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Just finished replacing all of the ancient 2-prong outlets in my office with GFCI protected 3-prongs. Found this on the last outlet on the chain.   Luckily the most load I ever put on that outlet was a small vacuum.
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Dec 9, 2020 04:21
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SpartanIvy posted:Just finished replacing all of the ancient 2-prong outlets in my office with GFCI protected 3-prongs. The contacts are so flimsy in those things that crappy connection probably doesn't even matter. Did you do GFIs to get the third prong without an actual ground exception?
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Dec 9, 2020 04:50
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Elviscat posted:The contacts are so flimsy in those things that crappy connection probably doesn't even matter. Exactly
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Dec 9, 2020 04:55
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Cosmik Debris posted:I've heard nothing but horror stories about AFCIs. Apparently they don't play well with florescent lights and some light switches. Reports of AFCI issues have been greatly exaggerated. If they don’t play well with your light switch your light switch has failed and needs to be replaced because the contacts are arcing (or there’s a wiring fault downstream of the switch) and the AFCI is doing its job correctly. If they don’t play well with fluorescents replace your lovely old magnetic ballasts with any electronic ballast from the last 20 years. Or install LED retrofit lamps and remove the ballasts entirely. And while you didn’t mention this, if they don’t play well with X10 home automation or powerline networking equipment it’s because it’s 2020 and nobody should be using that garbage anymore when WiFi and zigbee exists. Edit: The single greatest reason AFCIs got a bad rap was because they exposed existing wiring faults that people chalked up to nuisance trips because “the old breaker didn’t trip” corgski fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Dec 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2020 07:08
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corgski posted:Reports of AFCI issues have been greatly exaggerated. Quoted for truth.
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Dec 9, 2020 13:18
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Elviscat posted:Did you do GFIs to get the third prong without an actual ground exception? Yes, when labeled "No Equipment Ground". That sticker should come in the box with the receptacle along with a bunch of "GFCI Protected" outlets for the grounded scenario where you have regular outlets downstream of the GFCI.
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Dec 9, 2020 16:31
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Wrong thread
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Dec 9, 2020 20:48
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Hey wiring thread, I have what may be an impossible question: A nonprofit I work with runs a residental program for new moms that are recovering from addiction, and as part of dealing with COVID, they have had to reduce the use of their common spaces. One of the ways they did this was to put a mini-fridge in each room (I think there are abut 25 rooms) for the moms to store food, breast milk, etc. Because of this they are being told that they need to upgrade their electrical service, but have not had anyone out to give them a quote for this. Of course, they have a donor that wants to pay for this but needs to know RIGHT NOW (by Monday) how much they need, and they're not getting an electrician out there on that quick of a turnaround. The person I'm talking to doesn't know what the current service amperage is, or what they need to go up to, so I can't answer that, unfortunately. So: Anyone have any sense of how much it is to get a new drop and panel installed in a commercial-ish (think like a church) space? $10K? $50k? It's residential so they don't need anything crazy like 1000 amps of 440 or anything.
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Dec 11, 2020 16:25
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Could be 5k, could be 50k, could be 200k, could be more. It depends heavily on the state of the building’s wiring and what else will be needed to bring it up to code with the new service.
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Dec 11, 2020 16:31
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corgski posted:Could be 5k, could be 50k, could be 200k, could be more. It depends heavily on the state of the building’s wiring and what else will be needed to bring it up to code with the new service. Ha, this, this right here is what I was afraid of, especially because I have no idea if what's beyond the panel is 100 year old knob and tube or 20 year old romex from when they upgraded.
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Dec 11, 2020 16:48
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stealie72 posted:Ha, this, this right here is what I was afraid of, especially because I have no idea if what's beyond the panel is 100 year old knob and tube or 20 year old romex from when they upgraded. If they used to have crt tv's in every room and now have lcd's a mini fridge isn't going to put them over. Has anyone clamped the circuits to see actual draw to these rooms?
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Dec 11, 2020 17:00
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H110Hawk posted:If they used to have crt tv's in every room and now have lcd's a mini fridge isn't going to put them over. Has anyone clamped the circuits to see actual draw to these rooms?
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Dec 11, 2020 17:15
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stealie72 posted:I have no idea. I said almost impossible question because I gave all the info I have. But i was also a little surprised that 25-ish mini-fridges would put a building over the edge. It's more that 15 of them might be on a single chained circuit running down the hallway.
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Dec 11, 2020 17:34
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H110Hawk posted:It's more that 15 of them might be on a single chained circuit running down the hallway.
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Dec 11, 2020 17:36
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stealie72 posted:The odds of this are somewhere between probably and highly likely. And thus you have your answer. A commercial electrician can quickly answer this. Who told the church it needs to be done and on what evidence? Either way the gambler in me would spitball it at $50k being the most likely if you seriously need a new panel and multi floor multi room runs with iffy access at best. If the building is old enough to have asbestos risk this could spiral quickly. Don't forget drywall repairs. How's your grant writing? Are there house the homeless dollars around?
