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Skeleton Mom posted:well, they still can't bring back unbalanced generics like this. the trouble is that any deck that's new and performing well but doesn't have any direct hits yet like eldlich (in tcg anyways) or infernoble would gain access to pot of greed or graceful charity, which unbalances the game way further. Sure, but being able to use old powerful cards could be an incentive to use new cards beyond basic power creep. There could be the balance of "the new cards are weaker, but I can use flood gates with them."
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Dec 15, 2020 10:42
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that incentive would exist with generics that aren't banned but would be hit on this hypothetical banlist. so you might buy a new deck so you can run 3 copies of ash blossom or psyframe gamma, whereas a more established deck like dinosaur would have those generics in conflict with a key card in their deck like oviraptor
Skeleton Mom fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 11:31
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Duel Links does regularly nerf decks by semilimiting one of their key cards, which slightly hurts the consistency of the deck, but much more importantly means they can't also use powerful generics like Enemy Controller, Treacherous Trap Hole, etc. And, for the most part, it works. Like, you can still play Lightsworns, you just can't use Charge of the Light Brigade and Gold Sarcophagus at the same time any more. (I mean, they recently used the limited lists to take Dark Magicians and Shiranui out back behind the shed the way they always do with decks that are too good for too long, but...) girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 12:16
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All letting people play one of [busted staple] would do is increase luck-sacs, which are generally not that fun to be on the receiving end of in a game like this. Until recently Duel Links let you play Grass at 1 rather than ban it, which basically sent the message of "blowing people out with this is fine, but only if it happens just sometimes".
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Dec 15, 2020 16:55
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PMush Perfect posted:(I mean, they recently used the limited lists to take Dark Magicians and Shiranui out back behind the shed the way they always do with decks that are too good for too long, but...) shiranui deserved everything that happened to it, that deck was top-tier and most played for a solid year and soft hits to consistency weren't slowing the deck down at all. dark magician was similar but to a lesser extent, but basically meant that any time you went into pvp you had overwhelming odds that one of these decks would be your opponent. neither deck was unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination (though shiranui sunsaga was an auto-win against decks not packing non-destruction removal) but it got really really boring
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Dec 15, 2020 19:47
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Also a big part of why the Duel Links system is the way it is is so they can avoid actually banning cards, because that would look super terrible for a company on a purely digital medium.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:34
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Skeleton Mom posted:shiranui deserved everything that happened to it, that deck was top-tier and most played for a solid year and soft hits to consistency weren't slowing the deck down at all. dark magician was similar but to a lesser extent, but basically meant that any time you went into pvp you had overwhelming odds that one of these decks would be your opponent. neither deck was unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination (though shiranui sunsaga was an auto-win against decks not packing non-destruction removal) but it got really really boring Edit: I recently got whipped by Dragunity, which was downright nostalgic. Edit 2: It’s somewhere between sad and funny how little of an impact I’ve seen XYZ monsters make. I look pretty stupid for all my doomsaying about it. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Dec 15, 2020 |
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Dec 15, 2020 21:54
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Just wait until the better Xyz monsters get released.
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Dec 15, 2020 22:26
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Vandar posted:Just wait until the better Xyz monsters get released.
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Dec 15, 2020 22:34
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PMush Perfect posted:Sorry, I phrased that poorly. I meant that it can still be used to kill decks, rather than just slow them down. I’m sad to see my DMs go, but against all odds, my BEWDs are still very good. So I’m not too unhappy with where the meta is at. i'm sorry too, i didn't mean to come across like i was disagreeing with you, just trying to expand on what you were saying for folks who aren't as informed about the game quote:Edit 2: It’s somewhere between sad and funny how little of an impact I’ve seen XYZ monsters make. I look pretty stupid for all my doomsaying about it. i think the banlist helps. i built and played onomat for a fair bit and that deck just plain could not beat sunsaga or cocytus. there is nothing in the R4 (or R6) toolbox that deals with them effectively right now. the trouble so far seems to be the very slow drip of entry-level xyz monsters into a format that already has synchro and fusion powerhouses beyond what we had when xyz dropped in tcg, and the limited extra deck space also hurts any sort of toolbox deck fundamentally
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Dec 15, 2020 22:45
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The issue with implementing a Duel Links-style banlist for the actual game is that it becomes WAY harder to actually administrate. In events where you have to submit your deck, sure, it's fine, but if you're in a local without that sort of supervision, it opens up the opportunity to hide several limited cards in your deck, and nobody will notice as long as you only play one of them per duel.
