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Lord Krangdar posted:Its like "of course I get that Always Sunny is depicting bad people as bad, but what about the people who don't get that?". Well, they're wrong. No relativism from me, if people like that exist they are just objectively wrong. well, if you ever find yourself as the head of programming for a streaming television platform, i urge you to have someone second-guess your decisions
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Dec 7, 2020 21:33
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luxury handset posted:well, if you ever find yourself as the head of programming for a streaming television platform, i urge you to have someone second-guess your decisions Oh I see, so the cure to my supposed moral relativism is to assume that the craven actions of faceless corporate drones shallowly jumping on a serious issue turned social media trend is the inarguable standard of morality.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:36
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I regret bringing up The Gang Turns Black
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Dec 7, 2020 21:39
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RBA Starblade posted:I regret bringing up The Gang Turns Black Its not a bad thing to talk about these topics. Its good. Which is exactly why those episodes should have been kept up. Pretending a problem (racism) doesn't exist is a solution for a corporation like Hulu, but it doesn't help anyone or solve anything really.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:42
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fyi hulu removed art that depicts blackface as bad, because they think blackface is good
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Dec 7, 2020 21:43
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Hulu is a corporation. They don't think either way, they don't care.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:45
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a for-profit corporation choosing to remove depictions of blackface without being heckled into doing so is actually a pretty good sign of social progress. it indicates that more people identify these things as problematic and can recognize the hot stove before they slap a hand on it its also worth pointing out that with a lightly serialized show like always sunny its easier to just pull episodes until some later time. the episode of mad men with blackface has to have a disclaimer put on it because you really can't just pull a episode or two of that
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Dec 7, 2020 21:47
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anyone suggesting that Hulu should take any time to really understand the usage/implication of blackface in media on their platform is acting in bad faith. it almost certainly went like this: some mid-tier manager: "shows are getting called out for depictions of black face" his boss: "do we have blackface in our tv shows?" some mid-tier manager: "yeah its always sunny, i think they use it in a nuanced wa..." his boss: "pull the episodes before we get any poo poo about it and move on to the next set of objectives we have laid out for this quarter"
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Dec 7, 2020 21:47
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I’m gonna say the n word 🎶
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Dec 7, 2020 21:52
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On Netflix, people interpreted depiction as endorsement for a certain show earlier this year without ever actually watching it, which did lead to a material drop in subscriptions. There is a clear correct decision from a dollars and cents perspective, but that has nothing to do with lofty ideas like free speech and art.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:53
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luxury handset posted:a for-profit corporation choosing to remove depictions of blackface without being heckled into doing so is actually a pretty good sign of social progress. it indicates that more people identify these things as problematic and can recognize the hot stove before they slap a hand on it No, its the exact opposite. They may have taken themselves out of the crosshairs of the offended "tweetstorm" (which still remains hypothetical). Always Sunny acknowledges the pervasiveness of racism in society. Removing that acknowledgement is not anti-racist or progressive, at all. You don't make progress on a problem by ignoring it or sweeping it under the rug. On the other hand art, even low-brow comedy, is a good place to actually bring up these sorts of issues. Its like how around the same time people and corporations suddenly stopped discussing black lives, George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and so on for a day and just blacked out their social media. That didn't help anything, did it? ShoogaSlim posted:anyone suggesting that Hulu should take any time to really understand the usage/implication of blackface in media on their platform is acting in bad faith. Has anyone suggested that? oh jay posted:On Netflix, people interpreted depiction as endorsement for a certain show earlier this year without ever actually watching it, which did lead to a material drop in subscriptions. Which?
