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drrockso20 posted:A hard reboot is still the easiest way to fix the game honestly A hard reboot with a set rotation, specifically. They really, really need something inherent to the game's design to keep power creep in check.
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Dec 9, 2020 05:35
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Vandar posted:That's what Rush Duels are. Those are just weird side formats that will be dead soon enough, not an actual solution to the problem affecting the real game King of Solomon posted:A hard reboot with a set rotation, specifically. They really, really need something inherent to the game's design to keep power creep in check. Or they could just set more hard limits in the rules to what cards can do and how much they can combo with other cards
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Dec 9, 2020 05:39
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drrockso20 posted:Those are just weird side formats that will be dead soon enough, not an actual solution to the problem affecting the real game Currently, the way Yu-Gi-Oh! works is, there are two ways to sell new product: ban the existing decks and power creep. Adding a set rotation does two things for the game that are positive: 1) it gives a reason to buy new product that isn't "my deck can't beat the new powerful cards" and 2) stops the game from becoming the current over 10,000 card monstrosity that it currently is. I realize that people love to play their old favorites, especially with new support, but you can just reprint those cards when you want to see those decks come back anyway.
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Dec 9, 2020 05:44
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I still think that trying to fix YGO with set rotation is the wrong way about things, because the game not having set rotation is the most interesting thing about it from an external perspective. The fact that cards you remember from the early 2000s get play is genuinely what brought me back, and is what makes the game interesting compared to other games like it. They're kinda poo poo at it right now, but that's not the fault of their overall approach, that's the fault of someone at Konami having a fanatical, unrequited crush on Crystron Halqifibrax.
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Dec 9, 2020 05:54
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Cleretic posted:I still think that trying to fix YGO with set rotation is the wrong way about things, because the game not having set rotation is the most interesting thing about it from an external perspective. The fact that cards you remember from the early 2000s get play is genuinely what brought me back, and is what makes the game interesting compared to other games like it. They've been poo poo at it for the entire lifecycle of the game, because the issue is fundamental to the game's design. Like I said, the only tools they have to sell new product are bans and power creep, and that means they're going to lean heavily on the latter.
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Dec 9, 2020 05:59
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Cleretic posted:I still think that trying to fix YGO with set rotation is the wrong way about things, because the game not having set rotation is the most interesting thing about it from an external perspective. The fact that cards you remember from the early 2000s get play is genuinely what brought me back, and is what makes the game interesting compared to other games like it. I mean set rotation wouldn't completely eliminate that, for one thing plenty of the old cards would definitely see reprints under this model(especially if they do base sets like Magic does), and they'd probably create some sort of historic or legacy format to allow for old cards to still see play too
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Dec 9, 2020 05:59
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drrockso20 posted:Those are just weird side formats that will be dead soon enough, not an actual solution to the problem affecting the real game Speed Duels are all but confirmed dead, but what makes you say this about Rush Duels? They are very much a full reboot of the card game that fixes some of the inherent problems with the TCG/OCG, have unique card designs and full anime support. We don't know how well they'll be supported at a tournament level because of covid, but I think we can expect them to be pushed quite a bit once live events aren't a death trap for children.
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Dec 9, 2020 06:06
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Set rotation would be the absolute worst because Konami is loving terrible at reprints.drrockso20 posted:Those are just weird side formats that will be dead soon enough, not an actual solution to the problem affecting the real game Speed Duels ARE going to be dead soon but they've locked themselves pretty hard into Rush Duels for the foreseeable future. It's something they are very solidly behind and most likely won't be going anywhere for a long time.
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Dec 9, 2020 06:13
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Set rotation would remove all incentive for Konami to do legacy support except in nostalgia products. Which would lead to Yugi and Kaiba being printed every rotation, and they already get the lion’s share of legacy cards (outside Blackwing). This would be a huge shame because Ancient Gear is still an incredibly fun rogue deck that exists solely off of legacy support nostalgia. Also power creep would still happen, because the power creep isn’t about selling cards it’s about running out of card designs and needing the new anime to be the coolest thing ever every time. Also I think the ownership of the card game would actually make set rotation impossible anyway. Konami just need to be better about putting things in the banlist, and taking them off.
