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Chillgamesh posted:Yeah the only thing I think is dumb about the Sorrow of Werlyt story is that the horrific superweapons they're sacrificing themselves to create keep getting completely owned by some catgirl with a rapier that goes "kupo" when she dualcasts Jolt but that's imo more of a gameplay conceit than a narrative one. I donno, "shoot it in the face until it dies" seems like a solid strategy that has worked on everything else so far. The hard part is finding the face.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:29
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Jetrauben posted:Yeah, I think any discussion of whether Gaius was a "true believer" in Fascism is pretty thoroughly put paid to at this point. Dude genuinely believed he was doing the right thing and is outraged by what Garlean culture has actually wrought. This is the real stretch imo. Writers really getting a LOT of mileage out of "This was not my intention!" I guess the Garleans only start tooling around with racial supremacy theory in Stormblood though? I didn't play 1.0, but they might have just been regular imperialsts before then. Chillgamesh fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Dec 11, 2020 |
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Dec 11, 2020 21:32
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Chillgamesh posted:Yeah the only thing I think is dumb about the Sorrow of Werlyt story is that the horrific superweapons they're sacrificing themselves to create keep getting completely owned by some catgirl with a rapier that goes "kupo" when she dualcasts Jolt but that's imo more of a gameplay conceit than a narrative one. And not just Alphonse. Remember he literally threatened au ra genocide if he was not obeyed.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:32
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Chillgamesh posted:This is the real stretch imo. Writers really getting a LOT of mileage out of "This was not my intention!" I guess the Garleans only start tooling around with racial supremacy theory in Stormblood though? I didn't play 1.0, but they might have just been regular imperialsts before then Eh, I don't know. I can totally believe that Gaius, a man who's been consistently depicted as elevating people based on merit, administering firmly but with an eye towards long-term assimilation and induction, actively opposing genocidal weapons his fellows would have loved to use, and whose subordinates were genuinely loyal and devoted to him to the point of willingly going AWOL to pursue an independent effort to conquer Eorzea with no logistical support to speak of, would believe the best of his allies and subordinates and not see the on-the-ground petty cruelty of his Garlean officers. I do know that Gaius actually went behind the Empire's back to help you against Nael because he wanted Eorzea conquered, not genocided. But yeah, I got the impression that Zenos encouraged the worst of his own occupation forces because remember, he deliberately ran his provinces badly in hopes of provoking rebellions to entertain him. The distinction is limited, of course, but Gaius doesn't live in a world with a concrete notion of "cultural genocide" like we do; assimilation is still a normal part of empire-building in Hydaelyn. Blockhouse posted:And not just Alphonse. Remember he literally threatened au ra genocide if he was not obeyed. I actually thought he was threatening genocide of all the people of Weyrlyt. Either way, high stakes. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Dec 11, 2020 |
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Dec 11, 2020 21:35
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Again, Gaius's rhetoric isn't fascist. It's a form of pre-democratic social responsibility, while fascism is a post-democratic ideology about deliberately rejecting the material and emotional needs of the citizenry in order to beautify the state through cleansing violence. 'The strong should protect the weak' is the direct antithesis of fascism, which glorifies social Darwinism as a way to improve mankind. He's not a good, ideologically correct guy, but viewing him as a fascist is going to result in you badly misunderstanding his personality and narrative role.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:38
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His rhetoric wasn't fascist, but it was put to Fascist ends. And he's responsible for that. He didn't see it because he was a pureblood living at the top, but he benefited from it all the while. The post trial quests straight up say that Livia, his second in command, was undermining his social ideology every step of the way and he didn't see it
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Dec 11, 2020 21:40
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Kurieg posted:His rhetoric wasn't fascist, but it was put to Fascist ends. And he's responsible for that. He didn't see it because he was a pureblood living at the top, but he benefited from it all the while. Yeah, and this is pretty clearly fueling his guilt. I liked the interpretation someone else said a while back here, when they said Gaius' current arc is showing the good person he was supposed to be if not for his cultural values, and that it's because he has that potential to be a good person that he now has the capacity to redeem himself.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:42
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Kurieg posted:His rhetoric wasn't fascist, but it was put to Fascist ends. And he's responsible for that. He didn't see it because he was a pureblood living at the top, but he benefited from it all the while. Rhitahtyn would have likely turned coat and joined us if we hadn't loving killed him based on that cut scene too 
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Dec 11, 2020 21:44
