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that's also supposing there isn't a shift in French (or Spanish if we assume it stays in Spanish hands post 7 years war and no napoleon) colonial policy and the interior becomes more settled. e/ nothing good happens in years ending in 66
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Dec 12, 2020 15:44
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Rumda posted:e/ nothing good happens in years ending in 66 Someone's looking to get their citizenship revoked.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:46
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Guavanaut posted:The Victorian Africa comparison is interesting, because suppose Arizona Cecil Rhodes does just decide to wander west across the Mississippi and it is still nominally French, what then? Do you end up with Fashoda syndrome, Americas Edition? France has no presence there and no interest in establishing one - think of the logistics. Thats why they sold those claims off for a few extra mil thrown in with New Orleans, without the Americans even asking for it even, irl. Probably we just get another quiet diplomatic deal with some compensation for France a little later instead. Edit: also, if British America is a thing and the Napoleonic Wars still happen then New Orleans is obviously not going to remain French for very long. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 15:46
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feedmegin posted:France has no presence there and no interest in establishing one - think of the logistics. Thats why they sold those claims off for a few extra mil thrown in with New Orleans, without the Americans even asking for it even, irl. Probably we just get another quiet diplomatic deal with some compensation for France a little later instead. no it was sold because Napoleon completely botched his trans Atlantic stratagy
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Dec 12, 2020 15:50
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Rumda posted:no it was sold because Napoleon completely botched his trans Atlantic stratagy If you mean 'restarted war with Britain' sure. Kind of need sea control to do that stuff.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:54
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Just chiming in to say that the Coen brothers' The Ballad of Buster Scruggs is an excellent set of six short Western films, each quite different from the others. Their True Grit is excellent as well and is very much not set in the desert.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:55
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feedmegin posted:France has no presence there and no interest in establishing one - think of the logistics. Thats why they sold those claims off for a few extra mil thrown in with New Orleans, without the Americans even asking for it even, irl. Probably we just get another quiet diplomatic deal with some compensation for France a little later instead. Assuming that Spain has handed it back to France and the 13 colonies are still British, Britain allows settlement as far west as Ohio to ease some tensions, and France views this as a potential encroachment of spheres of influence, do they sell or do they throw more effort into river forts and building influence, as in later West Africa? Considering the amount of things changed hands for no other reason than "we can't manage it, but it's of vital importance that the Brits don't have it" I'm not sure it's as simple as Britain merrily marching across the Mississip.
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Dec 12, 2020 15:56
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feedmegin posted:If you mean 'restarted war with Britain' sure. Kind of need sea control to do that stuff. No I mean getting insecure that Toussaint Louverture was doing him but more attractive in Haiti
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Dec 12, 2020 15:57
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feedmegin posted:France has no presence there and no interest in establishing one - think of the logistics. Thats why they sold those claims off for a few extra mil thrown in with New Orleans, without the Americans even asking for it even, irl. Probably we just get another quiet diplomatic deal with some compensation for France a little later instead. I'd say a world where the British still controlled the 13 colonies is *definitely* a world where the French have an active interest in denying them westward expansion. They probably couldn't have properly colonised the American interior and it would probably have gone the same way as the Seven Years War, but we come back round to the original point that there's no way they'd sell their claimed territory to the British so the explosive expansion past the Appalachians wouldn't have happened until much later. (As we're really deep into alt-history now - about the only way Britain could have kept the American colonies would have been revocation of the Navigation Acts and the various other protectionist/mercantilist policies. I've no idea what effect this would have had on western expansion but I suspect that a richer, secondary-industry-based economy where the path to riches isn't so closely tied to land ownership doesn't have anything like the same amount of people willing to sell up and go dirt farming in Wyoming)
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Dec 12, 2020 16:02
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yawn, never mind about the british cowboys this is all boring politics and history. I just wanted funny fancy cowboy outfits and off road penny farthings or something.
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Dec 12, 2020 16:24
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Ah, you want the 1999 Will Smith documentary Wild Wild West then.
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Dec 12, 2020 16:25
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u brexit ukip it posted:Just chiming in to say that the Coen brothers' The Ballad of Buster Scruggs is an excellent set of six short Western films, each quite different from the others. Their True Grit is excellent as well and is very much not set in the desert. Yes it is (Buster). It’s a really good film about American capitalism.
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Dec 12, 2020 16:44
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goddamnedtwisto posted:However I do now want to see a French cowboy movie with Clint Eastwood and Lee Van Cleef in a 30 minute dialogue about the bleakness of existence and the ennui of the cactus before the big shootout.
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Dec 12, 2020 17:11
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Isn't that just a samurai movie?
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Dec 12, 2020 17:17
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OwlFancier posted:Isn't that just a samurai movie? There's honestly so much cross-pollination between the two genres that they're basically just the same movies with different outfits. Leone borrowed from Kurosawa who borrowed from Ford.
