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Some of my musings on bourbon and age statements/scarcity. I am as much of a sucker as anyone for an age statement, and my sense of FOMO gets out of control at times. That said, I’ve found that while age statements can make people pay too much, they can also work the other way when it comes to bourbon. So many of the limited release or just more scarce bourbons are NOT that special or worth it at all. Take michter’s 10, fancy bottle, hefty price tag. Like $140 or something retail, 94.4 proof, huh!? I’ve sampled I think the 2019 M10 and it was a nice bourbon, but there is literally nothing about it that would make it any more special than other 10 year bourbons out there. Eagle rare, Bulleit 10, Russel’s Reserve 10 year, knob creek 9 year or any store pick, Evan Williams single barrel is ~ 8 years. Even the ridiculous hyped van winkle lineup, I think a good makers mark private selection stands up very well against the Weller line up, apart from maybe WLW. Just about any of the super hyped stuff has a very comparable and potentially just as good bottle readily available or semi available. I think the excepting could be WLW, cause I don’t know of other wheated bourbons that high proof l, and maybe like the 20+ year van winkles.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:05
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Michter's 10 is a few steps up in my opinion from the other 10 years you listed. Michter's has a lower barrel entry proof than a lot of stuff so it's lower proof is a different beast than that 92 proof Elijah Craig bottle and it shows. It also is really a blend of 10 to ~18 year whiskey that they just age state at 10. That said I think it is priced correctly at $120. I paid $100 this year because the store was still using the old MSRP and it was a no brainier for me. But the $250 it gets on secondary? Hell no. But I can still walk into a dozen stores and get a 12 year age stated ECBP for under $70 Pappy, BTAC, sure they're often worth the hype and 2-3x MSRP. But even that's below the on-shelf price at many places and secondary price online. Edit: and I totally agree with you on the Maker's - they have stuff that beats every Weller offering that's available everywhere Even their "limited" offerings (46 cask strength, 101, wood finishing series, private select) are super competitively priced, available, and amazing Deceptive Thinker fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Dec 3, 2020 |
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Dec 3, 2020 03:36
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I have given up on 1792 and Buffalo Trace and have mixed them in an empty Glenmorangie 18 bottle. Hopefully I didn’t just waste $50 including an allocated bottle.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:37
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DoctaFun posted:I think a good makers mark private selection stands up very well against the Weller line up My man. The first year I really went wild with the rare stuff, I liked MM Private Select more and more than any of them. It's still my favorite. So the next year got a lot easier. Just grabbed as many of them as I could. I like that Costco has it in their gift packs now, I can proselytize.
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Dec 3, 2020 05:35
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Deceptive Thinker posted:It's 90 proof in the US I don't think they view what's going on as a problem in need of a solution. They view it as a wildly successful commercial strategy on which they have now doubled and tripled down. Once a particular bottle catches fire they add more variants to reignite the hype factor and keep it trendy. The real goal of the entire operation is to move enormous volumes of their baseline, young product (Buffalo Trace, Weller Special Reserve, Sazerac, 1792, even Blanton's). They've succeeded at that, probably beyond their wildest imagination. The "special" bottles like Rock Hill Farms and Elmer T Lee are absolutely produced in specific, limited quantities as special editions to make them artificially desirable. They probably would prefer that their customers see them a bit more in the wild rather than essentially never, but the last thing they want is for these bottles to sit on the shelves and become "normal." It's essentially all a cynical game, but that's just what marketing is. Vox Nihili fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Dec 3, 2020 |
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Dec 3, 2020 20:16
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Deceptive Thinker posted:Old Forester 1920 is probably the best readily available bourbon right now, though you have to enjoy higher proof stuff. If that's not your cup of tea then 1910 might be a better fit I don't know about "best" but 1920 is absolutely legit. I generally dislike the Old Forester flavor profile but 1920 is its own beast (in my estimation, anyway). It's super dense and packed to the brim with the sweeter end of the bourbon flavor spectrum without running hot or being cloying. They really did a great job on it, and the profile has stayed consistent over the three or four different bottles of it I've had over the past couple years.
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Dec 3, 2020 20:25
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Deceptive Thinker posted:It's 90 proof in the US Thank you for your insight!