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Jetrauben posted:Yeah, I think any discussion of whether Gaius was a "true believer" in Fascism is pretty thoroughly put paid to at this point. Dude genuinely believed he was doing the right thing and is outraged by what Garlean culture has actually wrought. Darth Walrus posted:Again, Gaius's rhetoric isn't fascist. It's a form of pre-democratic social responsibility, while fascism is a post-democratic ideology about deliberately rejecting the material and emotional needs of the citizenry in order to beautify the state through cleansing violence. 'The strong should protect the weak' is the direct antithesis of fascism, which glorifies social Darwinism as a way to improve mankind. you think so? I have to disagree. that gaius is upset about the results of his ideology doesn't change his ideology. fascists aren't twirling their 'staches as they intentionally do evil, they think they're doing the right thing, just like most everybody else. his ideals of might-makes-right and benevolent dictatorship by the strongest (by whose definition?) are textbook, regardless of how much he tries to paint it as noblesse oblige and how sad he gets when the logical consequences of his broken ideas occur. moreover, "beautify the state through cleansing violence" fits perfectly! - how else do you think conquering eorzea to make it a peaceful province of garlemald is supposed to occur? his plot isn't over and maybe he'll complete a change of heart after we've finished killing all his children, but as is, the dude is absolutely fascist. that he's outraged is like someone bemoaning jeff bezos et al, but only because it's crony capitalism.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:46
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So just to be clear here on Weapons stuff: so the Weapons were completed sequentially and they *had* to actually use the Oversoul? Because ideally if all the weapons were at least deploy-ready, the kids could have fed some BS to Varro being like “hey the WoL that beat Zenos clean needs to be stopped once and for all. Also we’re taking Ruby, Emerald, Sapphire, and Diamond to stop them. You can’t be too sure!!” and then just immediately defect to Garlond Ironworks and let Cid do his magic on 4 Weapons + G-Warrior or something before Varro has time to construct replacements
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Dec 11, 2020 21:46
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Jetrauben posted:Yeah, and this is pretty clearly fueling his guilt. The problem is that "A strong man must rule" is fascist ideology. His rant in Praetoreum is hella fascist. The idea that because we haven't killed our way into the echelons of power means we're weak is severely at odds with any ideas of benevolence. Even if you have a good and just ruler at the head, it breeds corruption down the line, and the minute there isn't a good and just ruler at the head then things go downhill fast. And Garlemald was purpose built to be a non-functional fascist hellstate by Emet.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:47
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Kurieg posted:The problem is that "A strong man must rule" is fascist ideology. His rant in Praetoreum is hella fascist. The idea that because we haven't killed our way into the echelons of power means we're weak is severely at odds with any ideas of benevolence. Even if you have a good and just ruler at the head, it breeds corruption down the line, and the minute there isn't a good and just ruler at the head then things go downhill fast. Oh sure, it's a broken ideology, although I'm not really sure that Gaius even measures strength simply as martial power so much as Nietzchean Will to Power.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:50
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MechaX posted:So just to be clear here on Weapons stuff: so the Weapons were completed sequentially and they *had* to actually use the Oversoul? Because ideally if all the weapons were at least deploy-ready, the kids could have fed some BS to Varro being like “hey the WoL that beat Zenos clean needs to be stopped once and for all. Also we’re taking Ruby, Emerald, Sapphire, and Diamond to stop them. You can’t be too sure!!” and then just immediately defect to Garlond Ironworks and let Cid do his magic on 4 Weapons + G-Warrior or something before Varro has time to construct replacements We've basically been killing the Weapons the moment they roll off the assembly line. The kids' plan involved perfecting the Weapons and Oversoul but not necessarily getting themselves killed. They didn't account for running into the WoL as their first combat encounter three loving times in a row, so three times they had to Oversoul immediately, and three times they were killed. Also Valens is definitely not dumb enough to let the kids get away with something like letting them all leave together with the Weapons.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:52
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Jetrauben posted:Oh sure, it's a broken ideology, although I'm not really sure that Gaius even measures strength simply as martial power so much as Nietzchean Will to Power. That and he declares that all faith in a higher power is a sign of weakness because all religion is primals in Garlean ideology. That's another classic note of fascist ideology, that your highest allegiance should be to the state.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:52
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Cythereal posted:That and he declares that all faith in a higher power is a sign of weakness because all religion is primals in Garlean ideology. That's another classic note of fascist ideology, that your highest allegiance should be to the state. And it's confirmed in the 4.5 parley that the Garleans basically have a religious devotion to the seat of the Emperor.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:53
