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As Nero Danced posted:This has always been my problem too, but not just her acting but the way it's perceived in the world. Up until she's frying Sam's brother her insanity was portrayed as a heroic thing, or at least not morally compromised. She's doing "the right thing" even if it's brutal. They don't commit to the heel turn until late in the series when it should have been acknowledged much sooner. The problem is... the majority of lead characters are in Westeros, a place with numerous families and power bases, established goals and histories, shifting allegiances, and so forth. It's a good setting to present ambiguity. Daenerys, on the other hand, spends the majority of her story in a separate continent, one which doesn't really have any other leads, and whose history and politics are clearly secondary to Westeros'. The majority of characters in her orbit exist simply to support her, not as full-fledged people in their own right. It's not a good setting to present ambiguity. If Tyrion had interacted more with her and if the ending of S6 wasn't a triumphant march to Westeros it might have worked better... for people here. But vast majority of normies who named their kid 'Daenerys' would have hated this ending no matter what. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Nov 13, 2020 |
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Nov 13, 2020 12:39
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I think the problem was really the scoring of all the scenes when Dany burned people. If they had given her theme darker and darker overtones everytime she torched someone it would have worked really well without changing any of the acting. Like if it started triumphant with the burning of Mirri (remember her?! the witch/gang rape victim that Dany decide should heal her injured husband and take care of her pregnancy!) then shifted to be minor tones when she burned the Unsullied leader, then more dissonant and minor when she crucified the masters, then just outright menacing when she burns the Tarly's, and finally a full on orchestral bad guy theme when she torches Kings Landing. Basically once a season she does something evil, just play her theme once a season during those scenes and it'll subconsciously track for the viewer as the series goes on. Solice Kirsk fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Nov 13, 2020 |
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Nov 13, 2020 19:33
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Solice Kirsk posted:I think the problem was really the scoring of all the scenes when Dany burned people. If they had given her theme darker and darker overtones everytime she torched someone it would have worked really well without changing any of the acting. Like if it started triumphant with the burning of Mirri (remember her?! the witch/gang rape victim that Dany decide should heal her injured husband and take care of her pregnancy!) then shifted to be minor tones when she burned the Unsullied leader, then more dissonant and minor when she crucified the masters, then just outright menacing when she burns the Tarly's, and finally a full on orchestral bad guy theme when she torches Kings Landing. Taken out of context the march of the Unsullied out of Slaver's Bay looks and sounds like they're marching out of Mordor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXpHvhjUzAI&t=350s
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Nov 13, 2020 19:46
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Alhazred posted:Taken out of context the march of the Unsullied out of Slaver's Bay looks and sounds like they're marching out of Mordor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXpHvhjUzAI&t=350s Her liberation army was missing a inspiring song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXQJS3Yv0Y
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Nov 13, 2020 19:51
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Solice Kirsk posted:I think the problem was really the scoring of all the scenes when Dany burned people. If they had given her theme darker and darker overtones everytime she torched someone it would have worked really well without changing any of the acting. Like if it started triumphant with the burning of Mirri (remember her?! the witch/gang rape victim that Dany decide should heal her injured husband and take care of her pregnancy!) then shifted to be minor tones when she burned the Unsullied leader, then more dissonant and minor when she crucified the masters, then just outright menacing when she burns the Tarly's, and finally a full on orchestral bad guy theme when she torches Kings Landing. in the context of the show itself none of those things except for Kings Landing are "evil" or "crazy" Our first hero protagonist in S1, most honorable and noble man in all of westeros, Ned, cut a guys head off because he was scared and ran from white walkers. Jon, second most noble and honorable man in Westeros executed a child and several others because they did a coupe. Dany killing a murderous witch who killed her man and aborted her baby, or killing a slavemaster who kills and enslaves children etc... doesn't register to people as evil in the least Collapsing Farts fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Nov 13, 2020 |
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Nov 13, 2020 20:49
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The only way to make those kills sinister is to give us insight into Danaerys mind so we realize that perhaps she enjoys punishing people to some extent, until it culminates in the final seasons where she outright delights in the destruction of all who oppose her As it was, it was a hardcore characterization whiplash going from "justifiable executions of enemies and defender of common people" to "we need to kill this entire city of defenseless common people cuz my friend died  "
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Nov 13, 2020 20:56
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Collapsing Farts posted:
Mirri killed the man responsible for her being raped, her peaceful village being burned and her people being butchered for no reason other than the dothraki needed food and enjoys killing and raping people.
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Nov 13, 2020 21:25
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Yeah and she also turned a baby into hamburger soooo I mean basically no one saw Danaerys as a "bad guy" in s1 so it's nothing to really argue there
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Nov 13, 2020 21:28
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Collapsing Farts posted:in the context of the show itself none of those things except for Kings Landing are "evil" or "crazy" You don't have to change anything about motivations or anything like that to change the music for Dany to give people a more and more sense of foreboding with each escalation. That's the beauty of music in movies/television. It is known.
