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A lot of supports require energy regen to really enable. Xiangling has an 80 energy ult and pretty bad energy gain but Pyro is OP so enabling her is easy. Idk why you'd be concerned about Zhong Li's ult generation if Ninguang is your carry because it comes for free and he only needs 40 energy. (to say nothing of Noelle, Barbara, and Qiqi, all of whom cannot generate energy)
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Dec 7, 2020 20:06
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The one time i did co-op was during the meteorite event where I got matched up with three Keqings. My Razor felt weirdly out of place.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:08
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Mang Tomas posted:Also how is Xinyan? I tried getting her but only got a bunch of chongs and Razors instead. Now I’m too close to 5* pity to get more. She's fun, but I also have her at C6. More so than most 4*s, I think she unlocks a lot of really key abilities going up to C4. C1 - She gets a somewhat permanent attack speed buff, giving her carry potential C2 - Her burst becomes a beast, able to easily achieve 100% crit chance. It also automatically generates a level 3 shield, giving that way more uptime C4 - She further helps physical-based DPS (i.e. herself and Razor) with -15% RES on her skill Still, she can cover a lot of bases in one character (Pyro/claymore/shield gen) to possibly give more freedom with the other 3 slots.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:09
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I'm confused where all this "zhongli is unusable trash" stuff is coming from when most tier lists I'm seeing from different languages all just put him in A or S tier. I don't think it's so much Zhongli is unusable trash, it's more that Zhongli is a 5* that is worse than many 4*s at what he is intended to do and is also buggy to boot. Like if he were just another 4*, I think more people wouldn't be quite as vocal. Also geo is a garbage element.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:16
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GrandpaPants posted:I don't think it's so much Zhongli is unusable trash, it's more that Zhongli is a 5* that is worse than many 4*s at what he is intended to do and is also buggy to boot. Like if he were just another 4*, I think more people wouldn't be quite as vocal. Math guy states that his white damage is lower than xiangling, a free 4* unit. He also says that his energy regeneration is extremely erratic and not good enough to fuel his burst, so usually he's relegated as a support character, which puts him in direct competition with traveler geo, which is also a free unit. Combined with his E consuming elemental reactions at a quick pace making him actively detrimental to parties that rely on elemental reactions. Top it off with Mihoyo games just not having defensive characters fit in well and you got a recipe for a completely mediocre 5 star unit that could cost people as much as $400 to pull. If they had some grand design for geo they should have posted the rest of the roster and how they would work because its not a convincing argument to spend 180+ pulls on a limited banner and then those plans not materializing. Hell it could still happen if they actually show Albedo in action and say "This is whats coming in a week and we swear non of his numbers will change from now till release"
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Dec 7, 2020 20:29
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No Wave posted:A lot of supports require energy regen to really enable. Xiangling has an 80 energy ult and pretty bad energy gain but Pyro is OP so enabling her is easy. Idk why you'd be concerned about Zhong Li's ult generation if Ninguang is your carry because it comes for free and he only needs 40 energy. Barbara and Qiqi are both pretty disliked, though. I think their lack of energy generation is a contributing factor in that. Noelle doesn't catch a lot of flak because she's many people's first source of Big Sword damage and shields, but she kinda requires constellations to match up with other characters in those niches. I've got her at level 70 with level 6 talents, but she's C0 because I didn't roll on Venti's banner, so I really only use her for shielding and smashing rocks. I'd love to use her more in combat, but she's just not that great without them.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:34
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I've been using Zhong with Klee a lot and they work well together. Klee kind of suffers from being a little bit of a glass cannon, but letting her hunker down and just blast everything has worked pretty well. No more needing to kite if you just stand there and face tank everything. Her crits also proc that energy regen for the team, so it ramps up pretty quick on ZL if you have a high enough crit rate chance.
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Dec 7, 2020 20:45
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Commoners posted:I've been using Zhong with Klee a lot and they work well together. Klee kind of suffers from being a little bit of a glass cannon, but letting her hunker down and just blast everything has worked pretty well. No more needing to kite if you just stand there and face tank everything. 