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Dec 9, 2020 06:30
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Skeleton Mom posted:Speed Duels are all but confirmed dead, but what makes you say this about Rush Duels? They are very much a full reboot of the card game that fixes some of the inherent problems with the TCG/OCG, have unique card designs and full anime support. We don't know how well they'll be supported at a tournament level because of covid, but I think we can expect them to be pushed quite a bit once live events aren't a death trap for children. It'll die the moment Sevens finishes, I mean have we heard anything about them releasing anything for it here in the West, even the anime hasn't officially left Japan yet
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Dec 9, 2020 06:31
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Lord_Magmar posted:Set rotation would remove all incentive for Konami to do legacy support except in nostalgia products. Which would lead to Yugi and Kaiba being printed every rotation, and they already get the lion’s share of legacy cards (outside Blackwing). Some level of power creep is inevitable. The insane level of power creep that Yu-Gi-Oh! has is extremely unusual, and it's really obviously because the banlist isn't enough to slow things down. drrockso20 posted:It'll die the moment Sevens finishes, I mean have we heard anything about them releasing anything for it here in the West, even the anime hasn't officially left Japan yet I think there was a trademark or something? No big official news about releasing outside Japan yet, in any case.
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Dec 9, 2020 06:34
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I would argue that there isn’t an extreme amount of power creep though. If you compare DM to VRAINS sure. But the start of VRAINS had new cards that were powerful and nobody played them because full power True Drafo was an unbeatable deck. The problem is that without real world data Konami refuse to touch the problem outliers, whereas in the past they were relatively quick to slamdunk things like Zoodiac, and which it and Dragon Rulers are still probably way more powerful than the current stuff. I would argue that the other problem is that MtG started with some absurdly busted cards, whereas Yugioh started with a meta where an 1850 ATK 4 star monster was unbeatable. Ban Verte and ban Halq and you fix half the issues right there, because no Verte means no easy dragoon and no Halq means all those combos are smothered in the crib.
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Dec 9, 2020 06:47
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Some of the most broken cards in Yugioh's history were in the first couple sets.
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Dec 9, 2020 06:59
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drrockso20 posted:It'll die the moment Sevens finishes, I mean have we heard anything about them releasing anything for it here in the West, even the anime hasn't officially left Japan yet I think there's reason to believe that international release was delayed because of covid, since people are less likely to buy physical product for a game they can't even play in person. Same goes for anime, they aren't going to air the 22 minute commercials for a card game that people can't buy yet.
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Dec 9, 2020 07:02
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Vandar posted:Some of the most broken cards in Yugioh's history were in the first couple sets. Yes, Konami is capable of making design mistakes. That they didn't realize that Draw 2 Cards was insane when they printed the first Yu-Gi-Oh set doesn't mean that the overall power level of DM wasn't so much lower than the modern format that it isn't basically a completely different game.
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Dec 9, 2020 08:56
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For all their differences, magic and yu-gi-oh are both cases where the early version of the game had completely nonsensically overpowered non-permanent cards and the modern version of the game has the vast majority of its most powerful cards be permanents, typically creatures/monsters. honestly the weird part about it in yu-gi-oh is that handtraps are monsters for no particular reason than 'this is how we do these effects', which makes the proportion of good new cards that are monsters artificially higher (the other reason is 'the rules of spells and traps means they shouldn't typically activate from the hand', which is obviously a very flimsy rule given how simple yet effective cards like infinite impermanence are).
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Dec 9, 2020 10:27
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The problem with "but you can play your old cards" is that you really can't. Yeah, you can physically use some of your old cards, but that'd be true if the cards got reprinted anyways. Practically speaking, though? Anything that anyone's got that's more than a couple years old and hasn't been reprinted recently is either A) completely obsolete, or B) banned because somebody discovered a combo with it that lets you go +5. Even the legacy archetypes tend to require so many new support cards that it's basically a whole new deck. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Dec 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2020 12:04
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PMush Perfect posted:The problem with "but you can play your old cards" is that you really can't. Yeah, you can physically use some of your old cards, but that'd be true if the cards got reprinted anyways. Practically speaking, though? Anything that anyone's got that's more than a couple years old is either completely obsolete, or banned because somebody discovered a combo with it that lets you go +5. I don't think that's necessarily true. On the super-high-end, sure, especially right now, but there are cards that get new life that aren't necessarily broken just because a later development happened to be kind to them, either intentionally or not. My favorite example (which I've brought up here before) is actually Lava Golem. He's never really been a playmaker, although he's definitely a card people know, but over the years he's found more use than when he was first added because the notions of board control and what you want your opponent to have changed; back then, a 3K beatstick was legitimately scary so you probably wouldn't go for it, but now that things are more effect-heavy he's got some use to him, especially with his unorthodox style of removal getting around most protection (which also didn't exist when he turned up). He's got legitimate place in Shaddoll decks, for example, because he