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Cythereal posted:That and he declares that all faith in a higher power is a sign of weakness because all religion is primals in Garlean ideology. That's another classic note of fascist ideology, that your highest allegiance should be to the state. Yeah, the fact that he saw the summoning of the 12 to rebind bahamut as a sign of weakness is kind of hilarious because the empire were the ones who unleashed bahamut in the first place.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:55
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Cythereal posted:That and he declares that all faith in a higher power is a sign of weakness because all religion is primals in Garlean ideology. That's another classic note of fascist ideology, that your highest allegiance should be to the state. I mean I still think that the core problem here is that Gaius' ideology, hosed up as it is, lacks either the explicitly genocidal core or endless-warfare ethos of modern fascism. It's a messy ideology but I don't think the parallels are quite 1:1. It feels closer to older forms of autocratic strongmen. And certainly you can argue, say, Napoleon is a proto-fascist, but it doesn't quite feel the same as Nazi or Italian fascist ideology.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:55
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World War Mammories posted:you think so? I have to disagree. that gaius is upset about the results of his ideology doesn't change his ideology. fascists aren't twirling their 'staches as they intentionally do evil, they think they're doing the right thing, just like most everybody else. his ideals of might-makes-right and benevolent dictatorship by the strongest (by whose definition?) are textbook, regardless of how much he tries to paint it as noblesse oblige and how sad he gets when the logical consequences of his broken ideas occur. moreover, "beautify the state through cleansing violence" fits perfectly! - how else do you think conquering eorzea to make it a peaceful province of garlemald is supposed to occur? his plot isn't over and maybe he'll complete a change of heart after we've finished killing all his children, but as is, the dude is absolutely fascist. that he's outraged is like someone bemoaning jeff bezos et al, but only because it's crony capitalism. You're misunderstanding. Fascist violence doesn't exist in pursuit of some utopian goal. The violence is the goal. Mussolini and Hitler were quite clear in their writings and speeches about their ideology being anti-utopian, rejecting any end-state of peace and comfort for the nation-state. People tend to think of fascism as simply being another violent ideology, prepared to reach its noble-sounding goals through force, but it was and is far more explicitly, openly deranged and selfish than that - it's an ideology of violence. It's one of the reasons why 'the cruelty is the point' became one of the iconic summaries of the modern fascist resurgence - fascists really are in it to hurt the Other, and the welfare of the in-group is a secondary concern. You are, again, confusing old-school imperialism for fascism.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:56
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Darth Walrus posted:You're misunderstanding. Fascist violence doesn't exist in pursuit of some utopian goal. The violence is the goal. Mussolini and Hitler were quite clear in their writings and speeches about their ideology being anti-utopian, rejecting any end-state of peace and comfort for the nation-state. People tend to think of fascism as simply being another violent ideology, prepared to reach its noble-sounding goals through force, but it was and is far more explicitly, openly deranged and selfish than that - it's an ideology of violence. It's one of the reasons why 'the cruelty is the point' became one of the iconic summaries of the modern fascist resurgence - fascists really are in it to hurt the Other, and the welfare of the in-group is a secondary concern. You are, again, confusing old-school imperialism for fascism. Although, to be fair, fascist parties often saved that particular rhetoric for the ingroup, and made buccolic pastoral pitches of prosperity and comfort to the broader population. A lot of Nazi propaganda - when they weren't engaged in demonization of Jews and others they saw as "parasites" - isn't the deaths-heads and other assorted monstrosities we associate with them, but rather these idyllic kitschy scenes of popular wholesomeness, cleansing corruption from society and better living conditions for their idealized True Citizenry. It's just less immediately identifiable, and of course their entire system relied upon pillage, murder, and crimes against humanity. Gaius rather clearly wanted to administer his conquered territories well, and bring prosperity to the people within them. Even Gabranth's legion apparently improved conditions for the poor in Bozja under his reign. There's a lot of Garlean true believers in Garlean's Burden who seem to think they're genuinely improving the world, alongside the cackling sadists like Varro. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Dec 11, 2020 |
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Dec 11, 2020 22:00