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Dec 7, 2020 20:50
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Bloody Emissary posted:Barbara and Qiqi are both pretty disliked, though. I think their lack of energy generation is a contributing factor in that. Qiqi doesn't need energy to do most of her shtick tho. Her burst is just a yet another way she can heal everyone to full. Qiqi rules, I'm glad I have her. Andrast fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Dec 7, 2020 |
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Dec 7, 2020 20:52
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Dec 7, 2020 20:52
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vU7XqToZso
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Dec 7, 2020 21:00
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ElMudo posted:I'm looking forward to an Anemo claymore character for my dream stamina reduction overworld farm team of Amber/Kaeya/double Anemo. Just can't mine efficiently with either of those two or Sucrose/Jean. Do you need the cryo? Razor gets a sprint discount too, and that's a claymore.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:09
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Andrast posted:Qiqi doesn't need energy to do most of her shtick tho. Her burst is just a yet another way she can heal everyone to full. I agree. 4th ascension QiQi is really good at enabling my main dps to face tank bosses lazily every 30 seconds. No ult needed. She ain’t no Bennett I guess.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:10
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i don't think it'd be unreasonable to say Qiqi is focused on healing to the detriment of other things she could be doing. she certainly doesn't need to be spamming her burst since it's already so potent, but generating no energy does end up affecting the rest of your team as well. same for her spotty cryo application. having the level of absolutely unnecessary healing she provides has carried me through things before but as i get people up to speed for new ranks of domain etc, i do start to wish she was more like Jean and had more to recommend her than pure healing.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:16
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dogsicle posted:i don't think it'd be unreasonable to say Qiqi is focused on healing to the detriment of other things she could be doing. she certainly doesn't need to be spamming her burst since it's already so potent, but generating no energy does end up affecting the rest of your team as well. same for her spotty cryo application. She's extremely good at applying cryo for Razor at least. Being able to do it when she is off-field very valuable for him.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:19
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Glazius posted:Do you need the cryo? Razor gets a sprint discount too, and that's a claymore. I want either cryo or hydro for grabbing pyro flowers on the route.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:30
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Andrast posted:She's extremely good at applying cryo for Razor at least. Being able to do it when she is off-field very valuable for him. they're a near perfect pair, though having to balance around her excessive healing potential means a 30s skill CD limits her superconductor uptime. only Kaeya is really offering anything close to 100% uptime though.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:36
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Mang Tomas posted:I’m just mad that Zhong Li doesn’t interact well at all with DPS Ning (unless someone that invested in him would like to learn me). Sick of Geo Traveller. I find Xinyan really fun, im running her as my main right now. If your only able to pull her once she can be a good support for razor. If you get to her c2 at least she can be a respectable dps with a 2pc glad/bloodstained set
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Dec 7, 2020 21:38
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I decided to switch up my teams when doing weapon domains since they're fairly easy anyway, and god drat Diluc/Chongyun is some good poo poo
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Dec 7, 2020 21:39
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dogsicle posted:they're a near perfect pair, though having to balance around her excessive healing potential means a 30s skill CD limits her superconductor uptime. only Kaeya is really offering anything close to 100% uptime though. I feel like I can get effectively 100% uptime with a bunch of ER so I can burst reliably and a sacrificial sword. I don't disagree about her being a one trick pony though, even if the is very good at her one trick.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:41
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Andrast posted:I feel like I can get effectively 100% uptime with a bunch of ER so I can burst reliably and a sacrificial sword. yeah, my sac is glued to XQ otherwise it works well on her if you stagger skill uses. if i hadn't folded them all into one copy then i suppose i could have each character holding one lol
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Dec 7, 2020 21:44
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First off, I'm going to be very peeved if I burn all my rolls and don't get Choungyun. I've done all the story quests that give primogems, burned the 26 I had saved and I'm scraping up as much as I can for free each day at this point. I've gotten everyone advertised on the banner so far except for him. Including Xinyan twice! Getting Razor twice was cool though, I wanted more constellations for him since I use him as my main DPS anyway. Second, what're you guys doing for Ning to get energy playing as her? I try it but it's so ungodly slow that I just use someone else's skill and swap to her so she gets the energy instead.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:52
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dogsicle posted:yeah, my sac is glued to XQ otherwise it works well on her if you stagger skill uses. if i hadn't folded them all into one copy then i suppose i could have each character holding one lol My XQ is still way way behind (and not that high priority either) but I'll probably transfer it over to him at some point. He probably needs it more than Qiqi who will do fine with something that has higher ATK (for even more healing).
