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ilitarist posted:If BioWare made a game about USA Reigan 80s every gay in it would get AIDS by the end of their story arc. I don't think any of this is true. If anything, BW is too fond of black and white morality. Everybody know that BW game always have a third and "everybody lived happily ever" after option which makes all other options patently "wrong." It's why everybody remember Bhelen vs. Harrowmont where you get two choices and they both suck. Sometimes the comparison is made between DAO and ASOIAF but DAO never descends into that kind of cynicism outside of Orzammar. There's ALWAYS aright choice that involves as little killing as possible with everybody's grievances being attended to. Do you: a) kill werewolves and never learn anything about them or inform the Dalish about their leader, b) kill elves and leave the werewolves condemned to their horrible painful transformed states forever, or c) save both and make everybody happier and better for it. Hm, tough one. Sure you can give the Collector Base to Cerberus but literally everyone on your ship afterward will yell at you for it so...seems pretty clear what the game wants you to do. This tend holds true in most every BW game and choice. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Dec 10, 2020 |
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Dec 10, 2020 12:43
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NikkolasKing posted:" It's why everybody remember Bhelen vs. Harrowmont where you get two choices and they both suck. It would've been so much better if the post-coronation scenes of the two kings was reversed.
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Dec 10, 2020 12:56
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In general I'm tired of video games trying to be morally gray by making everyone a jerk. I'd be more interested in a story where you have limited resources, and every major character is trying to improve some aspect of society, and you have to choose which you prioritize. That way you never get the stupid "gotcha" moments with everybody calling you out or patently wrong answers. Basically a morally gray story because everybody is an idealistic do-gooder, they just have different priorities which introduces conflict.
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Dec 10, 2020 12:58
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NikkolasKing posted:Do you: a) kill werewolves and never learn anything about them or inform the Dalish about their leader, b) kill elves and leave the werewolves condemned to their horrible painful transformed states forever, or c) save both and make everybody happier and better for it. Hm, tough one. And I remember this as one of the few choices where you could do some additional work to get a better outcome. DAO still has this legacy of good and bad Jedi, but even it is full of "equalized" choices. Everywhere else it's like BioWare writers try to add circumstances to make a "right" choice seem questionable. Everybody yells at you for giving collector base to Cerberus because it's an obvious thing you would do, let people who hired you and proved they're fighting an existential threat weapons to do so. Mass Effect is full of those, and so is Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition. I struggle to name any dumb or bad thing you're allowed to do in Inquisition - maybe get a deal with the demon?..
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Dec 10, 2020 13:18
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ilitarist posted:I struggle to name any dumb or bad thing you're allowed to do in Inquisition - maybe get a deal with the demon?.. DAI doesn't actually have many choices in the main quest, but you can piss off all your companions, some of whom will leave (or not join in the first place), and get Blackwall killed. You can charge forward at the temple of Mythal to kill a lot of elves, or let Celene be murdered and frame Briala, resulting in the worst ruler. You can support Vivienne for divine, or turn Liliana into murderPope. You can also save a few of your mates at the cost of a whole ship's worth of lives. There are also war table decisions, which always have best answers (though often no worse ones).
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Dec 10, 2020 14:06
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There were black and white decisions in every side area of DAO. In haven you got the decision to piss in the ashes of a saint for no reason. In the circle you had to choose between murdering every mage or being a hero and saving every survivor including the head mage. In brecillian you got to choose between reconciling the hosed up issue, or just murdering one side. In orzammar you got to choose to spare branka and let an unhinged lunatic have control of a magic soul stealing anvil, or... you know, kill her. There were never reasons given to do these evil things, besides that you're playing a jackass run for the hell of it. Bioware tried to do ASoIaF style grey morality but it utterly failed at every aspect of it. The only grey moments are the Joining (duncan shivving someone with the murder knife for secrecy) and the choice between harrowmont and bhelen.
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Dec 10, 2020 14:24
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At least making Gaspard, Briala and Celene work together turns out to be a bad choice in Inquisition. Your mileage may vary which of the other options is best (Briala controlling Gaspard? Briala and Celene reunited?), but there was no golden ending where everyone worked together and everybody was happy.