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Jetrauben posted:Yeah, and this is pretty clearly fueling his guilt. Gaius basically holds the viewpoint of "Those who have strength are obligated to use it to protect those who don't" but growing up Garlean twisted that to "Those who have strength should rule over those who don't." Even back in his High School Atheist Pratoreium Days he was pretty genuinely speaking about his desire to bring about peace but was twisted by his rhetoric into thinking peace meant "ruling with unquestioned strength so I can do good" and thinking that Eorzea depended entirely on false strength that would destroy the world. (Recall at the time the Garleans were basically tricked into thinking The Burn was caused *entirely* by a primal.) He was raised to believe the world should be under one rule for the betterment of all... but post-Shadowbringers it's very clear that is a corrupted mindset specifically pushed by the Ascians because that was their end goal. Just not the way the Garleans saw. This absolutely does not make him a good person or even arguably a sympathetic one but it's the viewpoint of someone who views themselves as a hero from a different perspective, which is 100% in line with Shadowbringer's main themes. Once he lost he was forced to confront that his heroic delusion was not reality and he's been dealing with the consequences of that ever since. Every plot he's been involved in has boiled down to "This is actually why The Strong Should Rule The Weak Is A Bad Idea." Black Rose is a horrific chemical weapon that kills people regardless of their strength, a weapon of pure murder that is none the less incredibly effective. Zenos is arguably the strongest person in the world and took the throne via murder while also showing that being strong does not make you remotely a good leader or morally justified. His children who he clearly thought he was doing right by actually took completely different things from his mindset that puts them directly in opposition to Garleans as a whole and they are sacrificing themselves to live up to the ideal he would have had if he wasn't so twisted. It's arguably if he could ever actually redeem himself for the immense damage he caused, but Shadowbringers comes pretty firmly on the side that it is better to try than not and facing up to your old sins and trying to attone for them is necessary. (See also: The entire Limsa plot.)
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Dec 11, 2020 22:01
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The emerald weapon mount is so bloody adorable on lala's you'd be afraid they might stab you in the back of the leg since they're so small.
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Dec 11, 2020 22:02
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Chillgamesh posted:We've basically been killing the Weapons the moment they roll off the assembly line. The kids' plan involved perfecting the Weapons and Oversoul but not necessarily getting themselves killed. They didn't account for running into the WoL as their first combat encounter three loving times in a row, so three times they had to Oversoul immediately, and three times they were killed. Also Valens is definitely not dumb enough to let the kids get away with something like letting them all leave together with the Weapons. Yeah, the Weapons can function perfectly normally as standard mecha, and Ruby easily takes down a few primals on its way to Ghimlyt without having to go oversoul, its just that the warrior of light is basically the Ultimate Killing Machine and none of the kids have made the connection of who exactly it is gaius has been sending out to wreck their poo poo. Babysitter Super Sleuth fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Dec 11, 2020 |
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Dec 11, 2020 22:03
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Kurieg posted:Yeah, the fact that he saw the summoning of the 12 to rebind bahamut as a sign of weakness is kind of hilarious because the empire were the ones who unleashed bahamut in the first place. To be fair, if Cid's dad was tempered, who knows how many people working on that project were too. Bahamut had spies working on the inside before he was even freed from the moon!
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Dec 11, 2020 22:04
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ImpAtom posted:(See also: The entire Limsa plot.) Yeah this is how I'm contextualizing the difference between Gaius and Varis shorthand. If you accept that Varis was full of poo poo when he implied Limsa was just as bad as the Empire for what it was doing to the Kobolds and Sahagin (as comdemnable as it is, obviously), you accept that there is space between what Gaius is and what Varis is.
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Dec 11, 2020 22:05
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Darth Walrus posted:You're misunderstanding. Fascist violence doesn't exist in pursuit of some utopian goal. The violence is the goal. Mussolini and Hitler were quite clear in their writings and speeches about their ideology being anti-utopian, rejecting any end-state of peace and comfort for the nation-state. People tend to think of fascism as simply being another violent ideology, prepared to reach its noble-sounding goals through force, but it was and is far more explicitly, openly deranged and selfish than that - it's an ideology of violence. It's one of the reasons why 'the cruelty is the point' became one of the iconic summaries of the modern fascist resurgence - fascists really are in it to hurt the Other, and the welfare of the in-group is a secondary concern. You are, again, confusing old-school imperialism for fascism. I really think that focusing on the claimed goal is missing the point. "the purpose of a system is what it does" and so on. gaius believes that it is the responsibility of the objectively superior garleans to pacify the world through violence to make it better. and to me this post reads like "well, he didn't mean for it to go so wrong, even though it inevitably does" - isn't the logical implication of this idea that no one can be a fascist unless they say "all I want to do is just kill folks"? and the point I've been beaten to, that fascist propaganda absolutely paints an imminent idyllic society (I don't feel like finding any but I think we can take this as given), is also important.