happens to interact pretty favorably with some of their big cards that were designed independently. Sure he got reprinted with them, which is why he's a reasonably common combo piece with them now, but he'd still be a useful inclusion if he wasn't. You've also got the cases of general bread-and-butter cards that are simple enough to always be useful, while not being powerful enough to ban. Your Monster Reborns and Polymerizations. Sure, they probably won't get people excited, but they're there. (EDIT: Wrote all the above before you put in the 'haven't been recently reprinted', but it's largely still true) I think the value of the open-ness of YGO isn't necessarily the actual usefulness, though, and more the potential for it. The notion that if you're clever enough, some random cards you remember from years ago might end up being useful in a modern deck. Sure, everyone likes to win, but not everyone wants to win with the exact same deck, and to a lot of people there's some genuine appeal in the idea that in 2020 they could throw someone off by cracking out a random card they had lying around from years ago that they only remembered because of a villain of the week in GX. Not everyone will be competitive at a YCS, but there's a bunch of people who'd get really excited about being that one weirdo that won a local this year with a Celtic Guardian deck. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Dec 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2020 12:43
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Cleretic posted:You've also got the cases of general bread-and-butter cards that are simple enough to always be useful, while not being powerful enough to ban. Your Monster Reborns and Polymerizations. Sure, they probably won't get people excited, but they're there. (EDIT: Wrote all the above before you put in the 'haven't been recently reprinted', but it's largely still true) To be clear, this is also normal in games with set rotation. I've bounced in an out of MtG for actual decades, and to my knowledge there has never been a time when Giant Growth was not legal. You do not need the main format to be a legacy format to have staple cards that are always around.
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Dec 9, 2020 12:47
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King of Solomon posted:and to my knowledge there has never been a time when Giant Growth was not legal girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Dec 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2020 14:07
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Sevens is actually a quite popular show over there so far, so even if Rush Duels are only going to be around as long as it is that could end up being a while.
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Dec 9, 2020 15:53
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the downside of set rotation is that powerful, popular cards that see play in non-rotating formats will literally never be printed, ever again, because being printed in any meaningful quantity means being legal in the standard format. i balked at lightning storm being $200 when i was idly looking at dinosaur deck lists, but konami at least has the ability and presumably willingness to print it into the ground soon (and then put pankratops back to 3), while magic cards like tarmogoyf or JVP (not even the ones with a weak legal basis for not being printed) just...don't get reprinted, because gently caress you, buy our $20 packs that are $20 because we can't possibly reduce the price of the cards we're reprinting
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Dec 9, 2020 23:06
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well we have a new banlist and it's aggressively acceptable. they hit all the turn 1 decks except virtual world and did basically nothing else, so i expect the meta to mostly be virtual world mirrors with a few controlish decks that can beat a turn 1 VFD, like dinos and eldlich
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Dec 10, 2020 22:44
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My general expectation after thinking about the list for a few minutes is: we'll see a bunch of Virtual World, Dragon Link, Dinosaur, and Zoo Eldlich. Dragoon will be more popular than ever. The rogue decks will be slightly more successful. E: Oh, and Halq combos with MPB Auroradon will still be plentiful, just weaker. King of Solomon fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Dec 10, 2020 |
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Dec 10, 2020 23:02
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They finally did it. Those madmen finally did it. https://ygorganization.com/whynotjustcybersetho/ Vandar fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Dec 13, 2020 |
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Dec 13, 2020 13:24
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i don't think the errata matters, really. it doesn't have any effect on the strongest possible play you can make with the card. nobody could ever beat firewall pass
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Dec 13, 2020 23:36
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ungulateman posted:i don't think the errata matters, really. it doesn't have any effect on the strongest possible play you can make with the card. nobody could ever beat firewall pass That 'strongest possible play', though, far as I can tell, is far less useful now. The thing gets slowed down a lot by its effects now being once per turn, but also, the fact that its hand summoning effect is limited only to Cyberses means that it's not really very useful in most decks.
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Dec 14, 2020 05:38
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Having it back, even with the errata will still (probably) be a buff to Code Talkers, and they've been seeing rogue play here and there.
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Dec 14, 2020 05:52
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ungulateman posted:i don't think the errata matters, really. it doesn't have any effect on the strongest possible play you can make with the card. nobody could ever beat firewall pass This Had me in the first half Vandar posted:Having it back, even with the errata will still (probably) be a buff to Code Talkers, and they've been seeing rogue play here and there. Definitely. Code talkers are a neat do-everything deck, and the good kind that depends on your deck building skills. It seems from now on theyll be making any generic cyberse stuff more xenophobic.
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Dec 14, 2020 13:20
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Rigged Death Trap posted:It seems from now on theyll be making any generic cyberse stuff more xenophobic.