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Dec 10, 2020 14:27
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Ironically side with the Mages originally had a negative end slide. Fiona would have been killed by a second, and the new College would have fallen to a group of Blood Mages who attempted to form a second Tevinter Imperium before having the whole group purged by the Inquisition. They changed the slide after realizing most people would side with the Mages, laff. The big problem of the whole Mage/Templar conflict is we've now had three games showcasing how Mages really can't self govern. Even outside of the too many Blood Mages aspect, the biggest problem is the Uldred Question. A single angry Mage can break a Circle, force most of it into Blood Magic through mind control, and Mages struggle to fight against demons/veil breaks/Abominations. All it takes is one, and the entire well meaning College dies because there is nobody around with magic resistance to stop it. And this is never really given a satisfactory fix, see them just Cullen style changing the epilogue slide to give it a feel good ending without ever explaining how the new College of Enchanters will deal with this problem. Meanwhile if you go Templars you give Mages tons more freedoms, reform the Templars, add in a ton of new oversight for the Templars, etc etc. Everyone is happier, without a "my freedums!". You go from one ending where you have multiple layers of oversight and freedom, and one with literally zero oversight because it's the feelgood that'll keep this train running.
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Dec 10, 2020 14:29
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One part of the problem is that mages brought up in the circles can't be trusted to control themselves, while other cultures were quite a bit better in that regard without needing to resort to something as drastic as templar oversight.
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Dec 10, 2020 14:37
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It's very funny how at odds the actual text of Dragon Age is with how the writers want you to feel about mages. It's honestly the most interesting thing about the setting and I keep going back and forth as to whether or not they arrived there intentionally.
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Dec 10, 2020 14:39
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Torrannor posted:One part of the problem is that mages brought up in the circles can't be trusted to control themselves, while other cultures were quite a bit better in that regard without needing to resort to something as drastic as templar oversight. Uh? Qunari rip out their tongues and give them handlers. The Dalish arent a large enough peoples to have many Mages. Those that become Mages get given to other tribes that need Firsts to be trained. Both the Keepers we meet mention a lot of Firsts don't make it. Tevinter is a nightmare realm where power begets power, and if you have Magic you can do whatever you want as long as you dont piss off another Magister. Rape, murder, slavery, blood magic, anything goes as long as you don't do it to someone more powerful then you. The Ancient Elven mages may have had something to do with the fall of the world/creation of the Fade Please tell me which group handles magic well. I'm not sure we've met this culture yet.
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Dec 10, 2020 14:46
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Rookersh posted:Please tell me which group handles magic well. I'm not sure we've met this culture yet. The Avvar from Jaws of Hakkon have a fascinating approach to handling their mages, where they invite possession early on from friendly spirits in order to build up a resistance to it, and those who are deemed too weak just remain connected to their "guides."
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Dec 10, 2020 15:19
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There's also the Necromancers mentioned in Inquisition from one of the other countries or cities I can't remember the name of. They're like cool necromancers, not Skyrim res the undead zombie horde necromancers.
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Dec 10, 2020 15:27
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NikkolasKing posted:There's also the Necromancers mentioned in Inquisition from one of the other countries or cities I can't remember the name of. Rivain I think? Cassandra's uncle is one IIRC?
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Dec 10, 2020 15:41
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I'm the odd person out because I sided with the Templars my first run through of Inquisition. I think there was a part of me that went 'wait, you want me to ally with the mages again? After the last two games? Nope nope nope, I'm not walking into another dream sequence or having a church blow up again.' And then the Templar sequence happened.
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Dec 10, 2020 15:55
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KittyEmpress posted:There were black and white decisions in every side area of DAO. In haven you got the decision to piss in the ashes of a saint for no reason. In the circle you had to choose between murdering every mage or being a hero and saving every survivor including the head mage. In brecillian you got to choose between reconciling the hosed up issue, or just murdering one side. In orzammar you got to choose to spare branka and let an unhinged lunatic have control of a magic soul stealing anvil, or... you know, kill her. There's absolutely a reason to side with Branka and that reason is that the Golems are a proven effective weapon against Darkspawn. You could also argue the same for siding with the Werewolves in the Brecilian Forest. Although it's pretty hard to trust them since they're bloodthirsty killers ravaged by a curse.