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Dec 12, 2020 17:24
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP11jDHwX98 Pinnacle of cowboy movies here.
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Dec 12, 2020 17:25
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BTW, the people here who were drawing an equivalence between Iran and the UK: does stuff like this happen here? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...re_iOSApp_Other https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-55285301
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Dec 12, 2020 17:37
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therattle posted:BTW, the people here who were drawing an equivalence between Iran and the UK: does stuff like this happen here? Depends on your opinion of Julian Assange.
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Dec 12, 2020 17:40
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28 And obviously there is the recent high profile effort to shut down the tavistock clinic. So yes, I think "stuff like that" does happen here. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 17:50
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Both of those things are awful but I don’t see how they’re even slightly similar to what therattle posted?
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Dec 12, 2020 17:58
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State and legal enforcement of arbitrary theological rules directly at the expense of the lives and welfare of the people who those rules oppress? It seems quite comparable to the state locking up someone supporting women's equality for "corrupting the children"
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Dec 12, 2020 18:02
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There was that guy who tweeted the joke about blowing up the airport unless their service improves and got dragged through the courts. He only got a fine (also lost his job) and won on appeal eventually but yes we do criminalise social media posting in a general, although not as harsh, sense.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:04
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I suppose it's different in that the government here just hopes people will be murdered or die by their own hands rather than doing it themselves but the effect and intent seems quite similar. I think that's what you call free market efficiency.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:06
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OwlFancier posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28 That was repealed 17 years ago and did not AFAIK lead to people being imprisoned for ten years, or hanged. namesake posted:There was that guy who tweeted the joke about blowing up the airport unless their service improves and got dragged through the courts. He only got a fine (also lost his job) and won on appeal eventually but yes we do criminalise social media posting in a general, although not as harsh, sense. If you can’t see the distinction between a joke about a bomb blowing up an airport and some harmless image manipulation then I don’t know what to say. It’s worth noting that tweet joke guy’s conviction was quashed, as you say. The two experiences are hardly comparable. OwlFancier posted:State and legal enforcement of arbitrary theological rules directly at the expense of the lives and welfare of the people who those rules oppress? It seems quite comparable to the state locking up someone supporting women's equality for "corrupting the children" They are not comparable in degree or kind. The lines which are drawn about what is acceptable and what isn’t are so far apart that while your point is theoretically right, practically speaking it really isn’t. By your logic no regime is any better or worse than any other as the sane argument could be made.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:12
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The government doesn't directly murder leftists, they just nurture or do gently caress all about the far right who do it for them.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:12
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"Well if you point out the ways in which different governments do things that can be compared things then they seem comparable, and that inteferes with my desire to feel better than those people." 17 years, after all, is a vast, impossible gulf.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:16
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thread's full of snot today
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Dec 12, 2020 18:19
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bit late for cowboy chat but some things need to be reposted every time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGi6lpib-rU which of course led to one of the most successful goon challenges of all time (ruddiger I believe?)
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Dec 12, 2020 18:21
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Within living memory of course famously alan turing was castrated for the "gross indecency" of being gay so let's just say I am a little skeptical of people who want to claim there is some sort of qualitative racial difference between our blessed land and the barbarian foreigners.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:22
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OwlFancier posted:Within living memory of course famously alan turing was castrated for the "gross indecency" of being gay so let's just say I am a little skeptical of people who want to claim there is some sort of qualitative racial difference between our blessed land and the barbarian foreigners. skipped over yesterday's weird slap fight between chemists and must have missed when someone made that claim
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Dec 12, 2020 18:24
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I have minimal patience for people who want to spend their time waving around factoids in a national dick wagging contest because they're irrationally attached to that mode of viewing the world. The conflict between people who are on the receiving end of barbarity and those who want to inflict it does not break along national lines and people who want to transform the victories won by people fighting on the side of justice without the support of the state, into national totems after the fact to shake and beat their chests about are not people I want anything to do with. It is definitely a type of liberalism and I hate it. You do not get to rehabilitate the state that spent so much time brutalizing and suppressing people just because it has, momentarily, stopped doing it to some of them some of the time.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:37
