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Schwarzwald posted:Well, in context to what? The circumstances of his freedom. He's no longer a slave, and makes a promise to his mother that he's going to come back and free her. In an earlier scene, Anakin states that it was a dream of his to become a Jedi and free all the slaves on Tatooine. That he now has been enabled to go forth on that path and try and make that a reality is inherently hopeful, more so that he actively chooses to do so at such a young age. For all TPM's faults, Lucas does a good enough job to paint Anakin as inherently good and compassionate but not without also making sacrifices, and the scene plays to those character strengths imo. teagone fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 00:29
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Vinylshadow posted:It's obviously Booba Feett, his cousin who's totally not a clone what are you talking about Clearly Boba Fett lost his armor to jawas prior to ROTJ, and the dumb-dumb we see get knocked into the sarlaac pit was Timothy Olyphant's character, and this is my 20 minute fan theory video on
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Dec 8, 2020 00:36
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LionArcher posted:Was Qui-Gon wrong though? If he hadn't died wouldn't he have been the perfect teacher for Annie? Qui-Gon couldn’t be assed to save Anakin’s mom as well. A simple flash of his lightsaber and Watto would’ve given both of them up, no podrace needed.
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Dec 8, 2020 00:36
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LionArcher posted:Was Qui-Gon wrong though? If he hadn't died wouldn't he have been the perfect teacher for Annie? Qui-Gon is the only one who knew the order was full of poo poo, that's probably why he wasn't on the council. He absolutely would've been the perfect teacher for Anakin. Obi-Wan was too "by-the-book" despite having a fair bit of influence from Qui-Gon's teachings.
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Dec 8, 2020 00:38
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Anakin's turn to the dark side is due to Qui-Gon cheating on the chance cube. The Force decided to punish his meddling with fate by pushing Anakin to the dark side. The Jedi were right to not free Shmi because it would be further meddling with fate, and this is my 20 minute fan theory video on
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Dec 8, 2020 00:39
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teagone posted:The circumstances of his freedom. He's no longer a slave, and makes a promise to his mother that he's going to come back and free her. In an earlier scene, Anakin states that it was a dream of his to become a Jedi and free all the slaves on Tatooine. That he now has been enabled to go forth on that path and try and make that a reality is inherently hopeful, more so that he actively chooses to do so at such a young age. For all TPM's faults, Lucas does a good enough job to paint Anakin as inherently good and compassionate but not without also making sacrifices, and the scene plays to those character strengths imo. Well, exactly. In the immediacy of the moment it seems like a good thing that child slave Anakin is being taken away from his mother by his new owner that won him by cheating at gambling. Props to George for pulling that off.
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Dec 8, 2020 00:50
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LionArcher posted:Was Qui-Gon wrong though? If he hadn't died wouldn't he have been the perfect teacher for Annie? Remember that Qui Gonn is resisted on every point by the other jedi.
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Dec 8, 2020 01:12
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teagone posted:He's no longer a slave It's more complicated than that. Anakin is no longer chattel in the strict sense and yet he keeps having refer to his elders as "master" and is forcibly kept apart from his mother.
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Dec 8, 2020 01:22
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Schwarzwald posted:Well, exactly. In the immediacy of the moment it seems like a good thing that child slave Anakin is being taken away from his mother by his new owner that won him by cheating at gambling. This feels disingenuous to the story, Qui-Gon's character, and the drama. Anakin isn't being taken away. He's leaving on his own accord to try and make things better, an inherent quality of his character. That the Jedi turned out to not be what Anakin had dreamt of is part of what fuels the underbelly of his tragedy.
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Dec 8, 2020 01:29
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By the time of the events of Phantom Menace, it's arguably already too late for the Jedi and the Republic- the rot is already there. They let slavery flourish on the Outer Rim, they let the Trade Federation get to be a military power, the Jedi didn't even notice a Sith Lord being elected to the Senate. Actually fixing the Republic's problems would require the kind of upheaval neither the Senate nor the Jedi Council are willing to risk. Qui-Gon for his faults at least knows something's wrong, but he's devoted to finding the Chosen One as a solution.
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Dec 8, 2020 01:29
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I wonder if Qui-Gon would have actually been able to sit out the Clone Wars. He's a radical to the Jedi but he didn't go as far as leaving the Order entirely like Dooku.