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Dec 3, 2020 20:33
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Vox Nihili posted:I don't think they view what's going on as a problem in need of a solution. They view it as a wildly successful commercial strategy on which they have now doubled and tripled down. Once a particular bottle catches fire they add more variants to reignite the hype factor and keep it trendy. The real goal of the entire operation is to move enormous volumes of their baseline, young product (Buffalo Trace, Weller Special Reserve, Sazerac, 1792, even Blanton's). They've succeeded at that, probably beyond their wildest imagination. I get it for the super premium products like BTAC but Elmer T Lee? really? The only logic I see for the lack of RHF, Elmer T Lee is that Blantons is the same liquid but at a higher MSRP so they make more money (and the same can basically be said for Weller 12 vs the others. There's no Weller 12 because they're bottling most of the Weller stocks at 6-8 years) So RAISE THE PRICE...ETL and RHF already go for twice the price of Blanton's on secondary. Weller 12 goes for about half-2/3 the price of a Lot B.
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Dec 3, 2020 20:45
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Deceptive Thinker posted:I get it for the super premium products like BTAC but Elmer T Lee? really? ETL has always been one of their "special" once a year offerings even though it used to be somewhat more available. On the plus side no one is really missing out on anything special due to a lack of ETL on the market. I would rather that they start selling Blanton's SFTB in the United States, which is the best way to enjoy that mashbill anyway. I have no idea what's up with RHF in terms of their branding and portfolio, it seems like an entirely random expression that most people don't even recognize (even though it's probably the best way to enjoy the Blanton's mashbill that's actually available in the United States). One of my local liquor stores had four bottles of the stuff sitting on the shelf for months at around MSRP last year despite having all the other hyped stuff jacked up to nonsensical prices and locked in stupid glass cases (as an obsessive whiskey nerd I dutifully picked up a single bottle of RHF to try). Vox Nihili fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Dec 3, 2020 |
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Dec 3, 2020 22:18
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Deceptive Thinker posted:Michter's 10 is a few steps up in my opinion from the other 10 years you listed. Michter's has a lower barrel entry proof than a lot of stuff so it's lower proof is a different beast than that 92 proof Elijah Craig bottle and it shows. It also is really a blend of 10 to ~18 year whiskey that they just age state at 10. Dang, I definitely hadn’t heard of the older whisky blended in, although it makes sense as I’m sure that’s fairly common for special release bottles. You make a good point about the lower entry proof as well, but I think I’m still at the point where I don’t think there’s an extra $80-$100 worth of value out that compared to some of the other bottles that are more readily available. It’s amazing that scotch is actually surpassing bourbon in some echelons for value, but here we are. I mean, $140 for a bottle of Glendronach 18, or $140 for Clyde Mays 10 year straight bourbon? Peerless barrel select 3/4 year bourbon, Or even the crazy amount of bottles in the $100 range: Winchester 12 year single barrel Any barrel bottle Angels envy rye Any Kentucky owl crap Bib and Tucker 12 year Like, you are absolutely getting far more value IMO on that Glendronach than any of those bottles. Was so different when you could grab like an Elijah Craig 18 for like $50, or any of those Buffalo trace products at retail. If I see a bottle of bourbon I’m interested in that’s ‘scarce’, I’ll often pull up finedrams and say ,’what scotch could I get instead’.
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Dec 4, 2020 22:19
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Honestly like any other product there's diminishing returns on the price-value curve the higher you get and it's what you perceive value to be A $150 bottle isn't going to be 3X better than a $50 bottle and some (many) are arguably worse. I only spend that much when I know what I'm getting (or at least have a strong idea of it). Deceptive Thinker fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Dec 4, 2020 |
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Dec 4, 2020 23:13
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I got some Old Forester Rye, it's good
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Dec 5, 2020 00:10
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Gravitee posted:I'm working on a wheated bourbon infinity bottle. No idea how it'll turn out but I've been adding random bourbons to it for at least a year now. I decided to crack into this tonight and it's pretty drat good if I do say so myself. Some of the contents: MM MM 101 MM RE 2019 MM SR4 2020 Larceny BP Weller 12 WLW Weller Antique Weller FP Old Elk Wheated Others I've probably forgotten I think by sticking to a relatively similar recipe (wheaters) it's meshed pretty well.