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OwlFancier posted:"Well if you point out the ways in which different governments do things that can be compared things then they seem comparable, and that inteferes with my desire to feel better than those people." I’m saying they can only be compared at a very high level; so high that the comparison isn’t really valid. Preventing councils from advocating LGBT rights isn’t really the same as putting a teenage girl in jail for ten years for posting funny manipulated Instagram photos. A better analogy would have been the criminalisation of homosexual acts, but that wouldn’t work so well for you as it was repealed from 1967. Speaking of which, homosexual activity can be punished by death in Iran, but it’s all really the same as here. quote:The conflict between people who are on the receiving end of barbarity and those who want to inflict it does not break along national lines and people who want to transform the victories won by people fighting on the side of justice without the support of the state, into national totems after the fact to shake and beat their chests about are not people I want anything to do with. It is definitely a type of liberalism and I hate it. You do not get to rehabilitate the state that spent so much time brutalizing and suppressing people just because it has, momentarily, stopped doing it to some of them some of the time. I do understand this. But it is also a fact that some countries are less oppressive than others. I’m hardly saying that the UK has always been a beacon of tolerance. But from a human rights perspective things are better here, now, than they are in Iran. therattle fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 18:40
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I think the UK is bad in different and exciting ways to Iran, and there is definitely and obviously a large number of people who really do think that those bloody barbarians are just so much less civilised and more brutal than good old Blighty, but I’d also caution against going too far the other way to the point that you’re equivocating a guy getting put through the courts and winning for joking about bombing an airport and a woman being locked up for ten years for posting some entirely innocent photos on Instagram. E: jesus that’s probably the longest sentence I’ve ever written Jakabite fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 18:45
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And the fact that that is all that is important to you is why I find it annoying, who cares why it's that way, or how, or about whether it can be sustained, or advanced, all you give a poo poo about is that my country better than their country. That is all you ever focus on when this comes up. Your own poor bruised national pride. All the bad stuff was in the past, stop thinking about it, it's not relevant. All the current bad stuff isn't as bad as the other bad people, so let's not let that get in the way of waving the flag. E: @ therattle, not jakabite. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 18:45
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OwlFancier posted:And the fact that that is all that is important to you is why I find it annoying, who cares why it's that way, or how, or about whether it can be sustained, or advanced, all you give a poo poo about is that my country better than their country. That is all you ever focus on when this comes up. Your own poor bruised national pride. I’m not British. I occasionally support the english cricket team against neutrals but that’s about as far as my British “national pride” goes. (I always support Scotland, Wales, Ireland and France against England in 6 Nations rugby). I live here, and I like living here, in part because it’s a relatively free and decent place. I’m not blind to the UK’s past or present transgressions. But I think a lot of people are more negative about the UK than it deserves. What I don’t understand is how patently appalling human rights transgressions get waved away under some sort of skewed equivalence. “Well, we do some bad things so their awful things aren’t so bad”.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:54
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therattle posted:If you can’t see the distinction between a joke about a bomb blowing up an airport Well that rather depends if this womans conviction is later successfully appealed/pardoned as well doesn't it? There was a long period of time where the UK conviction was valid and you could make the same arguments about excessive state monitoring and prosecution. So either the nature of the threat against the airport is somehow criminal in itself and so should be treated differently regardless of how serious the tone or credible the threat is, which I think is a bad call as there are millions of idle threats delivered in person and online and it is not appropriate to level that sort of action against them all, or both the UK and Iran have in these cases really overstepped the mark in a comparable way and while the UK system eventually worked its way back to more solid ground Iran might still do the same.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:55
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I think my condemnation of Iran's human rights record doesn't loving matter but I can have a say in what goes on here
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Dec 12, 2020 18:56
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therattle posted:I’m not British. I occasionally support the english cricket team against neutrals but that’s about as far as my British “national pride” goes. (I always support Scotland, Wales, Ireland and France against England in 6 Nations rugby). I live here, and I like living here, in part because it’s a relatively free and decent place. I’m not blind to the UK’s past or present transgressions. But I think a lot of people are more negative about the UK than it deserves. They are not "waved away" you pillock we recognize that they are part of the same fight, which is a drat sight better than your approach of just going "oh look at the horrible foreigners how awful they are let us be glad we aren't them" which reduces their and our struggle to just loving points on your idiot nationalist scoreboard. Whether you identify as british or not you certainly behave like one. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 18:57
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Vitamin P posted:That's incredible. The article isn't even talking about historical stuff the entire topic is modern real-politik, objectively/apolitically it's actively absurd to ignore the most recent swing. True, this extends even to USSR-fiction. I've read multiple Russian SF-stories that basically started with "and at some point in the past, every worker across the world rose up against evil and joined the Soviet Union", and then is often just glossed over as an irrelevant thing of the past. Of course, all Humans are friends now and nation states don't exist anymore, and this and every other good thing you read is now associated with that little bit at the beginning, of world-wide communism winning. 
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Dec 12, 2020 18:58
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Guavanaut posted:Would it have kept pushing west though? Independence not succeeding means that the Proclamation of 1763 is still in effect, which sets a western limit. There'd be grumbling about that at the various governors' mansions, but it still leaves Louisiana (both the state and the wider area) in nominal French and Native American hands. The Proclamation was part of why independence was inevitable. It was made because London was fearful that if the colonies expanded too far it would be impossible to administrate them from Britain, not to mention that in the event of a secession conflict they'd be much richer and stronger. But at the same time it was a restriction that the colonies wanted to kick against for exactly those reasons. Taxes were the excuse for the American Revolution, but if Britain had bowed on that it would have been the prohibition on expansion instead.
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