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Dec 11, 2020 22:06
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Chillgamesh posted:We've basically been killing the Weapons the moment they roll off the assembly line. The kids' plan involved perfecting the Weapons and Oversoul but not necessarily getting themselves killed. They didn't account for running into the WoL as their first combat encounter three loving times in a row, so three times they had to Oversoul immediately, and three times they were killed. Also Valens is definitely not dumb enough to let the kids get away with something like letting them all leave together with the Weapons. The passage of time between patches is a bit murky but I figured this would be the case. Now would Varro let them leave with all the Weapons... probably not under most normal circumstances, and he’d probably let them go ahead and die in combat even without backup if it meant preserving the other weapons (with that said, given that every weapon so far fell into Ironworks hands, I don’t know how much progress, if any, the Empire really got from the three so far). Maybe if the WoL and Eorzean Alliance was knocking on their door, but that’s something the kids couldn’t count on. With all that said, dumber defections and Gundamjacks have happened in mecha fiction before
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Dec 11, 2020 22:08
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Jetrauben posted:Although, to be fair, fascist parties often saved that particular rhetoric for the ingroup, and made buccolic pastoral pitches of prosperity and comfort to the broader population. A lot of Nazi propaganda isn't the deaths-heads and other assorted monstrosities we associate with them, but rather these idyllic kitschy scenes of popular wholesomeness, cleansing corruption from society and better living conditions for their idealized True Citizenry. While that's somewhat true, even outward-facing fascist propaganda was notorious at the time for its unusual fondness for destruction (either of the self or of the Other) over a restoration of a peaceful status quo. Look at the literature of the era, and you'll see a lot of exasperated film critics grumbling about how the latest Nazi film ends with yet another martyrdom and rallying cry for others to continue the doomed heroes' struggle.
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Dec 11, 2020 22:09
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MechaX posted:With all that said, dumber defections and Gundamjacks have happened in mecha fiction before *Gundam SEED intensifies*
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Dec 11, 2020 22:09
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World War Mammories posted:I really think that focusing on the claimed goal is missing the point. "the purpose of a system is what it does" and so on. gaius believes that it is the responsibility of the objectively superior garleans to pacify the world through violence to make it better. and to me this post reads like "well, he didn't mean for it to go so wrong, even though it inevitably does" - isn't the logical implication of this idea that no one can be a fascist unless they say "all I want to do is just kill folks"? and the point I've been beaten to, that fascist propaganda absolutely paints an imminent idyllic society (I don't feel like finding any but I think we can take this as given), is also important. The thing is that Gaius is specifically not the guy who thinks the Garleans are Objectively Superior. He is called out particularly as being someone who promotes and supports people due to their abilities and merit, not their lineage. This is why he has the fierce and undying loyalty of people because he is someone who treated them as having worth despite not being pureblood. This isn't even a retcon, this is how he was presented as far back as the character existed. He just also is a believer in the Strong Good Man Doing Hard Things For The Betterment Of The World mindset which is super loving harmful but also depressingly commonplace. He isn't pro-violence necessarily. He opposed the Meteor Project entirely. He wanted to take Eorzea over because he genuinely thought it was for their own good because Eorzea it is worth remembering is basically Ground Zero for primal summoning and the Garleans view primal summoning as something akin to using a nuclear bomb and so he felt in his High School Atheist way that it was the only justifiable method. His entire lengthy-rear end Pratorium speech amounts to "You guys keep using nuclear bombs!! Those are lovely!" Even the Ultima Weapon was specifically an anti-Primal weapon. (And in theory while it was active Ifrit, Garuda and Titan would no longer be able to be summoned.) The Garlean empire was specifically set up to view Eikon-summoning as an unforgivable horrific thing and Gaius bought into that wholeheartedly. Again, this doesn't make him a good person, sympathetic, or forgivable. He did horrific things and was nowhere near as good a leader as he thought he was. He was shortsighted, arrogant, and frankly an rear end in a top hat and also hopelessly naïve for a guy who thought he was clearly smarter than everyone else. But he's been dealing with the consequences of that ever since and literally nothing in the story has done anything to prove any of his viewpoints correct instead of ramming it into his head over and over that everything he believed was wrong or misguided.