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Dec 10, 2020 15:56
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You can also side with Branka because Oghren is, frankly, a mess. Okay but that also means pissing off Shale so I always side against her.
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Dec 10, 2020 15:59
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Mages are inherently more dangerous that just about every other kind of person in the world because they come in naturally with more power than non-mages. Their abuses aren't made worse by their emotional drives, which everyone has, but because they can tear open reality and command minds. Mages are a blight on the creatures of the world and the Qunari are right. Ancient elven mages killed the bones of the world and comported themselves as gods. They altered reality as they saw fit with no regard to the consequences. Ancient Tevinter mages did the same. Mages of the current age would do the same, and are often seen attempting to. gently caress mages.
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Dec 10, 2020 17:40
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Rookersh posted:Ironically side with the Mages originally had a negative end slide. Fiona would have been killed by a second, and the new College would have fallen to a group of Blood Mages who attempted to form a second Tevinter Imperium before having the whole group purged by the Inquisition. This is the first time I've heard of this
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Dec 10, 2020 18:10
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Generic American posted:The Avvar from Jaws of Hakkon have a fascinating approach to handling their mages, where they invite possession early on from friendly spirits in order to build up a resistance to it, and those who are deemed too weak just remain connected to their "guides." Oo. Neat! I mean there is obviously going to be a scale issue, the Avvar are a smaller tribe, there are a LOT of Mages, but it's still. It also gets around the biggest Mage issue, which is self governance. You can have the wisest, smartest council in the land, and a single fault line in a weak Apprentice can topple the whole thing. The second demons get introduced your whole Circle collapses and even your wise and fair leads are possessed. But if they had more resistance through working with spirits, that fixes a lot of that. SgtSteel91 posted:This is the first time I've heard of this It came from one of the many post quitting Gaider interviews. Where he talked about how the setting is largely planned out and they have answers for the big questions already, but do fiddle with stuff from time to time. Mentioned the Mage arc was one of those fiddles. Its three games of setting up this as a horrible idea, but they realized people were too fond of the Mage freedom idea so scrapped that ending and remade it a bit.
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Dec 10, 2020 18:28
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My two cents, they went too hard on how oppressive the Templar Order was, where the Circle was, at best, a university with a fully militarized swat force for security that had legal authority to kill everyone at any moment, and a prison at worst. And this all is looking at small pictures, where the main problem is the Chantry having too much power over both groups and preaching fear of magic and fostering resentment towards Mages and self-loathing in Mages themselves, while also hopping their private army with addictive and brain deteriorating substances. It's why I always support Leliana for Pope, she recognizes the problems come from the top and wants to change the entire system from the ground up. But it's funny, when Inquisition came out it was softened Leliana who I made Pope, but after 4 years of [gestures towards all that] hardened Leliana might have the right idea. But I really don't think hardened Leliana is mentally good for her in the long run. SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Dec 10, 2020 |
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Dec 10, 2020 18:41
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Admiral Ray posted:Ancient elven mages killed the bones of the world Refresh my memory about this, please
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Dec 10, 2020 18:45
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ApplesandOranges posted:There's Karl, the girl that Anders almost murders, and that one other mage with Grace who's just kinda spineless. Merrill being so incompetent that she lets her entire clan die over blood magic demons unless you are mean to her 100% of the time is functionally the same as being intentionally evil And we don't actually know if Karl was seconds away from going full abomination before getting tranquiled up since 99% of his colleagues do
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Dec 10, 2020 18:49
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VostokProgram posted:Refresh my memory about this, please Ancient Elven Gods fought Titans, Ancient Dwarven Progenitor beings, to harvest their blood, Lyrium This might have also caused the creation of red Lyrium and the Blight, maybe
