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Lol https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1337689315003015168?s=19
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Dec 12, 2020 13:07
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feedmegin posted:Yeah. Bear in mind lots of historians are American so obviously losing America MUST have been the worst thing ever to happen to Britain. If you point out how many bits of the world we've lost, 'to us, it was Tuesday' etc they can get a bit miffed. Nah, allowing America to become independent when it did, how it did, as a country obsessed with pissweak government and being terrified of taxes and obsessed with guns, was bad. That said, hard to beat Thatcher.
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Dec 12, 2020 13:11
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I was going to say that there's a difference between being deliberately and ideologically bad and just loving up repeatedly, but changing the definition of British citizenship because you're scared of British Hongkongese settling in the UK and having it land on the desk of Galtieri that Britain doesn't care about the islands anymore was a massive unforced error and one that she doesn't get enough blame for.
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Dec 12, 2020 13:18
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dont know if its a shortage exactly. does it make sense to draft new people in before the arrangements are known? and as there are loads of people looking for work who wouldn't normally consider the civil service, this could be a great way to add much needed diversity
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Dec 12, 2020 13:25
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Guavanaut posted:I was going to say that there's a difference between being deliberately and ideologically bad and just loving up repeatedly, but changing the definition of British citizenship because you're scared of British Hongkongese settling in the UK and having it land on the desk of Galtieri that Britain doesn't care about the islands anymore was a massive unforced error and one that she doesn't get enough blame for. are there any figures on the numbers of hongkongese emigrating to britain since we opened the borders last year?
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Dec 12, 2020 13:27
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Breath Ray posted:are there any figures on the numbers of hongkongese emigrating to britain since we opened the borders last year? 600k or 10 COVIDs https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/12/uk-government-underestimates-takeup-hong-kong-resettlement E: hello 
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Dec 12, 2020 13:30
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“Opened the borders” is over selling it. They’ve still no automatic right to remain & it’s not available for everyone. Figures for actual take up not yet. Government originally estimated 500k across 3 years, but there was this in the news today suggesting that lowballed it. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/12/uk-government-underestimates-takeup-hong-kong-resettlement
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Dec 12, 2020 13:32
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knox_harrington posted:600k or 10 COVIDs woah! thanks for the prompt response. quite impressive figure really
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Dec 12, 2020 13:33
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forkboy84 posted:Nah, allowing America to become independent when it did, how it did, as a country obsessed with pissweak government and being terrified of taxes and obsessed with guns, was bad. Bad for them maybe. Not obviously bad for us.
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Dec 12, 2020 13:42
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It's mostly richer middle class professionals taking the jump, so I'd guess the Tories will make it easy for them. Not that it's a bad thing reguardless.
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Dec 12, 2020 13:43
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I wonder what the cowboy times would have been like if america had sensibly remained british. Perhaps there are some alternative history novels exploring these ideas.
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Dec 12, 2020 13:52
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Something would have had to have broken in the 1830s over slavery, plus there's no way that France sells Louisiana to a British North America, so is there even somewhere for cowboys to cow?
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Dec 12, 2020 13:54
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Jose posted:https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1337439534821339136?s=20 "my Brussels group" Kind of confused what link Alex Andreou is claiming to now have in to private heads of state meetings? A guy who up until Brexit was trying to be an actor and has talked up every "Putin controls Trump and Johnson" conspiracy since then. The points he's making seem reasonable enough, but feels like he's trying to dress up the same political gossip/speculation garbage that is choking any real UK political journalism.
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Dec 12, 2020 13:56
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feedmegin posted:Bad for them maybe. Not obviously bad for us. Bad for the entire world imo. Guavanaut posted:I was going to say that there's a difference between being deliberately and ideologically bad and just loving up repeatedly, but changing the definition of British citizenship because you're scared of British Hongkongese settling in the UK and having it land on the desk of Galtieri that Britain doesn't care about the islands anymore was a massive unforced error and one that she doesn't get enough blame for. If you were a cynic you could argue it worked out marvellously for her because she might have lost in 83 otherwise
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Dec 12, 2020 14:12
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bustin keaton posted:"my Brussels group" There also seem to be lots of people who sneer at UK 'journalists' who just repeat what they're leaked by UK politicians, but who nod sagely when European 'journalists' do exactly the same with info they get from EU bureaucrats. Don't get me wrong, I look at reports of Boris barging into a room, insulting everyone inside, farting and then seeming surprised that they're not all laughing with him, and think 'Yeah, sounds legit', but there's an interesting sort of hypocrisy at work there.
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Dec 12, 2020 14:21
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Guavanaut posted:Something would have had to have broken in the 1830s over slavery, plus there's no way that France sells Louisiana to a British North America, so is there even somewhere for cowboys to cow? hmm but in a world were the rest of north america was still British and fully at war with France I could have just been taken, if even the french revolution even happens in a world with no USA is inspire people and no war of Independence to stress french finances further past the breaking point.