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Dec 16, 2020 07:30
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Aye, but you've always been able to do that. It's called cheating. I think that Bandit Keith fella did it a few times in the show if you recall, and he didn't know what duel links was because he isn't a real person.
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Dec 16, 2020 08:05
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Vandar posted:Just wait until the better Xyz monsters get released. Duel links R4 meta when In fact i dont think theres been any of the real problem xyz cards in duel links yet. Though the majority are R4. R8 is completely empty, for one. And theres no standout super powerful cards. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Dec 16, 2020 |
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Dec 16, 2020 12:07
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Kaito is coming soon, so I expect a fair amount of Rank 8s with him.
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Dec 16, 2020 15:34
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Several levels still don't have any worthwhile Synchros to make out of them, so it's no big surprise to me they're dripfeeding Xyzs.
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Dec 16, 2020 16:19
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I think the second there are some good Rank 8s, BEWD’s days as a playable deck are numbered. Edit: Like, imagine Duel Links BEWD with access to Thunder End Dragon. Edit 2: I almost said "or Felgrand", but honestly, since you cant attack and then go into Felgrand M2, its presence might not be the end of the world. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Dec 16, 2020 |
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Dec 16, 2020 18:09
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Yu gi oh is fine we’re it is really. The only real problem card in the current format is VFD. Eldlich Zoo, and whatever plays Dogmatica are basically control decks. Set rotation on the other hand would kill the game instantly.
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Dec 17, 2020 00:18
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yu gi oh is fine we’re it is really. The only real problem card in the current format is VFD. Eldlich Zoo, and whatever plays Dogmatica are basically control decks. Neither of these things are true, but I'm curious why you think they are.
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Dec 17, 2020 01:34
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Because set rotation adds literally nothing to the game, the format is already dominated by the newer sets and power fluctuates defending on what’s banned which is supposed to be the whole point of set rotation. Even though this objectively does not happen with games with set rotation. As to the current format everyone whines about every format eternally so I literally could not care less about what dumb poo poo Yu gi oh players are on about now. As three months from now they will say they miss the format and you can bring back whatever deck was king poo poo. It happened with Zoo Spyral and Strikers. It will happen with dragon link and infernobleknight. Which gets to the point, Yu gi oh players may whine a lot but they actually have no idea what they want. Combo is to fast, control is to slow. I want interaction. I hate interaction that stops me. So on and so on.
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Dec 17, 2020 02:30
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Like right now two of the better decks are four years old with some newer support to pier them up and the format has slowed down enoigh that trap cards like Torrential Tribute and needle ceiling are seeing play
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Dec 17, 2020 02:51
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This might be a dumb question as all my YGO knowledge comes from lockdown youtube, but would Pokemon-style "you can only use one of any of this effect type per turn" (supporters, for those who play both) be a viable path for modulating card power?
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Dec 17, 2020 03:12
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CharlestheHammer posted:Because set rotation adds literally nothing to the game, the format is already dominated by the newer sets and power fluctuates defending on what’s banned which is supposed to be the whole point of set rotation. Even though this objectively does not happen with games with set rotation. I don't necessarily agree that the format is fine (I think if you banned VFD and Halq it would probably be okay, to be fair), but I can see your argument. You have not even tried to explain why set rotation would kill the game immediately.