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Dec 10, 2020 18:50
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Ginette Reno posted:There's absolutely a reason to side with Branka and that reason is that the Golems are a proven effective weapon against Darkspawn. You could also argue the same for siding with the Werewolves in the Brecilian Forest. Although it's pretty hard to trust them since they're bloodthirsty killers ravaged by a curse. Yeah I've always sided with both Bhelen and Branka because the dwarven situation so dire. They've been pushed back to a single city and are slowly losing ground to the darkspawn. If the dwarves fall I believe its specified that the darkspawn would likely start attacking even without a Blight with nothing to hold them back. With Bhelen opening up the military to commoners and Branka pumping out golems, even if both aspects are built off of some seriously messed up foundations they actually represent a real chance for the dwarves to take back the deeproads and put their race back on track from the edge of extinction. Rookersh posted:Oo. Neat! I mean there is obviously going to be a scale issue, the Avvar are a smaller tribe, there are a LOT of Mages, but it's still. And yet somehow the most successful and stable Magical hierarchy in the modern era is Tevinter, who freely practice blood magic, necromancy and conspire with demons all the time. Really makes you think. SgtSteel91 posted:But it's funny, when Inquisition came out it was softened Leliana who I made Pope, but after 4 years of [gestures towards all that] hardened Leliana might have the right idea. But I really don't think hardened Leliana is mentally good for her in the long run. Murderpope all the way.  Wolfsheim posted:Merrill being so incompetent that she lets her entire clan die over blood magic demons unless you are mean to her 100% of the time is functionally the same as being intentionally evil Merrill was 100% correct in that she knew what she was doing and that it was a thing worth doing. She wasn't corrupted by blood magic or the demon at all. It was her dumbass Keeper that messed everything up. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Dec 10, 2020 |
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Dec 10, 2020 18:57
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Are Saarebas trained in any way? They're always the most powerful enemy mages, but their treatment doesn't seem to leave much space for magic education.
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Dec 10, 2020 18:58
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Nephthys posted:Merrill was 100% correct in that she knew what she was doing and that it was a thing worth doing. She wasn't corrupted by blood magic or the demon at all. It was her dumbass Keeper that messed everything up. What really gets me is that the whole thing could have been avoided if Merrill's Keeper had agreed to pool her magic with Merrill to cleanse the shard, like she did with the Dalish Warden It's the only reason Merrill learns Blood Magic in the first place SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Dec 10, 2020 |
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Dec 10, 2020 19:04
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wologar posted:Are Saarebas trained in any way? They're always the most powerful enemy mages, but their treatment doesn't seem to leave much space for magic education. The impression I got is they are tortured to madness and the non useful ones just get killed. Also with the mage arc they kind of did the xman thing of making them stand in for modern oppressed groups, so like, of course most people are going to side with the mages. If they made more of them like Viviene there might have been some more middle ground, but she was too little too late.
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Dec 10, 2020 19:07
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Nephthys posted:Merrill was 100% correct in that she knew what she was doing and that it was a thing worth doing. She wasn't corrupted by blood magic or the demon at all. It was her dumbass Keeper that messed everything up. Merrill was absolutely going to be possessed by a demon if Hawke/the Keeper hadn't been there to stop it
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Dec 10, 2020 19:09
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Merrill makes some terrible decisions, but it’s also clear she learned poor judgement from Marethari who chooses possibly the worst way conceivable to stop her protege.
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Dec 10, 2020 19:24
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If the DA4 thing at tonight's Game Awards is just another cinematic teaser trailer, then there's no hope for it
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Dec 10, 2020 19:24
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Nephthys posted:Merrill was 100% correct in that she knew what she was doing and that it was a thing worth doing. She wasn't corrupted by blood magic or the demon at all. It was her dumbass Keeper that messed everything up.
