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Arcsquad12 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUrm2aaPQe4 They are also worse then mournguls at the exact same job and about the same price, can't forget about that. It's a shame because they do look great, it's just their stats are entirely redundant with the other 1000ish cost infantry destroying monsters on the roster, they would do better if they filled some different role like cavalry grapplers.
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Dec 15, 2020 03:29
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Lore of Beasts was probably the second most popular pick in competitive MP (after Life), and REALLY doesn't need buffs. There's a reason the Manticore summon ate a 50% cost increase in this last patch, and basically the whole community agreed it was warranted (and it's still a fairly valuable pick, just not necessarily the "must pick" it was before) - the only real point of debate was that the two factions that had the summon switched to a Great Eagle really didn't need both that and the cost increase. As mentioned, there's a fair amount of fairly cheap buff/debuff utility in the rest of the lore as well, and Flock of Doom actually is fairly good at punishing low armor blobs while being much harder to dodge than a lot of the AoEs (and impossible if it's targeted on something). Like, it's perfectly fine if that Lore's specialties aren't someone's cup of tea, but "wow, Beasts is so underpowered and needs buffs" is absolutely hilarious. If it's relatively weaker in than some lores in SP, that's mostly because the AI is just plain terrible at dodging certain spell effects.
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Dec 15, 2020 04:10
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After the early game the army quality of your enemies in single player is a lot higher. Manticore summons are a substantial power increase in the limited armies you have in competitive multi-player. But when you are facing stacks of elite units the impact is not that great. Can use it to help goon characters of course which I guess is decent. But compared to a well placed major AP spell (like Wind of Death) it is very weak.
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Dec 15, 2020 04:21
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Do people even play MP Warhammer 2? Isn't the MP population some hilariously small fragment of the people that actually play the game? I always raise an eyebrow at the one or two people that Kramer into every conversation with the "actually, multiplayer balance!" argument.
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Dec 15, 2020 04:38
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Warhammer is basically the only Total War title that has used competitive MP tournaments as part of the pre-release hype cycle for DLCs, right?
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Dec 15, 2020 04:44
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Azran posted:Warhammer is basically the only Total War title that has used competitive MP tournaments as part of the pre-release hype cycle for DLCs, right? Aren't there like three Warhammer streamers total and half of them are Sieg Heil'ing Nazis? Is that a big draw?
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Dec 15, 2020 04:47
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litany of gulps posted:Aren't there like three Warhammer streamers total and half of them are Sieg Heil'ing Nazis? Is that a big draw? Literally every single word of this statement is completely wrong.
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Dec 15, 2020 04:49
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AnEdgelord posted:Literally every single word of this statement is completely wrong. I'll have to take your word for it! Seems like every time there's any discussion about the YouTube people, it instantly devolves into talk about which ones are Nazis or not. I guess the same goes for the modders, so maybe I'm just confused by that. Or are the streamers different from the YouTubers? Is it just Nazis all the way down? What is a single player supposed to make of it all?
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Dec 15, 2020 04:51
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litany of gulps posted:Do people even play MP Warhammer 2? Isn't the MP population some hilariously small fragment of the people that actually play the game? I always raise an eyebrow at the one or two people that Kramer into every conversation with the "actually, multiplayer balance!" argument. That's unfair. The MP guys are generally some of the most invested of anyone; there's a sizeable fraction of SP "players" that have zero hours in the game. They just own it, never even installed. As a fraction of the routine players for a strategy game the MP group are a much higher fraction of the long-term players, and even larger if you calculate by player-hours. MP balance also tends to be better when translated to SP than the converse. Frankly, SP can afford to be a lot less precise about where things lie in their world than the MP community would tolerate. In a world where you have limited time to calibrate your balance and are also routinely adding entirely new things into the mix that tip the scale, you sometimes have to let "good enough" be good enough instead of getting things perfect. In those cases, it's less onerous to the player base at large to work to the MP side first, then address SP if anything remains particularly egregious. Considering how the TW formula works they probably figure (rightly) that they can dedicate the majority of their tactical tweaking time to MP such that their SP balance team can prioritize looking at the strategic layer.