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Dec 7, 2020 21:54
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RareAcumen posted:First off, I'm going to be very peeved if I burn all my rolls and don't get Choungyun. I've done all the story quests that give primogems, burned the 26 I had saved and I'm scraping up as much as I can for free each day at this point. I've gotten everyone advertised on the banner so far except for him. Including Xinyan twice! Getting Razor twice was cool though, I wanted more constellations for him since I use him as my main DPS anyway. Mostly you drop gates on idiots. When/If you get C2 that pretty much doubles her energy generation too.
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Dec 7, 2020 21:55
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Bloody Emissary posted:Zhongli's pillars let me hit bosses with Gust Surge, so he's great in co-op in my book. Holy poo poo. Reading the comments on this there's people pointing out that Albedo's skill details line up with this (probably former, at this point) MiHoYo employee ranting at people not wanting to whale hardcore on multiple five stars just to make Zhongli actually work. Apparently Albedo is the first character designed to basically make Zhongli not suck. quote:Abiogenesis: Solar Isotoma Since it's a geo construct that means that it can AOE enemies with the Solar Isotoma. Meaning it automates the process of hitting things and turns Albedo's skill into an AOE damage monster against groups and possible energy generator depending on how much energy each hit generates. So you have to roll for a five star to make the five star you already got not be inferior to other 4 stars in certain areas he's supposed to be good at. Also, this does nothing to alleviate the damage issues Zhongli has, and also adds another issue in that Zhongli and Albedo are limited time five stars. Which means that even if you get both of them (And that is a whaling experience, since I think Albedo is next up on the banner.) you still have one character that's mathematically inferior and buggy and another that only gets the most out of Zhongli being on the team. If you don't have Zhongli? Or you don't have Albedo? Then get hosed, poor. Basic functionality is beyond your means. Archonex fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Dec 7, 2020 |
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Dec 7, 2020 22:12
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I sure hope that guy isn't on the balance team.
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Reiterpallasch posted:some of the artifact domains pretty much demand co-op when you hit 45 if you've been slacking on getting your artifacts up to speed until then. Or if you are F2P. Nonetheless, I have been mostly lucky with matchups for artifact domains. If there is a Venti, the co-op experience is usually beatable. The only bad experience I had is with Childe. Two players immediately died in the beginning, and Zhongli and I had to carry ourselves to victory without heals. And the Zhongli did not mind taking hits since he had shields for days even though the attack pattern affected me as well, and as we were about to win, the host who died earlier kicked us out... But cooping can be pretty fast and resource-free. And there are achievements for co-oping.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:13
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I can see what Albedo might offer to Zhongli, but what does Zhongli offer him?No Wave posted:Childe C6 is imo kind of overrated. You still can't play him like you'd play a Diluc or Keqing where you swap three or more times before burst is back up. C4 is his really powerful one. The main utility of it is occasional hitstun and acting as a ghetto Xingqiu for Diluc. It is a DPS increase but smaller than it seems on paper most of the time. At C6 it'd be different because then you'd always be in melee on him and you'd see more free Slashes, but again, what is staying alive that long with a C6 five star DPS? It'd be like if C6 Diluc also got a Pyro DoT that did 20% ATK every 3s for 15s or something, who gives a poo poo, nothing will survive a C6 Diluc long enough for that extra output to matter. C3 is basically a pure increase to his most prominent source of damage, and C1 greatly increases his flexibility. And yes, I am speaking from practical experience as a C4 Tartaglia-haver, but I'm a weirdo who often uses his bow stance on purpose, so maybe I'm just underrating it. But the real DPS isn't as high as a spreadsheet might lead you to think, and there are precious few places it reaches that peak. Also it can make reaction combos a bit sketchy since it's constantly reapplying Wet, but not as fast as XQ would.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:21
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Albedo doesn't even seem that good, so it's weird to me that people are hyping him up saying "save your gems for the Albedo banner". He has the same issues as any Geo character, i.e. would be better as any other element. In fact, a lot of his numbers look even worse than Geo MC.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:24
