepentant. If anything it seems he's repentant but struggling with his upbringing. I'm willing to cut him a tiny bit of slack about his shock RE: Varis' death, if only because he was functionally raised to see Varis as practically a God, or at the very least a divine ruler.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 20:37
|
|
|
Jetrauben posted:I'm not convinced he's unrepentant. If anything it seems he's repentant but struggling with his upbringing. I'm willing to cut him a tiny bit of slack about his shock RE: Varis' death, if only because he was functionally raised to see Varis as practically a God, or at the very least a divine ruler. He has a few lines about how HIS EMPIRE is on the wrong track and he JUST NEEDS TO SET THINGS STRAIGHT in a few scenes prior to the one where he's heartbroken over Varis. I'm not saying it's impossible for him to truly turn his back on the Empire and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the direction the writers take him but given what we've seen of him so far, I think he'd jump at the chance to take control of the Empire and reorganize it into a country that would eventually become a global threat again. Even considering what's happening to his kids, it's possible for him to spin their deaths as the fault of ~misguided degenerates~ who wouldn't have had the chance to do what they did if he were in charge. What needs to happen is one of his kids needs to tell him "We've always loving hated you for killing our parents and we volunteered for the Weapon project just to have a chance to take revenge against you" to his face.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 20:43
|
|
|
Chillgamesh posted:He has a few lines about how HIS EMPIRE is on the wrong track and he JUST NEEDS TO SET THINGS STRAIGHT in a few scenes prior to the one where he's heartbroken over Varis. I'm not saying it's impossible for him to truly turn his back on the Empire and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the direction the writers take him but given what we've seen of him so far, I think he'd jump at the chance to take control of the Empire and reorganize it into a country that would eventually become a global threat again. That is... pretty clearly not where that is going? The angle is clearly "Gaius' children all believed in his ideals and it got every single one wiped out as the expendable pawns of an rear end in a top hat."
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 20:54
|
|
|
Chillgamesh posted:He has a few lines about how HIS EMPIRE is on the wrong track and he JUST NEEDS TO SET THINGS STRAIGHT in a few scenes prior to the one where he's heartbroken over Varis. I'm not saying it's impossible for him to truly turn his back on the Empire and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the direction the writers take him but given what we've seen of him so far, I think he'd jump at the chance to take control of the Empire and reorganize it into a country that would eventually become a global threat again. It's pretty clear that's never going to happen, and it's not really the sort of thing FF14 does. That said, yeah, I can believe he believed in the promise of his empire, because remember, the Republic of Garlemald, prior to becoming an empire, was a bullied and marginalized power driven to the rear end-end of the world. The Empire does seem to have been an improvement in the lives of many common Garleans. That's a tough nut to crack. Unlike real-world fash, the Garleans were actually a bullied and marginalized group.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:01
|
|
|
I don't really care what he believes of his empire. They left their subjugated neighbors in ruins, and have gone far past securing a safe and prosperous position for his native people. Nobody's blaming them for defending themselves, but what they've done past is inexcusable and he has no remorse for it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:04
|
|
|
Also they won't be able to tell him because we're killing them all Awkward
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:07
|
|
|
Orcs and Ostriches posted:I don't really care what he believes of his empire. They left their subjugated neighbors in ruins, and have gone far past securing a safe and prosperous position for his native people. Nobody's blaming them for defending themselves, but what they've done past is inexcusable and he has no remorse for it. I mean I'm not really excusing it at all.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:08
|
|
|
I didn't mean to imply you were, but he still does, even after all the destruction the empire wrought, Gaius still sees it as right. He has some personal grief about his children dieing. It's not because he and the system he worked for turned them into zealots for their cause; just the loss of a child. And he's angry that the Ascians were manipulating the empire. He doesn't care what the Ascians made them do, merely that it wasn't a Garlean on top, because he's more or less fine with their deeds and directions. I don't see any attempt at remorse or repentance in his character. He's still a imperialist fascist; just one that currently shares a common cause with us.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:25
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:That is... pretty clearly not where that is going? The angle is clearly "Gaius' children all believed in his ideals and it got every single one wiped out as the expendable pawns of an rear end in a top hat." I guess not, but I really meant that if he's truly going to have his faith in the Empire broken then he needs to see that his kids are dead as a direct result of the world he made and their fate was decided the moment Garlemald began its brutal campaign. Jetrauben posted:It's pretty clear that's never going to happen, and it's not really the sort of thing FF14 does. This could get really  really fast if we compare them to real life groups, so I'd like to avoid that. What I will say is that wasn't it the Meracydians who drove them to Ilsabard, and Emet-Selch who introduced them to Magitek? While the Empire may have been good to an average Garlean, that person would have died centuries prior to the game's setting. They're just supremacists at this point.Orcs and Ostriches posted:I don't really care what he believes of his empire. They left their subjugated neighbors in ruins, and have gone far past securing a safe and prosperous position for his native people. Nobody's blaming them for defending themselves, but what they've done past is inexcusable and he has no remorse for it. Yeah at best Gaius will be like Fordola; They have truly accepted defeat, so there's no sense in killing them, but there is no way for them to repent for what they have done.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:25