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Dec 7, 2020 21:55
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luxury handset posted:a for-profit corporation choosing to remove depictions of blackface without being heckled into doing so is actually a pretty good sign of social progress. large corporations like hulu are directly responsible for the subjugation of oppressed peoples. they are not our allies. look at how streaming is destroying the landscape for television and film. it is harder than ever to make it in the industry. guess which group in the industry this is most dire for, hint, it isn't white people
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Dec 7, 2020 22:02
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in trying times like these its best to look to moral leaders for guidance such as comcast executives
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Dec 7, 2020 22:06
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progress would be if we tore down our legacy media companies and redistributed their capital to create a public art fund, which would benefit marginalized voices much more than any 'diversity initiative' Hulu could take. anyways, i wonder if floating around in the ocean for hours gave the rum ham a nice brine
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Dec 7, 2020 22:07
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Lord Krangdar posted:Removing that acknowledgement is not anti-racist or progressive, at all. You don't make progress on a problem by ignoring it or sweeping it under the rug. making offensive jokes is not the only way to make fun of racism. refusing to show a blackface is not ignoring racism. i don't think there is a valid position here where one can say "actually, by being racist, they are dismantling racism" again, i don't think the show is racist. the show uses offensive images deliberately for the shock value. and one of the very important things for any sort of shock comedy to understand is when you should, and should not, show offensive imagery regardless of the meaning behind your use of the offensive image DOPE FIEND KILLA G posted:anyways, i wonder if floating around in the ocean for hours gave the rum ham a nice brine a friend of mine made rum ham last year for thanksgiving, as a joke don't make rum ham Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Dec 7, 2020 |
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Dec 7, 2020 22:08
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Lord Krangdar posted:Has anyone suggested that? Lord Krangdar posted:They should have just quietly kept the episodes of the show, which they had already presumably paid for, on their platform. Without acknowledging, amplifying, or arguing against these hypothetical accusations of racism (which, as far as I know, never really existed). this, to me, reads like "they shouldn't have taken down these episodes bc the blackface references are actually nuanced and are not the target of criticism" meanwhile, what (i think) luxury handset is suggesting is that it doesn't make sense to leave episodes like this up and "play chicken" with a possible outcry of criticism instead of hand-waving the "problem" away until later to cover their asses. "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" and such. what does hulu care about? subscriber counts and advertising revenue. it is likely that not many people (if any) dropped their hulu subscription over a few IASIP episodes. it is more likely that users might churn or advertisers might pull support IF a social media backlashed occurred
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Dec 7, 2020 22:13
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A corporation having a knee jerk reaction and preemptively, uncritically removing anything that could be dredged up as problematic isn't a sign of progress, it's a sign of not giving a poo poo and going through the motions expected from them without caring about the spirit or doing anything but the barest minimum to stay out of trouble.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:14
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steinrokkan posted:A corporation having a knee jerk reaction and preemptively, uncritically removing anything that could be dredged up as problematic isn't a sign of progress, it's a sign of not giving a poo poo and going through the motions expected from them without caring about the spirit or doing anythingbut the barest minimum to stay out of trouble. are we really trying to herald a corporation as beacons of moral virtue? hulu gives a poo poo about money, that's all. people tweet about how much they hate jeff bezos from the WFH setup they got delivered via amazon prime. nobody really cares about moral virtue from their toy and pleasure manufacturers.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:18
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ShoogaSlim posted:are we really trying to herald a corporation as beacons of moral virtue? hulu gives a poo poo about money, that's all. I'm not heralding a corporation as a beacon of virtue, the opposite. I'm responding to the poster who was saying this was a sign of progress rather than of blatant alibism.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:20
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ShoogaSlim posted:this, to me, reads like "they shouldn't have taken down these episodes bc the blackface references are actually nuanced and are not the target of criticism" I didn't suggest that Hulu should understand any nuance of art, satire, comedy, etc. Hulu is a corporation, so that would be unrealistic. I just said they should have left up the episodes without any comment whatsoever. We have no reason to believe there would have been any noticeable social media backlash, whatsoever. If we assume that as a corporation they must always cover their asses from controversy in the most craven way possible then the inevitable conclusion is they must remove the entire series, yesterday. luxury handset posted:i don't think there is a valid position here where one can say "actually, by being racist, they are dismantling racism" Good thing I didn't say that (and I already clarified this exact same thing earlier). By creating a show that a) acknowledges the pervasiveness of racism in society and b) depicts it as bad, in an entertaining way, the show is doing more to promote anti-racism than deleting those specific episodes has done. Not streaming those episodes just means having less acknowledgement of racism in the world, and less depiction of racism as bad. Is that a positive change? If you're going to argue against me, argue against that please. Not against things I'm not saying.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:23
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steinrokkan posted:A corporation having a knee jerk reaction and preemptively, uncritically removing anything that could be dredged up as problematic isn't a sign of progress, it's a sign of not giving a poo poo and going through the motions expected from them without caring about the spirit or doing anything but the barest minimum to stay out of trouble. recognizing what could get you into trouble is better than just blundering into the trouble and then having to apologize or double down. a greater awareness of "blackface is bad, actually" is a good thing even if the platform might reintroduce the blackface episodes in a less tense atmosphere yes, this is an act from a callous for-profit company, but that the callous for-profit company can preemptively decide to avoid the controversy indicates a greater awareness that this kind of content is indeed controversial steinrokkan posted:I'm not heralding a corporation as a beacon of virtue, the opposite. I'm responding to the poster who was saying this was a sign of progress rather than of blatant alibism. i'm not saying they are a beacon of virtue either. i'm saying that the fact that we can skip the whole step of "hulu in hot water over blackface TV show" is a good thing. compare this to something like the dogged netherlands folk tradition of festive holiday blackface, and the many people who are still "what's the big deal?" about zwarte piet. or the high profile blackface incident on gaki no tsukai in 2018, which it should be noted prompted an apology and a change in show policy such that there would be no more impressions done of people of african complexion by japanese actors in makeup Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Dec 7, 2020 |
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Dec 7, 2020 22:23
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if you ever find yourself responding to a discussion by explaining the capitalist motives of comcast execs as if you were contributing to the discussion, just click the little 'x' on the browser instead
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Dec 7, 2020 22:23
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You can watch Apocalypse Now on Hulu, which features Ride of the Valkyries. Richard Wagner was an anti-Semite. Should they take this down, too?