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I agree - Albedo seems like a 5* version of Geo MC. Same weapon even. He's still not really a carry unit so he presents the exact same issues of two non-carry non-healer geo units and atm I don't see him turning Zhong Li on in a way that GT doesn't. I am saving my gems for the Albedo banner, but out of hope that we get another premium 4* in addition to Bennett on it. Nakar posted:The value of C4 varies wildly depending on overall team DPS. If things die within 4-7 seconds of being marked, the extra damage is not particularly high and the value of C2 rises dramatically in its place because all the killing is cycling energy at an insane rate where he starts looping like Diluc until you run out of enemies. I'm not sure when one would encounter a situation where a bunch of enemies take forever to die to maximize the extra Riptide procs, and people are overstating the damage. Flash is the default proc (Slash only happens in melee stance meaning Flash always applies if Childe is swapped out) and Flash does less than half the damage of Slash at equivalent levels (assuming the +1 to Flash and +3 to Slash).
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Dec 7, 2020 22:26
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Nakar posted:I can see what Albedo might offer to Zhongli, but what does Zhongli offer him? It's the other way around. Zhongli will still suck compared to other characters you could have in your team. However, Albedo's skill is a placeable geo construct that gets boosted massively by having Zhongli's stele on the field. Since that geo construct can radiate when a stele is nearby that turns his geo construct into a wide range PBAOE on every Solar Isotoma placed. If there is no cooldown on procs (Or if it's just low enough to work with a character attacking a mob in range.) for the Solar Isotoma's attack then you can spam hits on enemies as the Stele hits and then the Solar Isotoma hits while possibly your character also lays out damage causing the Isotoma to hit again as well. Basically, think about how Fischl has immense use in building electrocharged reactions with Tartaglia with her last talent unlocked due to how every electric related reaction causes Oz to hit the enemy with a hitscan type hit for 80% of Fischl's attack. It's like that, except a PBAOE around the Isotoma. And the player may or may not be able to join in for extra hits as well. It's completely predatory and really scummy to boot. They're basically making folks whale for Albedo to get full functionality for both characters. Zhongli is apparently being set up to be a "booster" character like Fischl can be at the cost of having low usefulness compared to 4 stars of comparable types and Albedo isn't going to get his best performance without Zhongli in the team. gandlethorpe posted:Albedo doesn't even seem that good, so it's weird to me that people are hyping him up saying "save your gems for the Albedo banner". He has the same issues as any Geo character, i.e. would be better as any other element. I'm pretty sure that's intentional, since the idea is you want both Zhongli and Albedo to make Albedo work. Kind of like how Zhongli isn't going to really be worth fielding in the long run without someone like Albedo that can run on hit procs. Mind, all this depends on how fast you can proc hits from his Solar Isotoma skill. TL;DR: It's super lovely of MiHoYo if they go this route.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:27
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Archonex posted:It's the other way around. Zhongli will still suck compared to other characters you could have in your team. However, Albedo's skill is a placeable geo construct that gets boosted massively by having Zhongli's stele on the field. There's already a 5* capable of combing like this that everyone has: Geo MC
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Dec 7, 2020 22:29
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gandlethorpe posted:There's already a 5* capable of combing like this that everyone has: Geo MC Geo MC doesn't have a geo construct that does a radial AOE to anything hit near his skill based construct though. That's the big thing that makes Albedo more offensively focused compared to the Geo MC or Ning when interacting with the Steles. I don't know if it'll justify Albedo, assuming people are actually willing to fall for this predatory nonsense. But it's pretty obvious that they're hoping to get away with forcing people to whale hard on Albedo if you have Zhongli, since he's the next big character banner. Archonex fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Dec 7, 2020 |
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Dec 7, 2020 22:30
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if zhongli is a support character and will support future geo characters well, i dont really see the issue? if they kept releasing 5 stars that were flat out better than other characters and could slot into any team it'd be way more concerning.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:30
