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How Wonderful! posted:I'm not especially convinced by a trans reading of these comics until the actual printed issues have actual trans characters in them. Writers can go ahead and do it, and you know, obviously Claremont was hamstrung a bit by what he could get away with at the time but he made the minority allegory angle of the mutant concept a lot less facile by just pitting actual minorities on the team, working in what was under the circumstances an admirable amount of queer elements, etc.. Trans people aren't non-Euclidean beings that the naked eye slides off of, if anybody wants to write a story about trans people they can just make trans characters. I remember a revelation when I was reading some of Grant Morrison's pitch in the front of the TPB for "E for Extinction," his first storyline on New X-Men in 2001. He said that while many writers and filmmakers have leaned into the "X-Men as racial/LGBTQ+ metaphor to show "how unexpectedly deep the franchise is" when you look at X-Men on a proper macro level they are really a metaphor for Youth Culture. And that bears out, including why racial/LGBTQ+ coding maps well onto them. Those are the kinds of subcultures that have seen a lot more acceptance and promotion under Youth Culture from the 1960s onward. But really the metaphor, while it features allegories for the racial minority and LGBTQ+ and neurodiverse experience, those are all inside the metaphor for Youth Culture. It tracks really well. The X-Men started as white teens who were freaking out Conservative 60s/70s whitebread culture-- their energy, breaks from orthodoxy, unconventional fashion, and raw power are all terrifying. It's also why the whole "your differences make you special, now come to an awesome college of hot people to learn how to leverage them" power fantasy works so goddamn well. Then Stan/Jack realized they had a solid enough MLK/Malcolm X metaphor in Xavier/Magneto and started leaning into it, and Claremont ran with it, and everyone including Bryan Singer made it a priority... but it's really just one facet of the larger whole. Which is why concepts like Krakoa seem squick-y when you view it solely in the context of actual racial minorities/LGBTQ+. It's why the movies and cartoons and comics that really "go for it" with the racial metaphor never quite work. It's exactly why those panels of Kitty Pryde saying the n-word fall flat. Keeping the metaphor solely on race/minority status just doesn't work when put alongside actual real-life minorities who don't have a college full of hot people or telepathy or laser eyes to fall back on. They're people who actually do get lots of poo poo, denied opportunities, or beaten up, or rounded up into literal camps, or killed, and hearing "I'm just like you" coming out of model-pretty (mostly white) mutants is tone deaf as gently caress this is also why going to the well of "but the Holocaust" for Magneto is missing the point, and if the MCU had serious balls they'd update him to a black dude who survived the Rwandan or South African genocides And it's why Krakoa doesn't sit right to some people. They still take the whole "X-Men is a metaphor for race/LGBTQ+" marketing at face value. But even 20 years ago top writers were recognizing how foolish that is, and taking advantage of the real concept behind it, and the whole thing works a lot better when you broaden the lens a bit. The race/LGBTQ+ stuff is still there if you do, which is a distinction a lot of people who fight me on this don't seem to realize. It's just not the focal point and lacks, well frankly, pretension. quote:On the other hand, Krakoa isn't a real place and even in the context of Marvel it's a pretty fantastical setting. People leave Fire Island because they run out of money and need to go back to work, young queer kids move out of warehouse collectives because the warehouses usually suck, in the 20th century thriving gay bars vanished overnight after being smashed up in police raids, etc.. Krakoa isn't really like that. It's a fortress and it's also Eden. It gives everybody there everything they could want-- there's no death. There's no want. As we saw in this week's X-Factor, there's no money. If you're living there and not looking around at the outside world and not... I guess being slaughtered by Apocalypse in a ghoulish masochistic ritual... it's a paradise. There's a huge difference between "come live in my gay art collective, it's nine people and we only have two bedrooms but you can sleep in the hallway closet, oh also the building has racoons in the walls" and "come live on this tropical post-scarcity island with teleportation plants all over the place so you can visit Sweden and Chile and the moon whenever you want." I would want to live there and it would have not particularly much to do with identity or community and more to do with the fact that everything about living there seems outrageously luxurious.
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Dec 5, 2020 18:57
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Adder Moray posted:Subtext that exists in your head and not the actual books. No, I think they've been pretty clear about being "the new gods" of this world who are not subject to human law. Magneto's speech while eating steak lays it out pretty clearly, wherever that was.