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Dec 11, 2020 22:22
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Chillgamesh posted:And it's confirmed in the 4.5 parley that the Garleans basically have a religious devotion to the seat of the Emperor.
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Dec 11, 2020 22:25
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Darth Walrus posted:While that's somewhat true, even outward-facing fascist propaganda was notorious at the time for its unusual fondness for destruction (either of the self or of the Other) over a restoration of a peaceful status quo. Look at the literature of the era, and you'll see a lot of exasperated film critics grumbling about how the latest Nazi film ends with yet another martyrdom and rallying cry for others to continue the doomed heroes' struggle. again I must disagree - “Utopia is on the horizon. I move two steps closer; it moves two steps further away. I walk another ten steps and the horizon runs ten steps further away. As much as I may walk, I'll never reach it. So what's the point of utopia? The point is this: to keep walking.” - "a literary giant of the Latin American left" framing things as an unending process that will never reach a peaceful end state - even, dare I say, a struggle - is not specific to fascism. so conversely, that someone like gaius envisions eventually reaching that pacified state doesn't necessarily make them not a fascist, right? if someone joined the NSDAP because they believed it would bring about great improvements in their lives, were they not fascist? was gregor strasser not a fascist because he envisioned a specific, achievable better future when he said "[w]e want in place of an exploitative capitalist economic system a real socialism"? (of course, the very next part of that sentence blames that exploitative system on the machinations of jews, so) ImpAtom posted:The thing is that Gaius is specifically not the guy who thinks the Garleans are Objectively Superior. He is called out particularly as being someone who promotes and supports people due to their abilities and merit, not their lineage. This is why he has the fierce and undying loyalty of people because he is someone who treated them as having worth despite not being pureblood. This isn't even a retcon, this is how he was presented as far back as the character existed. He just also is a believer in the Strong Good Man Doing Hard Things For The Betterment Of The World mindset which is super loving harmful but also depressingly commonplace. I sincerely believe that someone can believe there are plenty of "good ones" among the untermenschen and still be a fascist who talks about blighted foreigners who should be subjugated by the state, like gaius does. (I briefly searched for some collection of gaius dialogue so I could correctly mimic his phrasing - does he use "savages"? - but didn't find much.) that the story is correctly dunking on him for being a huge piece of poo poo who deserves to rot in a cell for the rest of his natural life doesn't affect whether he's a fascist, and whether his kids are too for echoing his thoughts regardless of their lofty ideals, which is the claim I'm having this meltdown about
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Dec 11, 2020 22:35
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World War Mammories posted:I sincerely believe that someone can believe there are plenty of "good ones" among the untermenschen and still be a fascist who talks about blighted foreigners who should be subjugated by the state, like gaius does. (I briefly searched for some collection of gaius dialogue so I could correctly mimic his phrasing - does he use "savages"? - but didn't find much.) that the story is correctly dunking on him for being a huge piece of poo poo who deserves to rot in a cell for the rest of his natural life doesn't affect whether he's a fascist, and whether his kids are too for echoing his thoughts regardless of their lofty ideals, which is the claim I'm having this meltdown about I think the thing is that his kids have internalized the "The strong have a duty to protect the weak" line but not the "The strong have a duty to rule the weak" line because Valens is basically a blinking neon sign that shows how that ideology works in practice. Alfonse's plan isn't to kill valens and replace him like a dyed in the wool fascist would, it's to kill Valens and then go on to Liberate Werlyt, he says as much in this patch.
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Dec 11, 2020 22:47
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If fascism is defined as "wanting to conquer territory and thinking your country is better than other countries" that makes a whole lot of stuff fascist, even before the invention of fascism. Like, was the British Empire fascist? Was Imperial China? Most pre-modern societies?