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Dec 11, 2020 17:41
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H110Hawk posted:If they used to have crt tv's in every room and now have lcd's a mini fridge isn't going to put them over. Has anyone clamped the circuits to see actual draw to these rooms? I'm betting it's this, and that they need some extra circuits run because the breaker(s) keep tripping. Who is telling them they need to upgrade their electric service? It seems unlikely to me that a person qualified to make that call couldn't give some idea of what work is needed. Location, pictures, and a description of the actual issues they're having, if any, would probably get you a spitball estimate.
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Dec 11, 2020 18:44
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H110Hawk posted:And thus you have your answer. A commercial electrician can quickly answer this. Who told the church it needs to be done and on what evidence?
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Dec 12, 2020 02:16
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What's the start up draw of a mini fridge? If a few compressors kicked on at the same time I imagine that would probably pop a breaker.
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Dec 12, 2020 03:54
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I'm considering finally installing outlets in my basement "shop" room. I've been surviving off of 1 GFCI outlet (with the GFCI conveniently located in the garage, it's also connected to the exterior outlets which used to trip whenever it rained) and unplugging my sump pump whenever I want to run a tool on the other side of the room. I have a new found appreciation for extension cords and cordless tools because of this room. My main panel is also in this room, 3/4 of the walls are concrete the last wall has exposed studs and drywall on the other side. Because tools often draw 13 amps and I might like to plug in more than one at a time, I would like to run two 20 amp circuits. I have read all about installing a breaker, I think I know the process, but I think legally I have to either call an electrician or go take a "self wiring" test at city hall if I ever find time to devote an hour of time to thumbing through the code book. Simply put, if they don't offer that test on Saturdays, I'm probably not going to take it. I know an electrician who I believe would be willing to come out and hookup the circuits, I would like to install the conduit and boxes my self and maybe even wire all the outlets so that the electrician doesn't have to spend any more time than necessary away from his family on a Sunday. I believe I need to use conduit and metal boxes for the outlets on concrete walls, is this correct? The part where this gets a little crazy and maybe a bad idea is that I want two circuits, and I would like to have them split to feed one circuit on the top outlet, one circuit on the bottom outlet. I could do every other outlet, but if I can go fancy, why not? I believe this means I need to break the hot tabs off of my outlets, use 4 conductor romex, to wire the hots separate and neutrals together. If sharing neutrals is not acceptable, I could make two runs of regular 3 conductor romex. I would also need a multiwire branch circuit breaker which supplies both circuits, but has the shut off switches connected in order to kill all power to the box when you flip a switch. Is any of this likely to be against code? Are there any other special considerations I may have missed for a multiwire branch circuit?
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Dec 16, 2020 15:45
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The only thing I can think of is how do you get gfci+afci protection? Tandem gfci breaker or two singles with the bar added? Make sure to hook up the ground to the boxes with green ground screws. If you're doing metal conduit and boxes I think you can get away with single wire pulls, so a spool of black, red, white, green gets you there. I would call and ask if you can take the test over zoom or something.
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Dec 16, 2020 16:33
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I have a dumb homeowner question. We have a place that dates back to ~2009 including new, up-to-code electrical. Whole house, including HVAC/hot water, is electrical. 2 panels actually (a lot of amps available). Inspectors (we bought this year) though the panels looked great, nothing sketchy with the breakers or install. To get to the point: Our home office (telework era) room is on one breaker. We have like 3 computers, bunch of monitors, associated support hardware (e.g. modem/router) and normal lights. I recently tried plugging in a space heater for a little local leg warming, and the breaker tripped. Doing some reading, my understanding is that code for a breaker will typically have them set up to trip if you go over 15A / 115V, so ~1725W total for the breaker. A typical 1000W space heater plus the existing computers would trip that. My questions...: (a) do I have that generally correct? I'm not really a DIY guy and not a home electrician. Never tripped a breaker due to overloading with space heater and computers before, but also never been this heavy on a home office setup. (b) if I wanted to have an electrician run one particular outlet to a separate breaker, or otherwise split the room to two breakers (so we can have beefier computers in the room or a space heater), about how much should I expect to pay for that work, ballpark?
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Dec 16, 2020 17:36
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pmchem posted:I have a dumb homeowner question. We have a place that dates back to ~2009 including new, up-to-code electrical. Whole house, including HVAC/hot water, is electrical. 2 panels actually (a lot of amps available). Inspectors (we bought this year) though the panels looked great, nothing sketchy with the breakers or install. Yes, you're right in your assumption. Your computers are probably pulling 300-400 watts and space heaters at full bore pull 1500 watts. If you don't need that much heat, you could get one that has lower settings. I've got one that can be run at 700, 800, or 1500 watts and I keep it on 800. Another solution would be to get a heavy gauge extension cord and power the heaters or computers from an adjacent room/circuit. The computers would be the better option in that situation since they're lower wattage. Adding a new run for a dedicated 15 amp could vary wildly in cost depending on where everything is located and the distances involved, but it probably wouldn't be cheap.