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Dec 5, 2020 19:03
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mind the walrus posted:if the MCU had serious balls they'd update him to a black dude who survived the Rwandan or South African genocides This is a fascinating idea, especially if you tied it into Wakanda's self-isolation... But besides the obvious backlash from racist nerds, you'd also have to navigate the argument that the Holocaust was uniquely horrific and it is in poor taste to compare anything to it. I don't buy that argument, mind you, but many people do. When the lovely Rahne thing happened, it really hit me- a straight white cis guy- that mutants-as-metaphor doesn't work because you can just have whatever type of person you want in the book. Rahne doesn't need to be a trans metaphor; you could just have a trans character. That said, I think what Claremont started by adding more representation and doing some not-so-subtle identity things was inviting non-straight white cis guys to identify with the characters. And I think in the years since, that's clearly the importance of the characters: not as metaphors for POC or LGBTQ+ or Jewish people but as characters who can be related to by a very large cross-section of people. And I also don't think it's inherently bad to lean into the metaphor stuff. I just think it's often too heavy handed or written from a straight cis white dude perspective which makes it hard to pull off well.
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Dec 5, 2020 19:34
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I wonder what will come from the one (likely two) vacant seats on the quite council.
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Dec 5, 2020 19:35
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Rand Brittain posted:No, I think they've been pretty clear about being "the new gods" of this world who are not subject to human law. Magneto's speech while eating steak lays it out pretty clearly, wherever that was. well we also know that they know that they can't be the new gods, Moira's 6th life cleary shows it also kinda pointless because they hold their omegas so close to krakoa (or have them doing peon poo poo) they might not even exist
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Dec 5, 2020 19:39
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So now that Gwenpool retconned herself into being a mutant, what's her mutant power?
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Dec 5, 2020 20:06
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IUG posted:Not that it solves Hickman's problem with not addressing some of the issues he created, but some of this was addressed in Zdarsky's X-Men/Fantastic Four series. It's all about should Franklin leave the F4 to live on Krakoa. But I guess what was all done in some one shot that I don't think many people read? I mean it is also entirely nonsense now because Franklin was never a mutant.
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Dec 5, 2020 20:15
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Gologle posted:So now that Gwenpool retconned herself into being a mutant, what's her mutant power? Self-focused reality warping.
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Dec 5, 2020 21:04
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I feel like the Zdarsky mini, the recent Slott issue, and this week's Champions are all sending mixed signals about what exactly the Krakoan policy on non-mutants and the families of mutants, amnesty, etc..
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Dec 5, 2020 21:07
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Gologle posted:So now that Gwenpool retconned herself into being a mutant, what's her mutant power? I think it's still the same as it's always been. How Wonderful! posted:I feel like the Zdarsky mini, the recent Slott issue, and this week's Champions are all sending mixed signals about what exactly the Krakoan policy on non-mutants and the families of mutants, amnesty, etc.. Honestly I'd just throw the Slott stuff in the trash since that's the only thing that's really going against what we've seen established in the X-books. Champions makes sense because Scott was part of the Champions and also was a hero as a teen. He'd totally take it upon himself to show up and help using Krakoa as a cover even if the council didn't approve it.
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Dec 5, 2020 21:14
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How Wonderful! posted:I feel like the Zdarsky mini, the recent Slott issue, and this week's Champions are all sending mixed signals about what exactly the Krakoan policy on non-mutants and the families of mutants, amnesty, etc.. I mean, none of those were written by people working in the main X-group. The Zdarsky mini probably had the most connection editorial wise.
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Dec 5, 2020 21:15
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The Franklin Richards thing still feels like some weird editorial or corporate beef. It's so out of nowhere and so suddenly dropped and then moved on from that it just feels like someone high up had a serious bone to pick with Franklin being a mutant.
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Dec 5, 2020 21:20
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Skwirl posted:I mean, none of those were written by people working in the main X-group. The Zdarsky mini probably had the most connection editorial wise.
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Dec 5, 2020 21:21
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When was Franklin first revealed to be a mutant?
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Dec 5, 2020 21:24
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Skwirl posted:When was Franklin first revealed to be a mutant? Days of Future Past, I believe. So like 1980. I could be wrong and he had powers from pretty much the moment they introduced him. Just not sure if they said he was a mutant that early or not. Either way, most of his existence he's been classified as a mutant. Codependent Poster fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Dec 5, 2020 |
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Dec 5, 2020 21:27
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Codependent Poster posted:I think it's still the same as it's always been. In the Dawn of X style info page Gwen writes for herself in the last issue of GSB she says she might have a mutant ability but that's up to the next writer to decide.
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Dec 5, 2020 21:40
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ImpAtom posted:I mean it is also entirely nonsense now because Franklin was never a mutant. Good thing we all agreed that whatever Slott currently writes or ever wrote is non-canon.
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Dec 5, 2020 21:44
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Codependent Poster posted:Days of Future Past, I believe. So like 1980. I heard on a podcast that it was in some Fantastic Four book in the seventies.