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Nov 13, 2020 21:29
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Collapsing Farts posted:Jon, second most noble and honorable man in Westeros executed a child and several others because they did a coupe. I don't recall any automobiles in the show. Was it a background detail they forgot to edit out again?
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Nov 13, 2020 22:20
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I think it was an error to have her become all twitchy and paranoid in the lead up to KL. There's a good reveal buried deep down - where everyone thought her fury and bloodiness across the sea was because she was fighting brutal slavers but actually, no, she is always like that. But that is totally undermined if she 'descends into madness'. It would make more sense if she treated purging KL like business and usual and never really considered that she might be doing something wrong.  What's the problem you guys we have done this a hundred times before, should have joined me shouldn't they?
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Nov 13, 2020 23:38
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Why did she have to become an antagonist at all? How was that satisfying in any way? We've spent 7 years watching her be one of the main protagonists and then because the writers had no idea what to do they have her go nuts, in the last 3 episodes of the entire series How about making the last season more about the war against the walkers and the uniting of the kingdoms against them instead of snuffing that entire storyline out in episode 3
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Nov 14, 2020 00:29
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Strategic Tea posted:But that is totally undermined if she 'descends into madness'. It would make more sense if she treated purging KL like business and usual and never really considered that she might be doing something wrong. Yeah, the madness bit was definitely a bigger weakness; it undermines any characterisation about her dangerous lust for power to just have her boringly lost the genetic lottery. She was a Taragryan and they're crazy, so you can just torch her existing character and have her act as violently as the plot demands.
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Nov 14, 2020 00:39
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Olly deserved what he got
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Nov 14, 2020 00:52
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bobjr posted:Olly deserved what he got Yup nothing like whining and backstabbing because someone else made a politically + military savvy move.
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Nov 14, 2020 02:10
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I think Daenerys lost any claim to the moral high ground when she abandoned her newly freed slaves to an uncertain future in order to launch an invasion of another continent for revenge. Admittedly the show completely failed to emphasize this point but it's clear from the overall shape of the narrative that Daeny was going to go bad.
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Nov 14, 2020 02:28
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One of the most complained about things was the fact that Danaerys went evil right after they defeated the White Walkers. It wasn't really narratively obvious at all before that point. Like, even in the very season where she cracks, she spends half the season selflessly helping the living fight off the dead at great cost to her own armies. Contrast that with the actual villains (Cersei, Euron) who refused to help at all. Narratively, up to that point, Danaerys had been a liberator, a conqueror and hero. Even her theme music up to that point was in the style of "the force of good arrives!!" whenever her dragons would show up to save the day. It starts at 2:30 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9e_INLnJts&t=150s . Easily the best musical theme for any character as well tbh.  This music actually changes in the last episodes and gets darker tones. Not before then though Zzulu fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Nov 14, 2020 |
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Nov 14, 2020 13:05
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Do you think all those people who named their kids Kaleesi or Dany or something are annoyed?
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Nov 14, 2020 15:42
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I hope so because those people are broken in the brain
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Nov 14, 2020 15:43
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Karl Drogo and Kelly C are kickass names and you are never going to convince me otherwise 
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Nov 14, 2020 15:50
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I mean I think Dany is an ok name, but to force your kid to go around being called Kaleesi...that's like calling your son Mister or Boss and believing you're so drat clever.
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Nov 14, 2020 15:51
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The dumbest name in the show is probably Drogon. Drogon the Dragon. Get the gently caress right outta here
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Nov 14, 2020 17:29
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Collapsing Farts posted:Why did she have to become an antagonist at all? How was that satisfying in any way? We've spent 7 years watching her be one of the main protagonists and then because the writers had no idea what to do they have her go nuts, in the last 3 episodes of the entire series Because that's how the books will end but D&D in their infinite wisdom cut out the major character that's likely the catalyst for it.
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Nov 14, 2020 18:06
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Kevin Lannister, master of the fleet
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Nov 14, 2020 18:34
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ere Kezza, your niece is drunk again
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Nov 14, 2020 18:35
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Van Dis posted:The dumbest name in the show is probably Drogon. Drogon the Dragon. Get the gently caress right outta here The kid who wrote Eragon put more thought into it.
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Nov 14, 2020 18:37
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Drogon was named after Drogo morons!
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Nov 14, 2020 18:45
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I was watching some posts in reddit yesterday and realized that Sam: - Found the Winter Horn - Stole his father's valyrian sword - Stole books from the citadel And ended up using none of them. Sam is the ultimate "I might need these 99 potions for later" RPG hoarder.