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Dec 12, 2020 14:27
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Guavanaut posted:Something would have had to have broken in the 1830s over slavery, plus there's no way that France sells Louisiana to a British North America, so is there even somewhere for cowboys to cow? A *big* part of the reason why the British establishment suddenly became passionately anti-slavery was to gently caress over America in favour of India, which didn't have slavery at all definitely not no sir those labourers were perfectly free to starve to death as long as they did it off our lands which definitely weren't their lands until last week. Obviously the actual dynamics in play were a lot more complex than that, but the suppression and then rebirth of the Indian cotton trade lines up very nicely with the British establishment attitude to slave labour, and also was a big factor in the US Civil War because the South weren't really paying attention and assumed the European powers would be queueing up to give them money and guns so they could keep access to the South's cotton, completely ignoring the exponential growth of Indian cotton exports from 1776 (weirdly) and that the French were already starting to do the same thing with Egypt, and also that the South only had a cotton industry because most of the arable land was too poo poo to grow anything else. Hmm, a bunch of racists leaving a Union in a strop and believing the world would be falling over themselves to buy their poo poo despite it being available from just about anywhere else without having to deal with said bunch of racists? Sounds oddly familiar.
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Dec 12, 2020 14:33
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I'm still constantly surprised that the period of cowboys as we know them was only 30 years - 1865 to 1895. From the amount of media/popular culture etc I'd have assumed it was so much longer.
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Dec 12, 2020 14:36
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goddamnedtwisto posted:A *big* part of the reason why the British establishment suddenly became passionately anti-slavery was to gently caress over America in favour of India, which didn't have slavery at all definitely not no sir those labourers were perfectly free to starve to death as long as they did it off our lands which definitely weren't their lands until last week. That ties closer with the actual abolition dates in the West Indies, which then (along with Haiti and the Bolivarian revolutions) scared the poo poo out of the US South. Tacky's Rebellion should probably get a fair mention too, but neither get taught in British school history because they go against the notion that Britain very progressively ended slavery, which had been started by...
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Dec 12, 2020 14:45
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Guavanaut posted:Something would have had to have broken in the 1830s over slavery, plus there's no way that France sells Louisiana to a British North America, so is there even somewhere for cowboys to cow? ...how many cattle ranches do you think there are in Louisiana?
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Dec 12, 2020 14:51
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https://twitter.com/StefGotBooted/status/1337754106086252546?s=19
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Dec 12, 2020 14:57
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feedmegin posted:...how many cattle ranches do you think there are in Louisiana? In the whole Louisiana territory? A ton. In the state which is now called Louisiana not many. And without the Louisiana purchase the Americans most likely wouldn't have gone to war with mexico so the far west wouldn't exist either.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:07
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Little reminder that we've had three or four River-class patrol vessels in the Channel since 2003. They were actually a cost-cutting replacement for the seven (slightly smaller) Island-class ships we previously used for the purpose. This isn't actually an escalation, just showing off what meagre forces we already have, and the government are relying on the public and the media's incuriosity and amnesia to make their sabre-rattling seem impressive.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:09
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Red Oktober posted:I'm still constantly surprised that the period of cowboys as we know them was only 30 years - 1865 to 1895. From the amount of media/popular culture etc I'd have assumed it was so much longer. It's even weirder when you realise that the "wild west" was actually mostly on the prairies, much closer to the Great Lakes and the Mississippi than the desert that Hollywood puts it in. Wild Bill Hickock died in South Dakota, Jesse James in Missouri, and the Dodge that people had to get the hell out of is in Kansas. It's not *that* surprising when you think of it, because there's not much margin in raising cattle on cactus, but you can't even have the normal Hollywood thing of "All alien planets look like the Vasquez Rocks because it's just inside the thirty-mile limit" - the San Fernando Valley does actually look a lot like the prairies (apart from the mountains in the background), but for some reason almost every single western is filmed in the Mojave. Maybe it just looks cooler. About the only famous "western" thing that actually happened in the "west" was the Gunfight at the OK Corral - which, interestingly, shows the mythmaking already going on, in that the bad guys were a gang called the Cowboys who didn't do much actual cattle raising. This is also *always* shown as being in the middle of the desert rather than the considerably more photogenic Basin and Range territory.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:09
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feedmegin posted:...how many cattle ranches do you think there are in Louisiana?
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Dec 12, 2020 15:09
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feedmegin posted:...how many cattle ranches do you think there are in Louisiana? in the states which were fully carved out of the Louisiana purchase there are 22.665 million cattle (since we didn't get a number fact for this page at the top) (human population of those states 24.496 million) Rumda fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 15:12
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Maybe it just looks cooler. As you said, the O.K. Corral gunfight in Tombstone, Arizona was about the only cowboy stuff to happen there, but they played it up massively with stuff like Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show (from Nebraska) being publicized by Arizona John Burke (from New York).