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Dec 5, 2020 22:07
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Franklin was suggested to have strange and potentially very powerful abilities very early on, around #105-116, although it sort of seems like Stan Lee had in mind that he was mystical or magical in some way. Gerry Conway really leans into this in the early 70s, and makes Franklin really sort of seem ominous. He has a two-parter in 1973 (#140-141) about Franklin being packed with cosmic energy which Annihilus tries to steal, which ends with Reed putting him into a coma.  Well, he gets better, but the status quo for quite awhile afterwards is that he does have the potential to grow into great power, but power specifically tied to his parents' exposure to radiation and the circumstances of his birth and the involvement of the Negative Zone. It is in fact "Days of Future Past" (1981) that comes right out and says he's a mutant (more or less-), and shortly thereafter Byrne confirms it in the present-day continuity in FF #238 (1982).  Now I guess depending on where and when in Marvel continuity you are the line between "mutant powers" and "hereditary powers from parental exposure to radiation and beams and whatever" may or may not be pretty thin. I believe Beast's origin involves his dad being exposed to radiation, as does Professor X's for that matter, and both of them are obviously treated as mutants. Which I guess raises the question of what on earth Slott was on about, but what else is new? How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Dec 5, 2020 |
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Dec 5, 2020 22:23
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Open Marriage Night posted:I heard on a podcast that it was in some Fantastic Four book in the seventies. There was apparently a never-published essay in Mark Gruenwald's Omniverse zine (at least based on this unused cover) that based on the prominent positioning of Franklin Richards and Nekra that was going to explore the issue that by 1982 it was established that most mutant powers manifest at the onset of adulthood/puberty, whereas Franklin Richards (and Nekra, and Mandrill, and arguably the Beast and not really anyone else) were identified as mutants as babies. Skwirl posted:Amazing Fantasy 15 (the one with Spider-Man) also has a guy who gets powers from being exposed to radiation that later reprints hyped as the first mutant story published by Marvel. I don't know if any later writers ever brought that dude back. He was psychic and could fly IIRC. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Dec 5, 2020 |
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Dec 5, 2020 22:27
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Amazing Fantasy 15 (the one with Spider-Man) also has a guy who gets powers from being exposed to radiation that later reprints hyped as the first mutant story published by Marvel. I don't know if any later writers ever brought that dude back. He was psychic and could fly IIRC.
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Dec 5, 2020 22:29
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Tad Carter actually first shows up in Amazing Adult Fantasy #14 and I regret to inform you that he becomes a recurring character in Byrne's X-Men: The Hidden Years.
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Dec 5, 2020 22:31
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How Wonderful! posted:Tad Carter actually first shows up in Amazing Adult Fantasy #14 and I regret to inform you that he becomes a recurring character in Byrne's X-Men: The Hidden Years. Oh, maybe the reprint i had of Spider-man's origin just threw that in. Is Hidden Years that thing Byrne did on his website that was how the X-Men would have gone if Claremont hadn't kicked him to the curb?
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Dec 5, 2020 22:35
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Skwirl posted:Oh, maybe the reprint i had of Spider-man's origin just threw that in. X-Men: Elsewhen is basically his fan comic he's been doing on his website.
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Dec 5, 2020 22:39
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How Wonderful! posted:
It's specifically the x-gene that makes you a big-M Mutant, right?
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Dec 5, 2020 22:53
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Edge & Christian posted:Hidden Years was a real rear end comic book Byrne wrote and drew for Marvel in 1999-2001 that was pitched as 'filling in' the period that the X-Men were in reprints prior to Giant Size X-Men #1. emphasis on the "rear end"
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Dec 5, 2020 22:56
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How Wonderful! posted:I feel like the Zdarsky mini, the recent Slott issue, and this week's Champions are all sending mixed signals about what exactly the Krakoan policy on non-mutants and the families of mutants, amnesty, etc..  and B) I strongly suspect it's gonna turn out to be him lying through his teeth to help the kids in the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if, immediately in the next issue, he ends up going "Oh I was completely bluffing, we gotta book it now!" after the agents disperse.But beyond that yes, the whole confusion is really annoying, and also something that's so fundamentally easy to fix! Like, we had an issue explicitly dedicated to people like Melody Guthrie. She's living with all her mutant siblings. But she has a human mother and other human siblings. Is the household...split, now? Did the human ones not want to come, or were they not allowed? Again, the more that really easy questions like this are avoided, the less it seems like these are setups for later payoffs and more like we're stubbornly skirting these issues because it would mess up the fragile deck of cards that this house is built on. How a nation and the members of that nation treat its least powerful residents -- in this case, it would be the family of mutants who were displaced there -- is going to say the most about this nation, and it just doesn't seem like a conversation Hickman -- or any other writer, apparently -- is willing to have. This isn't some projection about which real world demographic best fits this fictional demographic. This is a really basic worldbuilding element. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Dec 6, 2020 |
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Dec 6, 2020 01:20
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Just FYI for Grant Morrison discussion, they've recently come out as non-binary and use they/them pronouns.