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Dec 8, 2020 02:05
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Shiroc posted:I wonder if Qui-Gon would have actually been able to sit out the Clone Wars. He's a radical to the Jedi but he didn't go as far as leaving the Order entirely like Dooku. He probably would've joined Dooku tbh, and would have kept him from going in too deep. Dooku was just an inside man who went full Sith. Qui-Gon would've kept him on an even keel. teagone fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 02:16
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It would have been nice for some of this subtext to come up in Anakin's own justification in turning to the dark side. It's well established that Anakin wants to save everyone, even when it's not possible - and you could see him draw the line that the best way to ensure peace is through brutal order and control, which would be a better way of bridging the gap between the heroic Anakin we know being corrupted into the fascist Vader. I know there's a line or two that aludes to this, but it's so stilted and awkward that it doesn't really come across very clear. By that I mean, wouldn't he saying "your inability to act ensured my mother died in slavery!" be a better explicit motivator than "from my point of view the Jedi are evil!"
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Dec 8, 2020 02:52
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Isometric Bacon posted:It would have been nice for some of this subtext to come up in Anakin's own justification in turning to the dark side. Probably have to do away with that scene where he killed a bunch of kids.
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Dec 8, 2020 02:57
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I don’t think one of Lucas’ goals was making his fascist romantic or especially heroic. He’s relatable insofar as he was forced into a hosed situation by an even more hosed system, but he’s deliberately not an audience insert
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Dec 8, 2020 03:02
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Cartoon Man posted:Probably have to do away with that scene where he killed a bunch of kids. Haha yeah. And to that I don't think you need to necessarily remove that scene, or defend Anakins actions, just show how he gradually falls down the slippery slope of being corrupted by the Dark Side. I mean Yoda says it in ESB - the dark side is quicker and more convenient - in Anakins shoes I could see him being tempted by the fact that he could spend years with diplomacy to solve an issue the Jedi way - which won't fix a situation like his mothers... or solve it immediately with violence. The way it plays out in ROTS it looks like Anakin sees an old man being threatened, intervenes to prevent it happening and his first subsequent act is to murder children.
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Dec 8, 2020 03:03
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teagone posted:This feels disingenuous to the story, Qui-Gon's character, and the drama. Anakin isn't being taken away. He's leaving on his own accord to try and make things better, an inherent quality of his character. That the Jedi turned out to not be what Anakin had dreamt of is part of what fuels the underbelly of his tragedy. Anakin absolutely does want to make things better, but he is a child. His desire to make things better will lead him into combat later in the film where he will innocently massacre a slave army. In later films his desire to make things better will lead to further evil. Anakin's desires to do good tend to end badly, so the fact that Anakin is eager and excited to leave with the Jedi isn't much proof that it's the right thing for him to do. Qui-Gon is very similar in that regard. He has a lot of faith and he seems to want to do good, and moreover he seems to be aware of the limitation of the Jedi council and understands that doing good can mean working outside their hierarchy. None-the-less, his desire to do good doesn't get quite so far as to think he should find a way to free Anakin that doesn't involve interacting with the slave trade, and his faith doesn't stretch quite so far as to follow the dreams of his Chosen One and end slavery on Tatooine. The tragedy is that they're both good people doing good to the best of their understanding, but they have crucial blindspots. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 03:09
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Isometric Bacon posted:Haha yeah. And to that I don't think you need to necessarily remove that scene, or defend Anakins actions, just show how he gradually falls down the slippery slope of being corrupted by the Dark Side. At the start of the movie, Anakin kills an unarmed old man because he’s “too dangerous to be kept alive.” He is full of hatred and self loathing for falling short of the standards of his Jedi Order, the teachings of the paragon of justice, Mace Windu At the end of the movie, Anakin encounters the paragon of justice, Mace Windu. The man who spent 10 years telling him that justice meant leaving his mother to die in slavery. Mace Windu is about to kill an unarmed old man because he’s “too dangerous to be kept alive” It’s a clunky line when Vader says “from my point of view the Jedi are evil,” but it’s demonstrating that he has turned his hatred and self loathing outward to the hypocrites who held themselves to a lower standard than they held him to
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Dec 8, 2020 03:11
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Dec 8, 2020 03:36
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 Also, frankly, if there aren't any clunky lines then it ain't Star Wars
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Dec 8, 2020 03:46
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Lucas has some interesting stuff to say about the role of the Jedi in the galaxy in that new Star Wars Archives book:quote:George Lucas: [Stuff about the rise of the Sith]
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Dec 8, 2020 03:49
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"And if you don't comply, your hand comes off. They use their power to keep the governments of all the planets in line, so that they don't do terrible things." legit mafia kneebreakers
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Dec 8, 2020 03:55
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it's kind of like how in Star Trek, the peaceful federation flagship shows up with enough firepower to erase planets. how can you negotiate on such an uneven balance of power?