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Dec 6, 2020 02:59
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How is the MM101? The store was sadly sold out of the special whatever its called with the staves but I sw 101 on sale. Picked up a Knob Creek barrel select instead but I was intrigued by the MM101.
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Dec 6, 2020 03:14
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I love the MM 101. It's my go-to every day bourbon at $35. I bought three last time my local got it in stock. I'm a wheater geek though. Edit: An age stated Knob Creek pick is a solid buy though.
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Dec 6, 2020 03:32
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Love the MM101 Better than Weller 107 and both cheaper and easier to find
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Dec 6, 2020 03:59
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Lowness 72 posted:How is the MM101? The store was sadly sold out of the special whatever its called with the staves but I sw 101 on sale. Picked up a Knob Creek barrel select instead but I was intrigued by the MM101. Genuinely exceeded my expectations. The proof is about midway between the regular version and the cask strength version but it tasted a lot closer to the latter.
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Dec 7, 2020 10:36
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Just cracked my bottle of ECBP B520 and holy cow, this is great. Super deep caramel/butterscotch flavor and nose for me. The nose on this is incredible. I have a bottle of the B519 that was super dry/tannic for the first 1/3 of the bottle or so, but now it’s pretty good. But honestly I struggled through the first 1/3 of that bottle, wondering if the EC profile was just too dry. This B520 has been getting really good reviews(even relative to other ECBP batches) so I thought I’d try it out. I’m a total believer now, I feel like I should trade for a couple more bottles of this because I don’t know that bourbon gets much better unless you find a couple unicorns.
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Dec 7, 2020 18:55
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We're doing spirit advent calendars this year and I got the scotch one. I tried the Tamdhu 12 and while the nose was full of fruit, the taste was really thin, dry and almost astringent? Maybe some spice on the end but nothing at all what I was expecting. Is that a me problem, a bad bottle? I've never had their stuff before so dunno what went wrong.
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Dec 7, 2020 22:21
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Carillon posted:We're doing spirit advent calendars this year and I got the scotch one. I tried the Tamdhu 12 and while the nose was full of fruit, the taste was really thin, dry and almost astringent? Maybe some spice on the end but nothing at all what I was expecting. Is that a me problem, a bad bottle? I've never had their stuff before so dunno what went wrong. The only tamdhu I’ve had was a cask strength, so I can’t speak to that particular bottle unfortunately. I know a lot of the ‘entry malts’ in a distiller’s lineup can be on the lighter/thinner end(glenlivet for example), but not sure if tamdhu is in that same camp! I’m not a big Islay guy, but that’s one thing I appreciate about an Ardbeg 10 or Laphroaig 10, they are not light and boring!
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Dec 7, 2020 23:30
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Weird Whiskey! About 3 years ago I went to a tasting held by a whiskey group in my area. Along with some other strange and interesting bottles including Floki Sheep Dung Reserve and a bottle from the late 1940s, one other whiskey stood out  The bottle with the white wax top in the back of that photo. A limited release from Charbay distillery in California bottled for the "Bourbon Crusaders" a group I'd had experience with as there were a number of Four Roses private select picks by them in my cabinet, from two different stores. Distilled from finished beer it was a quite a wild ride that rivaled some of the 30 year scotches, WLW, and 13 year Willett we'd tasted in prior meetings. Yet, super super weird. "How can I get a bottle?" "They're long gone, don't know if or when there will be the chance for another" such is the way with some of these releases. Flash forward to this Thanksgiving and I'm doing my weekly check of a local store's inventory for new arrivals and I see the name on their new arrivals: Charbay; 4 different whiskey's; one is a single barrel pick that's awfully expensive but seeing the name triggers the familiarity and the wonder and I go to google. Holy crap, that's it - picked by that same whiskey group that I was dropped from late last year for lack of attendance.  While obviously not exactly the same as the bottle I remember from 3 years ago, this stuff is still crazy. Distilled from a czech pilsner in 2015 using an alembic pot still; aged about 5 years in new charred American Oak, bottled at a Hazmat level 148.6 proof (74.3% abv). Thick and viscous on the tongue. Noses and first hits the tongue like an American single malt but then comes in with a super sweet yet bitter richness of well aged port finished bourbons. Then the finish. Not spicy, just coating and warm and then BAM! HOPS! my mouth tastes like weed. This whiskey lingers and I can still taste it long after the sip. Sipping this you'd never expect it to be this high a proof. This is smoother than some of the 92 proof scotch I've had recently. I poured a glass of 110 proof Russell's Reserve to compare and the heat/spice from that overwhelmed me because I was not expecting it and I almost choked. Wow, just wow. This will not be everyone's cup of tea. The hops and bitterness are not a typical whiskey note. Much like peated scotch isn't everyone's thing, but I like this in the way that I like peat. It's not going to take the spot of a good sweet or spicy bourbon or rye but rather complement it in the right moment. Marko, the master distiller recommends tasting this at 125 proof (using an 85/15 water dilution) so that's my next trial to see what other flavors I can coax out of this. I went back on Friday to get another bottle before they sold out. (Bottle #69 because I couldn't help being immature). Once people got word of this it wasn't going to last long. Yesterday the store upped the price by $100. Even after that, now there's only one bottle left on their website now, which means that's the last one on the shelf and there's -maybe- a case left in the store in the back room. If you see barrel proof Charbay whiskey at a tasting, whiskey bar, or store that with open bottles to try: all I can say is try it. You're doing a disservice if you don't at least taste it given the opportunity.