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Dec 15, 2020 04:55
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Hryme posted:After the early game the army quality of your enemies in single player is a lot higher. Manticore summons are a substantial power increase in the limited armies you have in competitive multi-player. But when you are facing stacks of elite units the impact is not that great. Can use it to help goon characters of course which I guess is decent. But compared to a well placed major AP spell (like Wind of Death) it is very weak. Fair, though the value of a fast moving source of terror is pretty up there even outside the gooning potential. Plus the power of stuff like Winds of Death really does fall under "the AI is terrible at dodging." Really though, I was mostly responding to those who thought it was a mediocre/bad MP lore - which absolutely isn't the case. For SP its other strength of being very cost efficient with its buffs/debuffs/Flock is admittedly much less important once you get rolling.
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Dec 15, 2020 04:57
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orangelex44 posted:That's unfair. The MP guys are generally some of the most invested of anyone; there's a sizeable fraction of SP "players" that have zero hours in the game. They just own it, never even installed. As a fraction of the routine players for a strategy game the MP group are a much higher fraction of the long-term players, and even larger if you calculate by player-hours. Based on this thread, there's a huge majority of SP long-term players with tremendous amounts of hours invested. I'm sure tons of people bought the game and never even installed it, though, based on the evidence you provided (none). The MP people who talk about the importance of MP balance are about on par with the SFO people, frankly. Edit: Except there are a lot less of them litany of gulps fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 05:06
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litany of gulps posted:Based on this thread, there's a huge majority of SP long-term players with tremendous amounts of hours invested. I'm sure tons of people bought the game and never even installed it, though, based on the evidence you provided (none). The MP people who talk about the importance of MP balance are about on par with the SFO people, frankly. The most popular achievement in TW:WH2 has a ~75% global completion rate. It's to complete any ritual, which seems pretty fair to use a proxy for any significant time played (although I will freely admit I cannot extend that to having installed the game in the first place). I'd say a quarter of the player base is a "sizeable fraction". In fact... there's an achievement for playing a multiplayer battle, which has a ~33% completion rate (adjusts to 44% if you only consider the 75% of actual players). The achievement for winning 10 MP battles (I believe this includes campaign) has a ~16% completion rate (adjusts to 21%). It's not the majority by any means, but we're also not talking about a fringe case either.
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Dec 15, 2020 05:26
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orangelex44 posted:Adjustments Ooh, did you adjust for co-op play and mortal empires? Or that only some of the vortex races have rituals?
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Dec 15, 2020 05:38
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litany of gulps posted:Based on this thread, there's a huge majority of SP long-term players with tremendous amounts of hours invested. I'm sure tons of people bought the game and never even installed it, though, based on the evidence you provided (none). The MP people who talk about the importance of MP balance are about on par with the SFO people, frankly. One you have also provided jack poo poo for evidence. Two they have always been making adjustments to the campaign based on mp experience and that has yet to cause any issues.
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Dec 15, 2020 06:00
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MP is definitely more niche than SP. You can even see it on youtube and twitch: 9 out of 10 total war streamers play single player campaigns for their channels. That's not saying the MP people are any less devoted than them, but there are a lot more SP players than MP. That said, I guess I did underestimate Beasts a little. It works, but I've only ever used it on wood elves (no other factions I like have it), so things like summoning a single great eagle makes it feel super weak and bad, compared to pit of shades getting 200 kills for the same cost. Flock definitely is strong in the early game, but it gets out scaled fast by literally every enemy type, which is fairly unique. Life has better buffs. Shadows has better debuffs. Both kill better. I haven't used most of the other Lores on them, but Fire and Death (not accessible) are just all around better too. Beast definitely still feels like it's missing something big, but I'll take this as a 'there is no magic buffing mod' KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 06:03
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My biggest issue with Beasts is that I get so much usage out of flock and amber spear that I rarely think about the rest of the lore.