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Dec 7, 2020 19:29
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As Nero Danced posted:This has always been my problem too, but not just her acting but the way it's perceived in the world. Up until she's frying Sam's brother her insanity was portrayed as a heroic thing, or at least not morally compromised. She's doing "the right thing" even if it's brutal. They don't commit to the heel turn until late in the series when it should have been acknowledged much sooner. I still don't know if her acting was her fault or the showrunners, because every major woman character ended up on valium by the end because they think stoned means stoic. I think the character was just a victim of its own popularity. Like Dany was the most popular character on the show by far, so they couldn't make her the bad guy. Most of her bad aspects were just removed from the show, and her violence was always treated as heroic until the show realized woops she has to go crazy because we cant think of anything else to do babypolis fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Dec 8, 2020 |
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Dec 8, 2020 01:07
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I was wondering what would have made for a more thematically appropriate ending today and considered that, in a show basically about kings, lords, nobility, power, the feudal system and how all those things aren't as shiny and noble as they're portrayed in most fantasy - really the only ending that would have brought things to the right conclusion would have involved half the cast marching to the guillotine.
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Dec 8, 2020 12:13
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massive spider posted:all those things aren't as shiny and noble as they're portrayed massive spider posted:guillotine  history is a bitch
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Dec 8, 2020 12:46
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I'm not saying the guillotine is an unironic force for good, I'm saying that historically thats the most notable example of how a monarchy ends, that or someone like Oliver Cromwell making a good attempt at ending it. The shows ending Tyrion makes a speech and everyone descides to play a bit nicer, it felt like they were trying to say the monarchy as it existed was over, democracy was maybe, sorta on its way but also knowing that that was so absurd the characters literally laugh the idea of it.
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Dec 8, 2020 12:57
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They also did tyrion dirty in the end and ignored him in the history book for no reason at all didn't they? Despite the fact that a war was basically started over his kidnapping?
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Dec 8, 2020 15:33
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but it was a funny scene lol just trun off ur brain m8
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Dec 8, 2020 15:44
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Joffrey and Tywin had to go back to their home planet and definitely weren't suspected to be poisoned and shot by a guy we decided to leave out.
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Dec 8, 2020 15:48
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ilmucche posted:They also did tyrion dirty in the end and ignored him in the history book for no reason at all didn't they? Despite the fact that a war was basically started over his kidnapping? the war was started over his kidnapping, he was the fill-in hand of the king for Joffrey, he was accused of murdering Joffrey leading to a particularly brutal trial by combat which led to the death of a Dornish small council member, he actually murdered his father (who was the hand of the king and the head of one of the major families), then he became hand of the queen to Daenerys, then he set up Daenerys to be shanked if he was just one of those things then I get him being left out on accident but you'd have to deliberately leave him out for a stupid joke to make it work
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Dec 8, 2020 16:43
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In the books it might make more sense, Tyrion is currently a pretty terrible person (he raped a girl, felt bad, and then did it again) who hates both his siblings. GRRM has outright called him a villain. A thought I had this week was that since the books include the poison basilisk blood which causes savage violent madness, if Tyrion in the books, his "I wish I had enough poison to kill all you ungrateful cunts" rant might be foreshadowing for him dosing Dany with basilisk blood.
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Dec 8, 2020 18:03
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A premodern history written to flatter the author's institutional backers and advance a personal ideology at the expense of "what actually happened" makes plenty of sense. After all, Tyrion's based on Richard III, who was not some scheming hunchbacked monster who monologued about how much he hates joy and goodness, but he lost the war to a guy who wanted to make sure everyone knew how extremely justified he was in doing so. The book's supposed to be Holinshed's Chronicles, it's supposed to be a biased account that favors the winners. What makes no sense about it is that Tyrion was one of the winners. He is the second most powerful man in Westeros with a specific interest in how history remembers him and these events; we have to assume this is the dumbest Maester ever to so openly and directly snub him like that. If Cersei won and history was recorded like that play in Braavos, with the horny, vicious dwarf cruelly murdering The Good King Joff, that would make sense. If he was a court hanger on with no power who got written out of history because the historian loving hated Lannisters or wanted to turn the story into a sermon on the Faith of the Seven (where a whoremongering drunk doesn't fit), that would also make sense. ...I do wonder, though, if Martin envisioned an ending like the one we saw, but the point of it being a lot more ironic and darker—Bran is a weak king, the kingdoms are now much more independent of royal authority, and Westeros is falling apart. An entire region secedes, the region with the king's own family, at the first chance, the Citadel in Oldtown doesn't even consider the Hand of the King to be someone they even have to pretend to homage, and the other offices of small council have basically been looted by other people who were on the winning team. Factor in the Iron Bank almost certainly going bankrupt from the Baratheon losses, you're gonna have ripple effects across the economy, with less trade and travel driving a dark age.
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Dec 8, 2020 18:42
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loving Bronn becomes the Master of Coin and that's a lol
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Dec 8, 2020 18:45
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Member when Bronn took a 500 mile day trip to Winterfell on the eve of the Great Zombie War, casually walked into a castle that was prepping for attack, threatened a couple people and then peaced out for awhile? My expectations were subverted af.
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Dec 8, 2020 19:36
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