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Dec 8, 2020 03:54
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Can anyone recommend any weird, heavily sherried drams? I’m thinking like from a country you wouldn’t expect. I’ve done Japan and Taiwan. Hoping to find something a bit under the radar. It’s for a gift 
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Dec 8, 2020 12:53
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Could give Starward Solera a look, it's an Australian whisky matured in Apera casks (which is basically Australian sherry).
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Dec 8, 2020 18:36
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I've only had the Old Forrester 1920 but I really like it. Tempted by some of these store picks: New Riff Bottled in Bond Maltster 5yr, 100p Wheated bourbon produced with three styles of malted wheat: malted, raw and gently kilned dark "A rich darker riff on a Kentucky sour mash classic" $65.00 Wilderness Trail 6yr BIB Bourbon 6yr, 100p, non-chill filtered -- oldest release from one of the newest, well-regarded distilleries in Kentucky $79.00 Jack Rose Old Forester Barrel Proof No age statement 127.7 proof Tasting notes: candied pecan, praline, structured tannins, lingering finish $129.00 Jack Rose Uncle Nearest 1820 Single Barrel 11yr, 115.20 Tasting notes: stewed apples, baking spices, touch of tobacco $119.00 Jack Rose New Riff Single Barrel Bourbon 4yr, 107.5p Notes: high rye mash, cooked apple, lush caramel, light herbs $69.00 Jack Rose Hughes Brothers Straight Rye Whiskey Inaugural release, Barrel proof, 8yr, 114.4p $89.00 Jack Rose Old Forester Single Barrel x yr, 90p Warehouse K, Floor 3 $49.00
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Dec 9, 2020 14:29
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Josh Lyman posted:I've only had the Old Forrester 1920 but I really like it. Tempted by some of these store picks: Have you had any of the more standard barrel proof or higher proof offerings out there before? Thinking like: Makers cask strength Makers’s private select Elijah Craig barrel proof Jack SiB Barrel proof Rare breed Russel’s reserve single barrel store picks Knob creek store picks The only reason I ask is they are pretty affordable and much more ‘known’ than some of what you listed. Not that some of those couldn’t be absolute bangers, but the older established distilleries just come at smaller cost most of the time!
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Dec 9, 2020 22:42
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DoctaFun posted:Have you had any of the more standard barrel proof or higher proof offerings out there before? Thinking like: e: v Fair enough, I'll keep looking for some interesting stuff at normal retailers. Josh Lyman fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Dec 10, 2020 |
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Dec 10, 2020 01:20
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IMO, Jack Rose is a great place to try whiskey but I don't know if I'd pay the inflated prices for their barrel picks. Most of those are like 25%+ markup
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Dec 10, 2020 01:27
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Josh Lyman posted:I've only had the Old Forrester 1920 but I really like it. Tempted by some of these store picks: It's too bad that New Riff wheater isn't at cask strength. It sounds very interesting.
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Dec 10, 2020 19:33
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I was able to try EH Taylor and it’s really well balanced. The finish is very slightly off but I can definitely see the appeal.