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Dec 16, 2020 17:50
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What rooms are adjacent to your home office and are any of them on separate circuits from it? If you can find an outlet on a different branch that's on the other side of an interior wall and tap off of that it'll be the easiest solution by far.
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Dec 16, 2020 18:07
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SpartanIvy posted:Yes, you're right in your assumption. Your computers are probably pulling 300-400 watts and space heaters at full bore pull 1500 watts. If you don't need that much heat, you could get one that has lower settings. I've got one that can be run at 700, 800, or 1500 watts and I keep it on 800. thanks. and yeah I just double-checked the label on my space heater and it would pull 1500W at max. shame on an IGA posted:What rooms are adjacent to your home office and are any of them on separate circuits from it? If you can find an outlet on a different branch that's on the other side of an interior wall and tap off of that it'll be the easiest solution by far. a couple of bedrooms, different circuits. when you say "tap off that" I presume you're referring to re-wiring something? I'd probably want an electrician for that, given the risks to home and health. if this is a $1k job for an electrician I'd just do it, but if it's a $10k job, eh, I can live without a space heater.
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Dec 16, 2020 18:14
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pmchem posted:a couple of bedrooms, different circuits. when you say "tap off that" I presume you're referring to re-wiring something? I'd probably want an electrician for that, given the risks to home and health. Yeah, basically you would cut a hole in the wall where you want to run the new circuit, ideally very close to where the existing / different-circuit outlet is on the other side of that wall. Then you'd run a short length of wire between the two and connect it. If such a thing is possible, this should be well under $1k by an electrician.
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Dec 16, 2020 18:20
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Daisy chaining off an outlet for another room that shares a wall is definitely the way to go if possible. Good call.
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Dec 16, 2020 18:32
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You should check that your space heater isn't going to trip the other circuit before anything. Space heaters can draw a lot of amps even if you turn them down. Don't rely on the settings to actually be half or two-thirds or whatever.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:13
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glynnenstein posted:Don't rely on the settings to actually be half or two-thirds or whatever. Yeah, most space heaters are just "on" or "off". Turning them down means they are "on" for less time, but it's still just cycling between full tilt and off.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:14
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IMO just get a smaller space heater. 500W would probably be enough if all you're doing is heating the space under your desk.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:20
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H110Hawk posted:The only thing I can think of is how do you get gfci+afci protection? Tandem gfci breaker or two singles with the bar added? Make sure to hook up the ground to the boxes with green ground screws. It would depend on the cost of a breaker, my plan would be either a GFCI tandem connected breaker if such a device exists, or a non-GFCI breaker and a pair of either GFCI outlets or GFCI buttons. I'm fine either way, but I think I found a breaker that might work for $150 vs a $30 breaker and two $15 GFCI outlets. I'm not sure what the correct term is for the GFCIs that fit in an outlet box but don't have outlets, I think I would prefer buttons instead of having to open my panel if it ever trips. I could do 2 regular GFCI outlets right next to each other, but I don't think I would like the look of that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I could wire two different circuits to use the same GFCI outlet.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:43
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Not Wolverine posted:It would depend on the cost of a breaker, my plan would be either a GFCI tandem connected breaker if such a device exists, or a non-GFCI breaker and a pair of either GFCI outlets or GFCI buttons. I'm fine either way, but I think I found a breaker that might work for $150 vs a $30 breaker and two $15 GFCI outlets. I'm not sure what the correct term is for the GFCIs that fit in an outlet box but don't have outlets, I think I would prefer buttons instead of having to open my panel if it ever trips. I could do 2 regular GFCI outlets right next to each other, but I don't think I would like the look of that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I could wire two different circuits to use the same GFCI outlet. I have no idea on doing a double-gang GFCI setup for a shared neutral setup. "faceless" seems like the answer: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-20-Amp-125-Volt-SmartlockPro-Blank-Face-Dual-Function-AFCI-GFCI-Receptacle-White-AGRBF-W/311738971 (Just get a combo.)