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Radical posted:if zhongli is a support character and will support future geo characters well, i dont really see the issue? if they kept releasing 5 stars that were flat out better than other characters and could slot into any team it'd be way more concerning. Given how expensive a five star is, there's some serious ethical issues in putting out a character that relies on rolling another five star character to be sufficient within the framework of the gameplay and his intended role according to the devs. At the very least it's a really lovely move. 5 stars should at least be self sufficient within some framework of core gameplay. If they want to make crazy 5 star based reactions then fine. But they should at least be competitive with the other limited 5 stars in terms of gameplay in the role they're supposed to have. As other folks have pointed out Zhongli does not do that at the moment. Andrast posted:I would not assume Albedo's stuff synergises super well with Zhongli just based on that Those are Albedo's skill details as last we knew of them. Unless they get a surprise nerf prior to release like Zhongli did that's what we're working with in terms of his skills. I don't think it's too much to at least go off of what we know right now even if it may change to some degree in the future. Archonex fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Dec 7, 2020 |
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Dec 7, 2020 22:35
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I would not assume Albedo's stuff synergises super well with Zhongli just based on that
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Dec 7, 2020 22:37
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gandlethorpe posted:Albedo doesn't even seem that good, so it's weird to me that people are hyping him up saying "save your gems for the Albedo banner". He has the same issues as any Geo character, i.e. would be better as any other element. If he's solid energy generation and some support then I can see him enabling many characters, none of whom are Zhongli. Hell, if he actually buffs Elemental Mastery when using his Burst, I'd want to team him up with any element other than Geo! He might end up the Geo support we thought Zhongli would be, but in that case where is the DPS? How many Geo characters am I supposed to run in one team, 3-4? Am I supposed to just brute force Abyss Mages and Fatui? I have no idea what the Geo Team Endgame is supposed to be, but it'll need a lot going for it to be worth not using a single reaction character. Archonex posted:It's the other way around. Zhongli will still suck compared to other characters you could have in your team. However, Albedo's skill is a placeable geo construct that gets boosted massively by having Zhongli's stele on the field.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:40
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I don't have any problem with an existing character being made stronger by other characters. If that's driving you up the wall you are going to drive yourself crazy playing this game because that will never stop, it is fundamental to how this game works.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:40
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Archonex posted:Geo MC doesn't have a geo construct that does a radial AOE to anything hit near his skill based construct though. That's the big thing that makes Albedo more offensively focused compared to the Geo MC or Ning when interacting with the Steles. If you're talking about Albedo's constructs extra damage thing, the datamined description says it has an internal 2s cooldown. You don't need anything special to hit that cap. Plus it doesn't even seem like good damage if you get the maximum amount of those procs, as they scale off DEF and not by much. If the scaling numbers are correct, Geo MC rocks deal twice as much damage and can explode for the same amount. Their burst is also incredibly easy to charge and boosts crit while up, which can be maintaned constantly. My first point is, if Zhongli is meant to be a Geo resonance enabler, he can already do that with Geo MC which everyone has but most refuse to try. My second point is, Albedo doesn't even seem like a good Geo MC, lol.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:41
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Archonex posted:Those are Albedo's skill details as last we knew of them. Unless they get a surprise nerf prior to release like Zhongli did that's what we're working with in terms of his skills. I don't think it's too much to at least go off of what we know right now even if it may change to some degree in the future. It really does not look like such a strong synergy that people would need to be pre-emptively angry about it based on flimsy theorycrafting It could be good or it could just as easily not be
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Dec 7, 2020 22:41
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I really would have hoped that this thread would be above all the pearl-clutching over how it's somehow immoral for a game character to be under-tuned. It couldn't possibly matter less, just bench him and move on with life.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:43
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