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Dec 15, 2020 06:06
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In terms of nazi or nazi-adjacent content creators, the two most notorious ones were Arch (previously ArchWarhammer, who got branded persona non-grata by GW) but he was never one of CA's official partners, he was just very popular on Youtube. Then you had LegendofTotalWar, who did some very yikes stuff like arrange troops on swastika-shaped formations. Apparently he cleaned up his act and CA started dealing with him again, unlike Arch. It's hard to understate just how wide a gulf there is between someone like Legend and Arch. The latter has openly used racial slurs and had a whole team of pedophiles as moderators on his Discord server; Legend got banned from CA events for a while, GW told all their partners not to associate with Arch. This is just the English-speaking Youtube community - the Spanish content creators I'm aware of are very much pro-fascist and hardcore racists, including an officially-endorsed CA content creator (Mayorcete). But since no one cares about the Spanish-speaking community then it flies under the radar. Edit: A student of mine pointed this out to me, I wouldn't have found out otherwise. We went diving into Mayorcete's Twitter and we found a post by a falangista (the pro-Franco fascists) asking him why he refused to acknowledge himself as right-wing when his spoused opinions were very clearly hardcore right-wing. You know you hosed up when a fascist is asking you why all the denial about you being one of them. Azran fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 06:11
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I had a flock caster in every army in my Drycha playthrough. The range when you overcast it is massive so it's a good replacement for artillery. It does a lot of work against any army that isn't mostly low unit count units
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Dec 15, 2020 06:13
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litany of gulps posted:Ooh, did you adjust for co-op play and mortal empires? Or that only some of the vortex races have rituals? It doesn't matter either way. Whether it's 15% or 21% of players that have meaningful MP experience you're still talking about a "sizeable fraction" which is all I ever claimed in the first place. Same logic applies to the fraction of the player base that has very little play experience; it might not be the full 25% but even if it's only half that number you're still sitting at 12%. That's plenty big enough to push the MP fraction up another couple percentage points. These are estimates, but they're not baseless. And I should also mention... litany of gulps posted:The MP people who talk about the importance of MP balance are about on par with the SFO people, frankly. This is provably wrong. TW:WH2 has sold somewhere between 2-5 million copies (large range is because there's no official number that I am aware of, this is from a Steam review algorithm); SFO currently has ~300k subscribers. Assuming the very lowest number of the estimated range, you get 300k/2000k = 15%... which is right about the same as the number of people that have played at least 10 MP battles. Trying to distract the discussion with minutiae that don't really affect the main point is disingenuous. If you want to debate like an rear end in a top hat, feel free, but I'm trying to make a good-faith argument here.
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Dec 15, 2020 07:20
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I like this game because I get to kill lots of things in lots of different ways
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Dec 15, 2020 08:34
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i shoot the rat, and the rat shoots me i am also the rat
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Dec 15, 2020 08:55
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Raygereio posted:Legit confused at the people saying Lore of Beast sucks. It's has useful unit (de)buffs and Flock of Doom can carry you through the early game, while still being useful in the late game. In vortex. In ME their starting enemy is DE! Having said that, it does a great job chewing through all the beastmen coming at you. I'm not a big fan of the buff spells in this game though, I want to be casting big dramatic spells, give me a nice vortex or wind spell. Flock of doom would be much better with a cooler visual effect. Or buff amber spear to the shadow of the horned rat level of killing a rat ogre in a single cast with perfect homing. I liked beasts in that game a lot. Summoning a great eagle as your capstone is just poo poo as well. Especially in a sisters campaign where you start with a great eagle and then spend your whole time with it going "why can't you be another unit of hawk riders instead? Oh wait I can recruit them now, done."
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Dec 15, 2020 10:15
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toasterwarrior posted:i shoot the rat, and the rat shoots me I believe by law this makes you the giant rat that makes all of the rules.