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Dec 16, 2020 20:35
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Not Wolverine posted:It would depend on the cost of a breaker, my plan would be either a GFCI tandem connected breaker if such a device exists, or a non-GFCI breaker and a pair of either GFCI outlets or GFCI buttons. I'm fine either way, but I think I found a breaker that might work for $150 vs a $30 breaker and two $15 GFCI outlets. I'm not sure what the correct term is for the GFCIs that fit in an outlet box but don't have outlets, I think I would prefer buttons instead of having to open my panel if it ever trips. I could do 2 regular GFCI outlets right next to each other, but I don't think I would like the look of that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I could wire two different circuits to use the same GFCI outlet. Just do a double box with two GFI outlets then regular outlets down from there, or pay out for the breaker. You can't share a neutral unless you go with a double pole GFCI/AFCI so you might as well do two neutrals the whole way. Splitting the outlet top and bottom is super duper silly, and everyone just alternates outlets, but it's your house so you get to do whatever you want.
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Dec 16, 2020 23:51
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Motronic posted:Yes, when labeled "No Equipment Ground". That sticker should come in the box with the receptacle along with a bunch of "GFCI Protected" outlets for the grounded scenario where you have regular outlets downstream of the GFCI. The building inspector laughed when he saw these while inspecting my house and said "Nobody uses those over here, as they're taken off the moment I leave".
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Dec 17, 2020 00:13
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Elviscat posted:Splitting the outlet top and bottom is super duper silly, and everyone just alternates outlets, but it's your house so you get to do whatever you want.
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Dec 17, 2020 01:54
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Not Wolverine posted:I think I am focusing a little too much on what I could do and not what I should do. My main concern with alternating outlets on two circuits would be trying to easily tell if I put two tools on the same circuit. When they are right beside each other it's obvious they are a different circuit, but if they are several outlets apart or on the other side of the rooms it's less obvious. I'm considering using two different colors of outlets, but I don't know what color scheme I would like best. Don't be a coward break those tabs. Ptouch label them. Or use 2gang boxes and get 4 outlets per run. Left is A and right is B. Plus at the end of your 12/3 run throw on a 14-20R. Maybe use 10/3. 
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Dec 17, 2020 02:00
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H110Hawk posted:Don't be a coward break those tabs. Ptouch label them.  A 14-20R at the end sounds absurd, but a ring circuit. . . It's good enough for the UK.  This room is kinda small and I doubt I will ever have any large expensive 240v tools in this room.
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Dec 17, 2020 03:41
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Not Wolverine posted:I think I am focusing a little too much on what I could do and not what I should do. My main concern with alternating outlets on two circuits would be trying to easily tell if I put two tools on the same circuit. When they are right beside each other it's obvious they are a different circuit, but if they are several outlets apart or on the other side of the rooms it's less obvious. I'm considering using two different colors of outlets, but I don't know what color scheme I would like best. Use hospital grade orange Hubbel receptacles for one circuit and white for the others, duh. Actually Hawk's "make every box a double" is a loving great idea for a workshop, since a bunch of small tools is a much more common problem than two giant loving tools, and that solves both problems easily. Do not take Hawk"s other joking advice about the 240v outlet though holy poo poo.
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Dec 17, 2020 07:09
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Elviscat posted:Actually Hawk's "make every box a double" is a loving great idea for a workshop This is what I did when I rewired my garage workshop last year, every box is double gang with white outlets on the left and brown on the right. Especially useful since it's detached and everything is suplied from one piece of 10/3 buried beneath asphalt.
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Dec 17, 2020 12:37
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Elviscat posted:Use hospital grade orange Hubbel receptacles for one circuit and white for the others, duh. As for the 240v outlet. . . is that even possible? It would use both hots and connect them to the same outlet, but both hots shouldn't be connected, until something is plugged in. And when something is plugged in, I assume only that device should receive 240v, so long as it's functioning properly. If I ever do want a 240v outlet (I don't) I'll run a new circuit, I'm just curious if that crazy idea is even possible.
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Dec 17, 2020 14:03
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That's exactly how (household) US 240V stuff works - they get two legs of 120V, 180 degrees out of phase. It's two hots, from different sides of the transformer. This is also why you have two 120V feeds into your panel. Don't loving do that 14-20R though.  I know Hawk meant that as a joke, but for those who don't know, anything 240 in the US needs a dedicated circuit. It WOULD work, but it wouldn't be to code. Spitballing, it'd probably be safe if you had a tandem 2 pole 20 amp breaker, but... no, don't do that. Just don't. No. Bad.stealie72 posted:I have no idea. I said almost impossible question because I gave all the info I have. But i was also a little surprised that 25-ish mini-fridges would put a building over the edge. FWIW, my ~12 year old minifridge pulls about 50 watts running, seems to pull about 3 amps very briefly at startup (or continuously if stalled, such as if the power goes off just long enough to stop the compressor, but not long enough for the pressure to equalize), going by my Kill-A-Watt. This is a larger one too - not the itty bitty cube one, but the next step up. I think the only big issue you'll run into is if there's an extended power outage or a flicker long enough to stall them; once the power comes back on, all 25 are going to try to kick on at once.
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Dec 17, 2020 19:37
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