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Dec 14, 2020 21:31
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yeah, i think master rule 4 was trying very hard to curtail how much decks are reliant on extra deck summoning, but it did such a bad job that they needed to scrap it and now link summoning is just the best form of extra deck summoning without any intrinsic downsides. a link-2 is basically strictly better than a fusion, synchro or xyz summon, which is why they have to keep slapping restrictions on them and/or making all the good cards link-3+. (to say nothing of the part where link-1 cards mostly obsolete the handful of cards that let you destroy your own stuff) for example, it's why borreload savage dragon is going to be the best generic synchro monster for the foreseeable future, because unless you're virtual world or a similarly restrictive archetype you're going to end up with links in your deck anyway and you might as well play the synchro boss monster that synergises with them! part of that is also that omni-negates are really powerful but that's an entirely different can of worms.
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Dec 14, 2020 22:01
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If the past few formats of MR5 are what it takes for Konami to destroy the concept of the generic extra deck monster, then it'll all have been worth it.
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Dec 14, 2020 22:21
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King of Solomon posted:If the past few formats of MR5 are what it takes for Konami to destroy the concept of the generic extra deck monster, then it'll all have been worth it.  New pipe dream about how the game could be changed: I want to see some kind of massive, sweeping rule that destroys the concept of a generic extra deck monster. Something like "each of the materials for the summon of an extra deck monster must share a type or an attribute with the monster being Summoned, unless the material monster is specifically named by the card." (Or some other way to be sure that archetypes that are spread across Types and Attributes still work.) Then a few erratas to cover the corner cases, and you've just supremely hampered the generic extra deck monster. I mean, it's still gonna exist on some level, you can still Scapegoat into Link Spider, but you can't Scapegoat into Firewall.
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Dec 14, 2020 23:10
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PMush Perfect posted:
I'd like them to go even further. I'm not sure if it's possible to include this in the core rules, but I think any archetypal monster should require archetypal materials either as part of their summoning requirement or as the whole summoning requirement. So, for Verte Anaconda, it would be either Two effect monsters, including a Predaplant monster or Two Predaplant effect monsters. It would make things a little more difficult for extra deck cards that support gameplay mechanics rather than archetypes (like Union Carrier), but I think you could figure something out (for Union Carrier specifically, I like Two monsters with the same Type or Attribute, including a Union monster.)
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Dec 14, 2020 23:23
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PMush Perfect posted:
If you do something like this, you're just going to make DARK and LIGHT and Dragon and Warrior even stronger than they already are and you'll make like, FIRE and Reptiles even weaker than they already are. There's nothing inherently wrong with generic extra deck monsters, it's just that Link was an awful mechanic that completely broke the concept of such a thing. Vandar fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 23:29
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Vandar posted:If you do something like this, you're just going to make DARK and LIGHT and Dragon and Warrior even stronger than they already are and you'll make like, FIRE and Reptiles even weaker than they already are. Virtual World decks don't even play Link monsters. What Link monsters do is make an already busted concept even more egregious.
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Dec 14, 2020 23:39
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just implement a duel links style banlist (1 card total that is limited to 1, 2 cards total that are at 2, 3 cards total that are at 3) so powerful generics can only be run in lower tier decks because they conflict with other limited cards in higher tiers
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Dec 15, 2020 00:02
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Skeleton Mom posted:just implement a duel links style banlist (1 card total that is limited to 1, 2 cards total that are at 2, 3 cards total that are at 3) so powerful generics can only be run in lower tier decks because they conflict with other limited cards in higher tiers
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Dec 15, 2020 01:40
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Skeleton Mom posted:just implement a duel links style banlist (1 card total that is limited to 1, 2 cards total that are at 2, 3 cards total that are at 3) so powerful generics can only be run in lower tier decks because they conflict with other limited cards in higher tiers This is the only workable solution I've ever heard regarding rebalancing. Want to play a copy of pot of greed? Sure but it costs 30 out of 30 of your deck building points.
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Dec 15, 2020 09:23
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miniscule12 posted:This is the only workable solution I've ever heard regarding rebalancing. well, they still can't bring back unbalanced generics like this. the trouble is that any deck that's new and performing well but doesn't have any direct hits yet like eldlich (in tcg anyways) or infernoble would gain access to pot of greed or graceful charity, which unbalances the game way further. the only way they could bring cards like that back is if they released a banlist as often as they release new product, and maybe even pre-emptively hit certain decks before release. unlike letting cards stay banned, that could hurt future product sales, so pot of greed is never escaping the banlist without a debilitating errata
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Dec 15, 2020 10:17
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