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Dec 11, 2020 05:50
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I love Old Forester 1920 but if I don’t have a problem with the proof, is there any point to try the other Whiskey Row series? Alternatively I’m thinking of picking up Jack Daniels Single Barrel, Makers Cask Strength, or Four Roses Small Batch. Everything mentioned is on sale this month.
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Dec 16, 2020 01:51
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Josh Lyman posted:I love Old Forester 1920 but if I don’t have a problem with the proof, is there any point to try the other Whiskey Row series? Alternatively I’m thinking of picking up Jack Daniels Single Barrel, Makers Cask Strength, or Four Roses Small Batch. Everything mentioned is on sale this month. 1910 is different enough and also very very good. Bottled in Bond tastes like a nicer version of their $26ish dollar bottle, and I never had Small Batch. Maybe you'd want the BiB if you can't get the 1920. Which I can't these days. Here in west Wisconsin the 1920 and 1910 are now highly allocated, and you'll be lucky to see it on shelves more than two or three times a year. (If you folks think otherwise please tell me where you're seeing it.) The 1910 loving costs $95 in Chippewa Falls, what the poo poo. Statesmen is however everywhere and pretty good. Smooth drinker, fruitier and very different from their other bottles, I don't know if I want to spend $65 on it, but I've found it at places for $52. Automata 10 Pack fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Dec 16, 2020 |
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Dec 16, 2020 02:06
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Josh Lyman posted:I love Old Forester 1920 but if I don’t have a problem with the proof, is there any point to try the other Whiskey Row series? Alternatively I’m thinking of picking up Jack Daniels Single Barrel, Makers Cask Strength, or Four Roses Small Batch. Everything mentioned is on sale this month. Definitely recommend the Maker's Cask strength of those on that list
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Dec 16, 2020 02:16
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Sounds like I should consider getting a backup bottle of 1920 since it’s $58 w/tax this month. Makers Cask Strength is $42 w/tax this month. On an unrelated note, Kilchoman Machir Bay and Port Charlotte have been my most disappointing recent purchases. They’re good but I feel like Ardbeg/Lagavulin does it better. Not sure if that means I should drink them now to get them out of way or just let them sit. 
Josh Lyman fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Dec 16, 2020 |
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Dec 16, 2020 02:20
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I grabbed a bottle of 1920 at Costco because you guys were talking it up so much. I gotta say - it lives up to the hype, and I normally don't love Brown Forman juice. It's so much better than the 1792 Barrel Proof.
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Dec 16, 2020 02:23
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Odd Mutant posted:Maybe you'd want the BiB if you can't get the 1920. Which I can't these days. Here in west Wisconsin the 1920 and 1910 are now highly allocated, and you'll be lucky to see it on shelves more than two or three times a year. (If you folks think otherwise please tell me where you're seeing it.) The 1910 loving costs $95 in Chippewa Falls, what the poo poo. So weird how bourbon availability is so different even within states. Old Forester 1910 and 1920 is p reliably in stock for MSRP here in Madison. Just got gifted a bottle of George Remus. Not bad, I'm not sure I would buy a bottle, but I'm enjoying every glass I've had so far.
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Dec 16, 2020 04:01
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Paul Proteus posted:I grabbed a bottle of 1920 at Costco because you guys were talking it up so much. I gotta say - it lives up to the hype, and I normally don't love Brown Forman juice. It's so much better than the 1792 Barrel Proof. Was there the double bottle pack? If so, how'd you like the 100 proof that came with it?
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Dec 16, 2020 05:15
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I am running a survey about Japanese whisky to try and nail down specifics about what people do and don't like. The idea is to create some reference material about what the international audience thinks, as discussions about creating some actual standards for the category continue here in Japan. Is it cool if I post it here?
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Dec 16, 2020 05:24
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Josh Lyman posted:Sounds like I should consider getting a backup bottle of 1920 since it’s $58 w/tax this month. Makers Cask Strength is $42 w/tax this month. Well they're not going to get better with age or anything. Quite the opposite actually if they have been opened already.
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Dec 16, 2020 07:59
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Carillon posted:Was there the double bottle pack? If so, how'd you like the 100 proof that came with it? Nope - just straight cases of 1920 in Louisville, so I can't say.
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Dec 16, 2020 13:31
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I think the double bottle pack is the 1910 and 100 edit: maybe there's both actually
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Dec 16, 2020 13:44
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