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Dec 8, 2020 04:12
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Imagine fifteen parallel worlds to this one. Each has contains one unique Star Wars film. We live in the sixtieth with all of them. There is no tv shows or EU akin to ours for simplicity's sake - they have their own unknown ones. Which world would be the most confused? Which the most impressed? Which the most grateful? I feel the worlds with the first and second Ewok films would be pretty satisfied. As would the Christmas special world - albeit parents would probably be a bit confused but kids would catch on to the simple plot. The world with the animated Clone Wars film (2008 was it?) would be stoked as its a fun. The world with A New Hope would probably be the most coherent in terms of placing star wars somewhere. There would probably be quite a bit of EU - but for whatever reason the cries for more films would go unheeded. Maybe it would be seen as a cursed venture. I feel Empire Strikes Back world would also make some sense. It would probably garner much more comparisons to Blake's 7. I do feel TFA would be a massive hit - mindblowing and incredible. The Last Jedi would be odd and weird. The Skywalker final film would be absolutely insane in it's response. I can't help but feel it would be a huge hit. Rogue One would be a small genre niche film.
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Dec 8, 2020 04:39
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Horizon Burning posted:"And if you don't comply, your hand comes off. They use their power to keep the governments of all the planets in line, so that they don't do terrible things." Yeah, it's the kind of authority you'd only entrust to a bunch of fictional monks who have an impossible level of moral discernment as a result of being able to literally communicate with God. But note that aside from the anomaly of the Clone Wars, we only ever see the Jedi use force after their attempts at diplomacy are met with violence. We see it in Episode I after the Neimoidians try to gas a pair of Jedi ambassadors to death, and we see it in Episode VI after Luke's offer to pay Jabba for Han Solo is met with an attempted execution. Also in Episode I, Qui-Gon is adamant that he cannot participate in the Queen's war for her planet beyond personally protecting her from harm, as is his charge. well why not posted:it's kind of like how in Star Trek, the peaceful federation flagship shows up with enough firepower to erase planets. how can you negotiate on such an uneven balance of power? The Jedi don't have flagships with enough firepower to erase planets. In fact, they don't have any flagships at all. They're just a small group of mortal beings who are very good fighters and have a few special powers to aid them. They've ceded all authority over political matters to the galactic government they serve. Until the Clone Wars, they've refused to participate in any military action. For all the moral authority they wield, they use their power in a very restrained way. But note that when it comes to the status quo, this principle of restraint goes both ways. Though they serve the galactic government, they are cosmically smote for using their power to oppose an armed rebellion against that very galactic government. Beyond acting as diplomats between the two sides, the whole thing was none of their business. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 04:45
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Cnut the Great posted:Lucas has some interesting stuff to say about the role of the Jedi in the galaxy in that new Star Wars Archives book: So all the planets in the Republic are just itching to do "terrible things", and the Jedi are there to ensure that they keep the evil to an acceptable level via extralegal "troubleshooting", and this is good to you. Welcome back, to hell!
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Dec 8, 2020 05:09
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Cnut the Great posted:Yeah, it's the kind of authority you'd only entrust to a bunch of fictional monks who have an impossible level of moral discernment as a result of being able to literally communicate with God. LUKE: Nevertheless, I'm taking Captain Solo and his friends. You can either profit by this or be destroyed. It's your choice. But I warn you not to underestimate my powers. (this is before the rancor bit. this is called threats and intimidation.)
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Dec 8, 2020 05:11
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note: luke never offers to pay for han solo. he delivers the droids as a token of good will, then immediately comes in with the force chokes and mind tricks and threats.
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Dec 8, 2020 05:13
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The Jedi are brought in to negotiate at the start of episode 1, and the first we ever see of them negotiating is Qui-Gon trying to mind trick Boss Nass one millisecond after being introduced to him
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Dec 8, 2020 05:18
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2house2fly posted:The Jedi are brought in to negotiate at the start of episode 1, and the first we ever see of them negotiating is Qui-Gon trying to mind trick Boss Nass one millisecond after being introduced to him I actually can't think of any Star Wars media (not counting stuff like the Old Republic video games where you pick the actions and all) where Jedi actually...negotiate or serve as diplomats or all. Like, lots of them GUARDING diplomats, or being sent to check something out, but...when have they ever actually done diplomacy deeper than 'we're Jedi and we say do this'
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Dec 8, 2020 05:32
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"There was a pregnant pause in the room after that. People waiting for George to say ‘just kidding,’ but it never comes, and he just moved on to another point."
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Dec 8, 2020 05:34
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Cnut the Great posted:
they have a skyscraper and end up with an entire army
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Dec 8, 2020 05:40
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I like the part where they're deemed extremely moralistic, in the same sense as the Catholic Church, and it's interpreted as meaning objectively good.