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Dec 7, 2020 22:26
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Super Deuce posted:You can watch Apocalypse Now on Hulu, which features Ride of the Valkyries. Richard Wagner was an anti-Semite. Should they take this down, too? 
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Dec 7, 2020 22:27
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luxury handset posted:yes, this is an act from a callous for-profit company, but that the callous for-profit company can preemptively decide to avoid the controversy indicates a greater awareness that this kind of content is indeed controversial So, this decision helps them avoid potential controversy. How does that help black lives?
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Dec 7, 2020 22:31
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Lord Krangdar posted:So, this decision helps them avoid potential controversy. How does that help black lives? well, it removes potential causes of stress provoked by unchecked depictions of racist caricatures in media, as part of a larger cultural sensitivity and awareness in that some images may be far more offensive to different groups of people and thus unnecessarily provocative. unless you're talking about Black Lives Matter and police violence, which if so, is an error in your argument far more profound than i am equipped to address
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Dec 7, 2020 22:33
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Are the episodes where they wear Nazi uniforms still up? Is showing people dressed as Nazis for comedic effect okay?
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Dec 7, 2020 22:41
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luxury handset posted:well, it removes potential causes of stress provoked by unchecked depictions of racist caricatures in media, as part of a larger cultural sensitivity and awareness in that some images may be far more offensive to different groups of people and thus unnecessarily provocative. unless you're talking about Black Lives Matter and police violence, which if so, is an error in your argument far more profound than i am equipped to address If this formulation of cultural sensitivity and awareness means its seen as too big of a risk to host a show that a) acknowledges the pervasiveness of racism in society and b) depicts it as bad, in an entertaining way, then its not actually helping progress against racism. It may be that there are some people who can't help but find Always Sunny's humor or depictions to be too provocative or offensive. Those people shouldn't watch Always Sunny, then.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:42
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virgin hulu pulling everything and chad amazon releasing borat 2 where borat depicts every jewish caricature at once
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Dec 7, 2020 23:09
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moist turtleneck posted:virgin hulu pulling everything and chad amazon releasing borat 2 where borat depicts every jewish caricature at once I guess Cohen gets away with it because he's Jewish.
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Dec 7, 2020 23:13
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So have they started writing the next season
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Dec 7, 2020 23:18
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luxury handset posted:recognizing what could get you into trouble is better than just blundering into the trouble and then having to apologize or double down. a greater awareness of "blackface is bad, actually" is a good thing even if the platform might reintroduce the blackface episodes in a less tense atmosphere Doing something without understanding it or agreeing with it, in short doing so insincerely, isn't positive per se, since it contributes nothing to the discourse, and without that only breeds bewilderment and resentment. In this case Hulu is clearly acing in bad faith, and in doing so is sapping credibility away from those who would try to address the same issues in good faith and giving ammunition to those who would oppose critical reevaluation of any work. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Dec 7, 2020 |
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Dec 7, 2020 23:32
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moist turtleneck posted:virgin hulu pulling everything and chad amazon releasing borat 2 where borat depicts every jewish caricature at once I bet he has that jew lawyer working for him
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Dec 7, 2020 23:35
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Also the idea that people should be shielded by decree from stress caused by consumption of art is deplorable.
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Dec 7, 2020 23:40
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steinrokkan posted:Doing something without understanding it or agreeing with it, in short doing so insincerely, isn't positive per se, since it contributes nothing to the discourse, and without that only breeds bewilderment and resentment. what makes you think they don't understand the potential controversy around hosting episodes of a tv show depicting racial caricatures, or agree that these things may be insensitive to portray? i agree that if it were purely cynical the benefit is muted, but that requires an assumption on our part which is entirely rhetorical. i would think that there is a greater awareness among media executives in the united states that blackface is controversial steinrokkan posted:Also the idea that people should be shielded by decree from stress caused by consumption of art is deplorable. nah, every media company does this all the time - choosing what to host and not. standards and practices has been a thing for a long time
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Dec 7, 2020 23:40
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Yah, people can process things on their own and don't need some self-appointed jack-off talking absolute dog poo poo to decide what is too problematic for them to see.
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Dec 7, 2020 23:43
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steinrokkan posted:Yah, people can process things on their own and don't need some self-appointed jack-off talking absolute dog poo poo to decide what is too problematic for them to see. i think you may have a dissonant perspective on how media companies decide to produce or broadcast content. peace be with you
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Dec 7, 2020 23:44
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luxury handset posted:i think you may have a dissonant perspective on how media companies decide to produce or broadcast content. peace be with you I'm not talking about media companies, in case you need to have it spelled out.
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Dec 7, 2020 23:45
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well, i am talking about media companies, and have been this entire time, so it seems we are having different conversations
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Dec 7, 2020 23:50
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steinrokkan posted:Yah, people can process things on their own and don't need some self-appointed jack-off talking absolute dog poo poo to decide what is too problematic for them to see. Yes, no one needs you telling them what they can or can't see and/or broadcast.
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Dec 7, 2020 23:51
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