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Dec 11, 2020 23:07
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I think the distinction is that the kids have never displayed an intent or desire to use violence to conquer and destroy (though their intentionally limited presentation in the first few quests made it seem like they were fanatically devoted to the empire unto death). They just want power to free themselves and their people from oppression. Part of why their plan is dumb is that, if Catgirl With Sword wasn't immediately on the case, they actually would have been helping the empire oppress people despite their ulterior motives. This is Bad. Considering their only other option was to lay down and literally die along with their entire nation, I feel there's room to consider mitigating circumstances when judging them. Gaius may have genuinely believed violence in the service of Garlean Man's Burden could make the world a better place for everyone, but he had a choice to do something else, and decades of time in which to make that choice. So no matter what he's a giant piece of poo poo even if he realizes it, feels bad about it, and is trying to make amends. It's good that he is trying at least but he does not have those mitigating circumstances the kids have.
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Dec 11, 2020 23:14
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Hogama posted:You know, with the towers involved in apparently "tempering" people to the Glory of Garlemald, if ever there were a way to do a Final Fantasy II callback and have an Emperor "come back from Hell"... I think it's actually going to be (5.4 spoilers) a way to make Zenos even stronger for his hunt; and the WoL as well. He's still Shinryu, fanatical Garlean devotion will make him directly more powerful. A bunch of people awakening to the echo when Zenos and Fandaniel inevitably cause another starshower and fighting for Hydaelyn will make her, and by extension the WoL, more powerful as well, which Zenos also wants because he's Zenos.
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Dec 11, 2020 23:14
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I think the biggest problem with that theory is that (to just spoiler everything up to 5.4) This essentially is creating a situation where no matter what, Zenos and Fandaniel have won and get their stated goals. Now I do not think that it is impossible for the bad guy to 'get what they want' in an emotional sense or in the sense that the conflict which drove them is resolved, nor is that bad, but there has to be some iteration or variation if it isn't just going to be "in the next expansion, you do exactly what the bad guy wants and fulfill his stated, explicit goal." You are probably thinking of Emet-Selch. Emet-Selch's stated goal was to continue with the ardor and at most figure out how to work around you or perhaps persuade you to see that he is right. In the end you blow Emet-Selch the hell up, and he dies other than a shadowy cameo. Emet-Selch does not achieve his stated goal. I have enough confidence in the writing team that they have a plan here and it will not just be 'you literally run around while being explicitly told 'how wonderful, you're doing everything I want you to do!' by the bad guy, and you will kill Fanny in the 85 trial, Lunar Bahamut in the 89 trial, and Super Garlean God Super Garlean Zenos in the capstone trial at 90.'
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Dec 11, 2020 23:31
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ImpAtom posted:This absolutely does not make him a good person or even arguably a sympathetic one but it's the viewpoint of someone who views themselves as a hero from a different perspective, which is 100% in line with Shadowbringer's main themes. Once he lost he was forced to confront that his heroic delusion was not reality and he's been dealing with the consequences of that ever since. Every plot he's been involved in has boiled down to "This is actually why The Strong Should Rule The Weak Is A Bad Idea." Not just losing, but the way he lost. "I stuck a nuke in your giant mech and the entire reason I was helping was to make a nuke transport device, cackle cackle you're an idiot" stings a bit harder than just WoL proving they're stronger than you. (I don't think I'm disagreeing, just wanted to stress that.)
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Dec 11, 2020 23:37
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I really hope in 6.0 or even 5.5: that after all the hype it turns out Zenos wasn't out leveling up or whatever and we just absolutely stomp him from our running around on the first fighting super tough things and just getting better.
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Dec 11, 2020 23:41
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"Alright, let's fight! Wait, what's that 80 next to your name? Science hasn't invented numbers higher than 70."
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Dec 11, 2020 23:43
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 11:12 |
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This is the Godbert thing all over again. Godbert's stance regarding Ala Mhigo cannot be disproven with the rhetoric we use to counter Ronald Reagan's welfare queen myth, despite how similar they sound, because both the place Reagan is coming from and the place we come from in disagreeing with him are informed by things like a globalized economy, the existence of statistics as a field, and certain sets of historical precedent that Eorzea doesn't have--and the writers are very conscious of what Eorzea does and doesn't have. Any resemblance Garlemald has to a 20th century nation-state was put into place by Emet for his own purposes, and he never cared about the actual Garlean citizens misinterpreting some of the finer points and details as to how he may have understood such a society to function. He might have known what fascism is based on previous advanced societies, but anyone living in the very strongly Early Modern 7th astral era won't get the finer details
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Dec 11, 2020 23:58
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