|
|
|
Chillgamesh posted:This could get really I don't think it was the Meracydians. I don't know their timeline perfectly, but Garleans would have originated in Othard / the Far East, in ancient Ivalice. They were driven northward by the other Othardian and Ilsabardian countries. I'm not sure there was much contact at all with Meracydia until the second age of the Allagans came about. Entire eras in the past either way. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Dec 4, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:31
|
|
|
Wasn't Ivalice post-Allag? And yeah, I'm not excusing Garlean bullshit, so much as saying that it's logical the average Garlean has been inducted into a supremacist and imperialist political mindset because the Empire was good to their people after a long time of being bullied by other powers, and that therefore it's pretty hard for them to snap out of it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:33
|
|
|
Chillgamesh posted:While the Empire may have been good to an average Garlean, that person would have died centuries prior to the game's setting. They're just supremacists at this point. That’s actually not true. The Garlean Republic only became the Garlean Empire 55 years before A Realm Reborn.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:43
|
|
|
Ivalice was probably post 4th calamity, or contemporary with early Allag. I don't think there's a definitive answer on their exact timeline. Either way, I don't think it really affects either of them all that much. It just probably wasn't the Meracydians that pushed them up north into the current Garlean homeland.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:46
|
|
|
Gaius asking if Milisandia suffered and Cid going "of course she did, her body was fused into a living bioweapon as her consciousness was overwritten, it was probably agonizing every second" was pretty brutal lol
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:50
|
|
|
is it just me because i might have missed something, or do we even truly know what Gaius's hopes for the empire actually are? does he still think they should rule the world? or does he just want it to be a functioning society again, without ascian influence? even after watching the Werlyt stuff again he doesn't give me the impression of still being a fascist. just a sad dad. plus if he does try and go back to the empire his elezen buddy will just shank him immediately
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 21:52
|
|
|
thetoughestbean posted:That’s actually not true. The Garlean Republic only became the Garlean Empire 55 years before A Realm Reborn. Yeah I'm brushing up on my Hydaelic history now thanks to your post and according to this scholarly source Garlemald has only become a massive imperial power within living memory, like you said. People like Gaius would definitely have faith in Garlemald as an idea that would be very difficult to shake.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 22:45
|
|
|
Kerrzhe posted:is it just me because i might have missed something, or do we even truly know what Gaius's hopes for the empire actually are? does he still think they should rule the world? or does he just want it to be a functioning society again, without ascian influence? No, Gaius has not really elaborated on his current political beliefs.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 22:57
|
|
|
Hey quick question - what's the policy on new patch spoilers? Are we free to post from the patch is live or should we give it a day? Just wanna know what the expectation is since I tend to blast through story stuff really fast.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 23:14
|
|
|
I think this thread was specifically created for people to talk about 5.3 stuff immediately, I would assume that anyone who walked in here on 5.4 day would be expecting all the content to be complete
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 23:16
|
|
|
Yeah. This thread should be open season, no spoiler tags.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 23:19
|
|
|
Gonna also say I think this thread should be 100% open spoilers on everything
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 23:21
|
|
|
yeah this thread is the spoiler thread, so it's all free game no tags. everybody here should be up to speed on everything (i'm only not up to speed on a bunch of job quests)
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 23:52
|
|
|
It's probably take me most of a week to finish MSQ, Eden, and Emerald weapon given raiding They really need to make savage debut a week after the patch drops
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2020 23:55
|
|
|
I binged through all 5.3 MSQ, alliance raid, tribe setup, and Sorrows of Werlyt all on the day it dropped. Even then, by the time I could look at the spoiler thread there was already like 5 pages of discussion lol
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 00:01
|
|
|
Might as well post this now since I'll probably duck out of the thread until I've finished everything I care about not getting spoiled on: What do we know about the black mask Ascians? The red masks are members of the Convocation right? With only Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emit Selch being unsundered. Are the black masks just random sundered Amaurotines? They seem easier to kill compared to the reds which need a white auracite or something similar. The black masks seem to have kinda' disappeared after ARR, ever since HW we only seem to deal with the reds. I was a little intrigued when they mentioned that black masks were being sighted stirring up poo poo in The First during 5.3, but then the Scions killed them off-screen while we were dealing with more important stuff.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 00:17
|
|
|
The thing to remember about Gaius' story and retribution in the upcoming patches is very simple: He's been slapped in the middle of a Gundam story. Gundam hates fascists, but is sympathetic towards non-believers forced into their ranks, even when they attain a high rank (see Char Aznable). Gaius' dead-ness is inversely proportional to how repentant he is by the end.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 01:52