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Dec 8, 2020 05:41
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Episode 1 revolves around gambling on a car chase and doing some boy slavery. I don’t know what George thinks monks are like but have a suspicion.
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Dec 8, 2020 05:43
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I've compared the Jedi to something more like Texas Rangers, mixed with a bit of Knights Templar (and knights of the round table) and the subtext of ANH's opening is absolutely that they're meant to intimidate the Trade Federation into backing down. (actually, the round table seems an especially good analogy given it ends up destroying itself due to its own moral hypocrisy and lack of foresight)
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Dec 8, 2020 05:45
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Horizon Burning posted:LUKE: Nevertheless, I'm taking Captain Solo and his friends. You can either profit by this or be destroyed. It's your choice. But I warn you not to underestimate my powers. Yes, he offers Jabba a way to profit from kidnapping and imprisoning his friend in a state of living death, after which point he'll be left alone in peace. If he refuses, Luke will attempt to take Han by force, which Luke is accurately warning Jabba will likely lead to Jabba's destruction. Agreed, very morally suspect stuff. Horizon Burning posted:note: luke never offers to pay for han solo. he delivers the droids as a token of good will, then immediately comes in with the force chokes and mind tricks and threats. He tells Jabba he wants to bargain for Han's life. He then comes and offers Jabba a chance to profit. He's offering to pay. In an earlier draft, it's established that Luke is planning to pay Jabba with a valuable gem and lie that he has more (unfortunately, Luke is not actually rich). In the meantime, he's hoping Jabba will release Han. This was cut because the details weren't necessary. But the point is that Luke is trying to find a non-violent solution. He's genuinely hoping it will work: Return of the Jedi story conference posted:Kasdan: You can assume that Luke’s plan is multilayered and the court of last resort is they are going to take him to the Sarlacc pit and they’ll all be in place. But when he comes in and says, “I want to bargain for Han,” he is hoping that will work. Luke knows the only way he can beat Jabba's minions is if they're all taken to be executed over the sarlacc, where there will be fewer adversaries and Luke will have a maneuverability advantage. This is risky, but it's the only way he stands a chance. He knows that if a fight breaks out in the place, he'll be killed. So even on a practical level, he's trying to find a way not to fight at all. But morally, he's also giving Jabba an out. Because it's not the Jedi way to go out and kill unnecessarilyi: quote:Lucas: There are already people sending me letters saying Jedi don’t take revenge; it’s not in their nature; it’s just not the way that they are. Also, obviously, a Jedi can’t kill for the sake of killing. The mission isn’t for Luke to go out and kill his father and get rid of him. The issue is, if he confronts his father again, he may, in defending himself, have to kill him, because his father will try to kill him. This is the state of affairs that Yoda should refer to. And then Luke says, “I don’t think he’ll kill me because he could have killed me last time and he didn’t; I think there is good in him and I can’t kill him.” As for the morality of killing, Lucas also has interesting things to say in that new book about how he chose to portray killing in his movies: Star Wars Archives posted:George Lucas: When writing the movies, I tried to make sure that aliens and droids got killed, but not people. So when a nine-year-old Anakin kills a bunch of droids, for instance, it's specifically because Lucas is uncomfortable with the message it would send if he were actually killing a bunch of unmasked people. He doesn't want kids to see that kind of realistic violence. So exactly the opposite of trying to send a message about Anakin callously massacring a slave army. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 05:46
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And of course, being "moral" does not necessarily protect one from making bad decisions. There were a whole lot of good intentions in whatever happened on the way to Episode I.
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Dec 8, 2020 05:46
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Boy, it's a good thing the author isn't alive
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Dec 8, 2020 05:49
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No Mods No Masters posted:Boy, it's a good thing the author isn't alive Then you're free to ignore him. I'm going to keep posting interesting things though. SuperMechagodzilla posted:I like the part where they're deemed extremely moralistic, in the same sense as the Catholic Church, and it's interpreted as meaning objectively good. The author is dead, SMG. You don't have to interpret what he says. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 05:51
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luke force chokes the guards, mind tricks bib fortuna, and then tries to mind trick jabba and when that doesn't work goes 'ah, well, bad luck - i'm taking solo anyway, bring him to me or be destroyed'quote:Yes, he offers Jabba a way to profit from kidnapping and imprisoning his friend in a state of living death, after which point he'll be left alone in peace. If he refuses, Luke will attempt to take Han by force, which Luke is accurately warning Jabba will likely lead to Jabba's destruction. imagine thinking that this is "negotiation" or having "moral authority." it's quite literally blatant intimidation and used to illustrate luke's flirtation with the dark side. just skip to the bit where you meltdown and leave CD again note: your initial point was that the execution came before all of this.
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Dec 8, 2020 05:56
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