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Dec 10, 2020 19:25
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Fruits of the sea posted:Merrill makes some terrible decisions, but it’s also clear she learned poor judgement from Marethari who chooses possibly the worst way conceivable to stop her protege. look when you're stuck with an apprentice who basically has the mind of a child you do the best you can
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Dec 10, 2020 19:41
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SgtSteel91 posted:If the DA4 thing at tonight's Game Awards is just another cinematic teaser trailer, then there's no hope for it they did say it wasn't gonna be another "wow we love dragon age and working on it, so amazing, here is some footage of development" so that's something
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Dec 10, 2020 19:55
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Fruits of the sea posted:Merrill makes some terrible decisions, but it’s also clear she learned poor judgement from Marethari who chooses possibly the worst way conceivable to stop her protege. Her entire clan is full or racist idiots who tried to murder me and my friends for defending ourselves. Who were so poisoned by fear from the Keeper's lies that they'd rather run into the nest of giant monsters than stand even a few feet away from Merrill. The moral of Merrill's story is that family is people who have faith in you and love you and her clan clearly had none of that.
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Dec 10, 2020 20:11
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NikkolasKing posted:Her entire clan is full or racist idiots who tried to murder me and my friends for defending ourselves. Who were so poisoned by fear from the Keeper's lies that they'd rather run into the nest of giant monsters than stand even a few feet away from Merrill. I do have to give DA2 credit that the friend/foe system of party approval can create two very divergent stories and morals Like the above totally makes sense for the friend path, while the foe path it becomes a cautionary tale of pride and audacity
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Dec 10, 2020 21:00
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Nephthys posted:And yet somehow the most successful and stable Magical hierarchy in the modern era is Tevinter, who freely practice blood magic, necromancy and conspire with demons all the time. Really makes you think. Wait. The society where if you arent born with magic you arent a citizen. Where if you are born without magic you have no rights, and can be enslaved, murdered, blood magic batteried, raped, or worse with zero repercussions unless you have a Mage patron who will defend you. The society where even being a Mage isnt enough, and Mages with limited talent are killed, or have the magical power ripped from their body to fuel more powerful Mages spells, killing them extremely painfully. The society where "demons and abominations run freely", only held back by the fact if they cross a more powerful magister they'll be destroyed. But otherwise can kill and maim as they wish to the aforementioned non citizens. The society built around constantly killing each other with magic, constant power struggles, and constantly purging the nonMages/slaves for more blood/power. This is the place you point at for "magic done right"? Fruits of the sea posted:Merrill makes some terrible decisions, but it’s also clear she learned poor judgement from Marethari who chooses possibly the worst way conceivable to stop her protege. Yeah if you are a Mage you can get some info on this. The traditional clan system should have/would killed Merrill for what she did far earlier. It's the aforementioned "firsts dont always make it".
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Dec 10, 2020 21:25
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SgtSteel91 posted:Ancient Elven Gods fought Titans, Ancient Dwarven Progenitor beings, to harvest their blood, Lyrium  ) it infected them and since they're enormous giant beings it's now kinda spread all over. There's speculation that the Old Gods are actually some of those ancient elven godkings who talked magisters into it trying to get free of where Solas stuck them, which I guess is a roundabout way of saying they're responsible after all 
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Dec 10, 2020 21:25
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Rookersh posted:Wait. In previous editions of this debate, the traditional retort is "that's just Chantry propaganda." And if we put aside what we see Tevinter slavers willing to do casually in Origins, even Tevinter homeboy Dorian admits that this stuff happens, just behind closed doors. The Chantry propaganda part is mostly just saying its public, but in actual fact the rules of society say you can't just do that out in the open. I think it says something about what happens behind those closed doors that people are willing to throw everything away, even their identity and sense of self, to join the Qun rather than remain a slave in Tevinter. marshmallow creep fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Dec 10, 2020 |
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Dec 10, 2020 21:28
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Soysaucebeast posted:The Xbox does support mods for some games. I'm not sure what the criteria for that is, or if it's something the dev's have to support/approve or what, but my boyfriend plays both Skyrim and Fallout 4 with shitloads of mods on the Xbox One X. It's not just texture packs either, he got one mod that adds an entirely new party member and questline to Skyrim. From what I've seen of it, it's really in depth. I know this is an older post, but nobody fully answered it as far as I saw. You can mod the PlayStation versions of FO4 and Skyrim, but you are not allowed to import any new graphical assets. So no titty mods.
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