|
|
|
Whoever has the power to do so should probably go ahead and rename the thread now, like how the main thread was.cheetah7071 posted:They really need to make savage debut a week after the patch drops They've said that they're probably going to do that in future raid patches, but that they could arrange it to happen that way this time. CharlieFoxtrot posted:I binged through all 5.3 MSQ, alliance raid, tribe setup, and Sorrows of Werlyt all on the day it dropped. Yeah, I basically gave up on the main thread for 5.3. Even in just the time it took me to get through the content and feel I was ready to start checking it, this thread existed with about a dozen pages and the main thread was still getting multiple pages of new posts a day. I could only keep up with one or two pages a day, eventually got 100 pages behind on the main thread, said "screw it", and jumped to the last post.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 01:53
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:The thing to remember about Gaius' story and retribution in the upcoming patches is very simple: Gaius is arguably in the inverse position, really - he's a genuine true believer in Nietzchean will-to-power and wants to actually help people. He's almost like a negafascist; he had no personal animus and seemingly refused to engage in genocide or the persecution of specific marginalized groups and wanted them all to flock to his banner...of authoritarian strongman pseudo-enlightened despot politics.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 04:33
|
|
|
Jetrauben posted:Gaius is arguably in the inverse position, really - he's a genuine true believer in Nietzchean will-to-power and wants to actually help people. He's almost like a negafascist; he had no personal animus and seemingly refused to engage in genocide or the persecution of specific marginalized groups and wanted them all to flock to his banner...of authoritarian strongman pseudo-enlightened despot politics. Yeah, he might be in a Char position--Char's not a fascist, but routinely an antagonist because he was either forced to be, or because he held valid-ish (A.K.A. 'not fascist') views against the protagonists. Gaius genuinely believes in the rhetoric that the empire puts up as a thin justification. Of course, comparing Gaius to a Gundam character one-to-one has a problem; Gundam is routinely very proudly anti-fascist and anti-warmonger, and will always hold to that, but FFXIV has in the past shown inclinations to side with charismatic fascists (I was going to say 'as long as they aren't trying to kill you at that moment', but... no, the story has sided with the fascist even more-or-less directly after they murdered someone on our side). Cleretic fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Dec 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 04:44
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:no, the story has sided with the fascist even more-or-less directly after they murdered someone on our side). Is this something else you've made up or misread?
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 05:03
|
|
|
Orcs and Ostriches posted:Is this something else you've made up or misread? Regulus and Ysayle. It's hard to determine exactly how much time is 'supposed' to have passed between him killing her and the Warring Triad storyline where he's on our side, but in terms of his screentime, he gets basically no space between those points to either continue being an antagonist or to endear us to him otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 05:10
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:Regulus and Ysayle. It's hard to determine exactly how much time is 'supposed' to have passed between him killing her and the Warring Triad storyline where he's on our side, but in terms of his screentime, he gets basically no space between those points to either continue being an antagonist or to endear us to him otherwise. To be fair, I'm not convinced that we necessarily like Regula. We just cooperate with him temporarily and give him the bare minimum of respect after his death.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 05:12
|
|
|
Also how the hell is Ysayle a fascist? Her entire thing was that she wanted to end the war. You can't keep calling anybody who's slightly antagonistic a fascist
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 05:27
|
|
|
I thought you were talking about Emet-Selch, but Ysayle is barely even objectionable by herself, let alone comparable to Thordan or Varis lol
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 05:38
|
|
|
If anything, Ysayle is an antifa supersoldier
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 05:39
|
|
|
I think she was clarifying that "the fascist that killed someone on our side" meant Regula killing Ysayle with his airship.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 05:41
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:Regulus and Ysayle. It's hard to determine exactly how much time is 'supposed' to have passed between him killing her and the Warring Triad storyline where he's on our side, but in terms of his screentime, he gets basically no space between those points to either continue being an antagonist or to endear us to him otherwise. The story never sided with Regulus. He saw his folly at the end and died. He was still as much an antagonist as Gaius.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 05:42
|
|
|
regula is literally the thing every gundam after the main set of UC does with its char, where there's an episode where the main gundam boy works with the char bad guy and there's the respect moment and rrrrgh ideals, but then they're back to killing each other next episode, except he dies before that next episode because the one char character is also every legatus who isn't xenos or nael in a ff14 context
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 05:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 23:28 |
|
|
Gruckles posted:I think she was clarifying that "the fascist that killed someone on our side" meant Regula killing Ysayle with his airship. Ahh that makes sense. I don't remember the bits with Regula well enough to say for sure, but my recollection is less that the game "sided" with him and more there was a grudging respect, like a Ramba Ral type character.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2020 05:44
|
|