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Dec 15, 2020 12:15
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honestly if I were the guy in charge of the vampire coast, gunnery prometheans would be replaced with animated hulks only the animated hulks would work exactly like gunnery prometheans already do with grapeshot cannon arms because their model is wicked and that would give it a place in the game.
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Dec 15, 2020 12:23
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Animated Hulks as mini Necroflexes would have honestly been better, agreed. Currently I only ever recruit them as a stopgap until I get Prometheans.
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Dec 15, 2020 12:38
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Give them a anti-large role where their tentacle hands and shark stomachs let them speed debuff large units they hit.
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Dec 15, 2020 12:41
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MP in TW has always been the definition of a vocal minority. In terms of populations it's something like MP players < people who watch MP streamers <<<< normal people who play the game properly in single player campaigns.
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Dec 15, 2020 14:51
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I wish there was a mod that put in Shogun 1 style army movement. Just let me attack the drat province already, setting up ambushes is great and all, but I just want to battle and not play grab rear end with the AI moving .0005 pixels out of attack range. Maybe a mod that increases reinforcement range by 50000% would do the trick. Every army on the map can just fight at once and be done with it
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Dec 15, 2020 15:05
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Yeah, Warhams has had an unusually popular multiplayer scene for a TW game, and they've done a good job curating it. It's still the vastly less popular than singleplayer though
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Dec 15, 2020 15:09
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https://twitter.com/totalwar/status/1338861686162214912?s=19
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Dec 15, 2020 16:05
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litany of gulps posted:Do people even play MP Warhammer 2? Isn't the MP population some hilariously small fragment of the people that actually play the game? I always raise an eyebrow at the one or two people that Kramer into every conversation with the "actually, multiplayer balance!" argument. This isn’t the warhammer campaign only thread. It’s not “kramering” to talk about mp in here you weirdo. I’d say it is “kramering” to pop in and start accusing mp players of being figments of the imagination and also nazis though.
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Dec 15, 2020 16:31
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Jojo rabbit was about warhammer 2 mp
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Dec 15, 2020 16:32
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MP is really fun in this game. People should play it if they havent.
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Dec 15, 2020 16:35
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Do faction or lord-specific effects matter in multiplayer, and how much?
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Dec 15, 2020 16:48
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My hot take is actually, the people who get very opinionated about multiplayer are p much 100% SP-only assholes who are much louder than anyone who likes ranked battles. Bonus points if it’s a grumpy middle aged man who thinks I’m dumb for liking to watch video game streams while I do poo poo around the house, instead of whatever dumb background tv they like and probably pay a premium for Turin is more entertaining than most sports commentators and free to watch, Sotek aggressively calls out nazis in the community and is free to watch, streaming rules
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Dec 15, 2020 16:49
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Dr Christmas posted:Do faction or lord-specific effects matter in multiplayer, and how much? Not in quick match. They do in MP campaigns.
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Dec 15, 2020 16:52
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I’ve played way more than I would like to admit in SP but have never touched MP but have been thinking about trying g it out over the holidays. How is the average MP person? Competent or only slightly better than the AI?
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Dec 15, 2020 17:26
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Nash posted:I’ve played way more than I would like to admit in SP but have never touched MP but have been thinking about trying g it out over the holidays. Quick/ranked battles are always going to be a mixed bag, although that isn't an issue unique to TW multiplayers. You're as likely to play against a competent player than someone packing ten flyers that just go for a general snipe. I'd recommend hopping on the goon discord and just asking. We're pretty chill and won't tryhard.
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Dec 15, 2020 17:38
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I like the multiplayer in this now and then, it reminds me that just placing my guys in a long line doesn't make me a tactical genius just because it stomps the AI 100% of the time, and with some friends it can make a good game to just do some 2vs2's or 3vs3's in the lobby and have fun there. There are quite a few channels that go over multiplayer replays that are surprisingly good watches too, like mentioned Turin is pretty good. I feel like we're past the point of this being a multiplayer version of the tw pontus meme.
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Dec 15, 2020 18:29
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 22:30 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ExVrGsKTk4
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Dec 15, 2020 18:36
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