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Dec 6, 2020 01:34
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rantmo posted:Just FYI for Grant Morrison discussion, they've recently come out as non-binary and use they/them pronouns. Huh, I was not aware of that, thanks.
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Dec 6, 2020 01:37
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BrianWilly posted:But beyond that yes, the whole confusion is really annoying, and also something that's so fundamentally easy to fix! Like, we had an issue explicitly dedicated to people like Melody Guthrie. She's living with all her mutant siblings. But she has a human mother and other human siblings. Is the household...split, now? Did the human ones not want to come, or were they not allowed? As for the X-men as Allegory, I think they are bad allegories but can have power as analogies - I think there is a better term here, but it's like how Lord of the Rings isn't "about" World War 2 but does have a lot to say about the dehumanizing nature of industrial warfare and the temptations of power.
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Dec 6, 2020 02:02
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Skwirl posted:Huh, I was not aware of that, thanks. It only happened like two weeks ago and hasn't gotten a lot of mainstream attention. I only found out because of the CerebroCast twitter account.
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Dec 6, 2020 02:14
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BrianWilly posted:
This is why the Israel comparison doesn't quite work for me, yet. Picking Jerusalem for Magneto's speech in HOX 1 was blatant, but they haven't fully explored what the Mutant equivalent to Zionism really means. But the simple in-story answer about non-Mutant friends and family is... Gates. When residents can regularly visit and do so practically instantaneously, the idea of being on Mutant Island doesn't mean isolation.
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Dec 6, 2020 02:47
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non-mutants can use gates if a mutant escorts them. that's presumably how northstar's husband comes and goes since he has a day job outside of krakoa. i'm surprised that infiltration of krakoa has only been either direct physical invasions or esoteric gate fuckery, but never this giant glaring weakness in their security. grab a mutant, any mutant, coerce/drug/mind control them into taking people or devices over. it's almost suspiciously obvious. but nah, it makes far more sense to send a tiny man hidden inside pyro.
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Dec 6, 2020 02:54
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:non-mutants can use gates if a mutant escorts them. that's presumably how northstar's husband comes and goes since he has a day job outside of krakoa. i'm surprised that infiltration of krakoa has only been either direct physical invasions or esoteric gate fuckery, but never this giant glaring weakness in their security. grab a mutant, any mutant, coerce/drug/mind control them into taking people or devices over. it's almost suspiciously obvious. but nah, it makes far more sense to send a tiny man hidden inside pyro. I think Krakoa still has to explicitly grant permission for non mutants to use the gates, even if they're with a mutant. Magneto mentions it in the first issue of House of X I believe.
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Dec 6, 2020 02:56
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Re: Xavier in Slott's FF I really think that wasn't him. Just two issues prior he wrote a very different sounding Xavier and made a stronger connection between the FF and the X-Men. I dunno, I just don't buy it. Someone's manipulating Franklin.
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Dec 6, 2020 03:04
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Cartridgeblowers posted:Re: Xavier in Slott's FF I could see that, I can't believe Hickman doesn't have some sort of plan for X-Men that involves Franklin that he already got approved by editorial when he was planning all this.
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Dec 6, 2020 03:07
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Franklin was literally listed as one of the Omega level mutants not aligned with Krakoa in the Dawn of X series info pages that they wanted to get a hold of, same with Legion. He's definitely still going to have some role later down the line.
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Dec 6, 2020 03:35
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So bingings the last few months of X-men in the order of the books release but not in the reading order was really weird. Like Magik saying "i have to fight him again" and then the first fight being in an issue I read later was just confusing. I do hope XoS ends with everyone just getting sick of Saturnyen's poo poo.
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Dec 6, 2020 05:40
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This could already be well-known by now, but I just read this amazing letter in X-Men 101 that proves nerds never change: I guess at least one person was really happy with X-Factor ten years later, although maybe not because he seems to hate Beast too.
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Dec 6, 2020 05:49
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twistedmentat posted:So bingings the last few months of X-men in the order of the books release but not in the reading order was really weird. Like Magik saying "i have to fight him again" and then the first fight being in an issue I read later was just confusing. The X of Swords books all have their reading order on the cover.
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Dec 6, 2020 05:50
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