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Dec 12, 2020 15:16
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Guavanaut posted:The core 'cowboy era' (as opposed to 'wild west') stuff happened in East Montana, South Dakota, Wyoming, Nebraska, and Kansas, which were all part of the purchase. But, crucially, not under French control and nor was France in a position to exert that control, Actual French territory was basically New Orleans which is what Jefferson was after. America would have kept expanding west and told France to swivel by the time they were actually ready to settle that land. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 15:20
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TACD posted:I really want this to be Howdens just because it would fit so well with the stories I’ve heard about them Nah wasn’t them, this company was very small by ultimately very profitable. Didn’t stop them shedding a ton of staff including me when the brexit effect hit the fan and the construction industry in London ground to a halt.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:20
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feedmegin posted:But, crucially, not under French control and nor was France in a position to exert that control, Actual French territory was basically New Orleans which is what Jeffery was after. America would have kept expanding west and told France to swivel by the time they were actually ready to settle that land. now you're moving the goal posts that land was still part of the purchase
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Dec 12, 2020 15:22
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Guavanaut posted:I think it's because Arizona and New Mexico were the last two contiguous states to join the Union and made a hell of a lot of their branding about the 'wild west frontier cowboy' archetype. I suppose it helps/hurts that the post-Civil War westward expansion, the various atrocities against the Indians, and particularly the California gold rush, all also had that same lawless connotation (and lots of horses) so the "frontier" period of drinking, gambling and shooting does actually cover a hundred years or more and we can't expect Hollywood to have any more respect for American history than they do for the history of any other country.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:24
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Rumda posted:now you're moving the goal posts that land was still part of the purchase The context was 'Something would have had to have broken in the 1830s over slavery, plus there's no way that France sells Louisiana to a British North America, so is there even somewhere for cowboys to cow?' Yes. You don't stop manifest destiny that easily.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:24
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feedmegin posted:But, crucially, not under French control and nor was France in a position to exert that control, Actual French territory was basically New Orleans which is what Jeffery was after. America would have kept expanding west and told France to swivel by the time they were actually ready to settle that land.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:24
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feedmegin posted:The context was 'Something would have had to have broken in the 1830s over slavery, plus there's no way that France sells Louisiana to a British North America, so is there even somewhere for cowboys to cow?' the Louisiana purchase was what really sparked manifest destiny
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Dec 12, 2020 15:26
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Guavanaut posted:Would it have kept pushing west though? Independence not succeeding means that the Proclamation of 1763 is still in effect, which sets a western limit. There'd be grumbling about that at the various governors' mansions, but it still leaves Louisiana (both the state and the wider area) in nominal French and Native American hands. One of the causes of the war of independence was precisely the Americans insisting on pushing westward against the wishes of HMG (note poster above me, long before the Purchase). One way we might avoid the war is HMG saying 'fine go on then' from the get go and anyway we just have to look at Africa to see randos conquering various areas for the British Empire and presenting it as a fait accompli. Im not sure why the Victorian British Empire of all people would object to the same in the West particularly once we have the Maxim gun and they do not.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:29
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Guavanaut posted:Would it have kept pushing west though? Independence not succeeding means that the Proclamation of 1763 is still in effect, which sets a western limit. There'd be grumbling about that at the various governors' mansions, but it still leaves Louisiana (both the state and the wider area) in nominal French and Native American hands. or nominal Spanish control if Napoleon doesn't take it back
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Dec 12, 2020 15:29
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I think I'm perhaps not alone in assuming the Louisiana purchase was for like Louisiana. They buried the lede there.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:32
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NotJustANumber99 posted:I think I'm perhaps not alone in assuming the Louisiana purchase was for like Louisiana. They buried the lede there. Louisiana as a term only for the west bank of the lower Mississippi and delta only came about after the purchase when it became a state
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Dec 12, 2020 15:34
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feedmegin posted:One of the causes of the war of independence was precisely the Americans insisting on pushing westward against the wishes of HMG (note poster above me, long before the Purchase). One way we might avoid the war is HMG saying 'fine go on then' from the get go and anyway we just have to look at Africa to see randos conquering various areas for the British Empire and presenting it as a fait accompli. Im not sure why the Victorian British Empire of all people would object to the same in the West particularly once we have the Maxim gun and they do not.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:36
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feedmegin posted:The context was 'Something would have had to have broken in the 1830s over slavery, plus there's no way that France sells Louisiana to a British North America, so is there even somewhere for cowboys to cow?' A hostile French-controlled New Orleans *could* have stopped it fairly easily. Without control of the Mississippi and access to the Gulf of Mexico (or the Saint Lawrence) there's literally no point in anything other than subsistence farming between the Appalachians and the Rockies, and that's not got the kind of margins that make people rush westward. The gold rushes that really fueled the great migration west don't happen unless you've already got a load of farmers and cowboys trying to make their fortune, and like I say there's no fortune to be made in agriculture unless you've got easy access to sell your stuff. Of course the Americans could likewise have stopped the French exploiting that land fairly easily too so no, no cowboys as we know them until locomotives get good enough to cross the mountains and the land becomes valuable enough to be worth fighting over. However I do now want to see a French cowboy movie with Clint Eastwood and Lee Van Cleef in a 30 minute dialogue about the bleakness of existence and the ennui of the cactus before the big shootout.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:43
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