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Dec 17, 2020 03:25
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King of Solomon posted:I don't necessarily agree that the format is fine (I think if you banned VFD and Halq it would probably be okay, to be fair), but I can see your argument. You have not even tried to explain why set rotation would kill the game immediately. Set rotation has killed a lot of games. People, on the whole, hate finding out when their cards are no longer tournament legal. Yugioh would have to change how it prints cards if they were to implement set rotation. A lot of rogue decks wouldn’t be legal anymore in set rotation. I don’t think it would kill the game but it would be a complete own goal when a sufficiently robust banlist solves a number of the same problems set rotation would
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Dec 17, 2020 03:31
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Some Goon posted:This might be a dumb question as all my YGO knowledge comes from lockdown youtube, but would Pokemon-style "you can only use one of any of this effect type per turn" (supporters, for those who play both) be a viable path for modulating card power? Not especially, no. The main criminals aren't exactly a wide variety of cards beating the same drum (for random example, decks that do nothing but banish cards constantly), those are usually very innocent. The issue is often single cards or combos that can run wild and do a bunch of things in a turn by themselves. Firewall Dragon is a good example; before the errata it just got in the OCG, it could do its effects as much as you wanted within a turn, which would often lead to that one player dominating both turns with no recourse. A lot of problem cards get tempered in erratas by putting in once-per-turn effects only on themselves. That generally does the job, both by slowing down the individual card and invalidating the effect of having more than one in play at a time, or bringing that one card back to do their thing again. Of course, that doesn't always work; some cards are just bonkers even when fired off once. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Dec 17, 2020 |
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Dec 17, 2020 03:34
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The closest equivalent to Pokemon's supporter system is the part where you can only normal summon once per turn. Yu-Gi-Oh's 'problem', if you see it that way, is that you can just stuff your deck with cards that don't care about that restriction - kind of like if Pokemon item cards were basically as strong as supporters. The trade-off is that the game is way brickier and actually doing exciting things is a lot harder if you are obliged to only summon one monster per turn, and every extra deck summoning type since fusion has been built around there being some degree of extra summoning (synchro doesn't function without some way of getting tuners and/or non-tuners out, xyz requires a minimum of 2 monsters if it isn't zoodiac specifically, [trif voice] PENDULUMS, and links are links). Changing this is hard, which is why the game is weird and/or 'sucks' right now. You want to avoid both 'I spent my entire hand to make two VFDs and now you don't get to play the game' and 'I set four omni-negates/interruptions and play a 1500 beater, pass', not to mention 'activate mystic mine, pass'.
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Dec 17, 2020 04:20
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Hence why I lean towards a hard reboot of the game being the best solution
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Dec 17, 2020 04:39
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ungulateman posted:The closest equivalent to Pokemon's supporter system is the part where you can only normal summon once per turn. Yu-Gi-Oh's 'problem', if you see it that way, is that you can just stuff your deck with cards that don't care about that restriction - kind of like if Pokemon item cards were basically as strong as supporters. It's less that I have a problem with the way modern Yugioh works (I don't) and more that the rate of power creep seems unsustainable, and the banlist just doesn't slow it down.
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Dec 17, 2020 04:45
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drrockso20 posted:Hence why I lean towards a hard reboot of the game being the best solution *gestures wildly at Rush Duels and Speed Duels again*
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Dec 17, 2020 04:48
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Vandar posted:*gestures wildly at Rush Duels and Speed Duels again* And again those mean jack poo poo in the long run
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Dec 17, 2020 04:52
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drrockso20 posted:And again those mean jack poo poo in the long run “Here are two reboots.” “No not like that.”
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Dec 17, 2020 05:04
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there's certainly a good argument to be made that speed duels isn't a good reboot, but rush duels are as good a reboot as anyone could hope for
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Dec 17, 2020 05:13
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The problem with a 'hard reboot of the game' is that you either run into the Speed Duels problem, or the set rotation problem writ large. Either the reboot doesn't take off and just becomes an evolutionary dead end with all its good ideas dying off, or you murder literally the entirety of the game before that point in the name of 'this time will be different'. Truth is, you already got your 'hard reboot' in the only form it could reasonably work: Duel Links. Essentially a rebuild of the game from the start onward, with both less useless and less broken cards (both by just not including the egregious ones in both cases, and by tweaking releases so that later weak cards could turn up in a meta where they don't suck), plus a few extra tricks that you couldn't do in a physical game. On top of that, its digital-only format means that it can't compete directly with the original game, which means we avoid both of those problems I mentioned, neither format can invalidate the other. ...poo poo, now I want to play Duel Links again. I upgraded phones and couldn't get it to run anymore in the early GX era. I gather they're in early Zexal now? How bad would it suck to jump back in right now?
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Dec 17, 2020 05:20
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if you're willing to put money into it, you can get 3 copies of the noble knight structure deck and have a competitive deck right away. the mega-banlist just went into effect a couple days ago and there's a pvp event going on currently which are always pretty good for gems
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Dec 17, 2020 05:37
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We advise new players to make Lunalights. Its all in 1 box, cheap and good.
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Dec 17, 2020 05:43
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Charles Bukowski posted:We advise new players to make Lunalights. Its all in 1 box, cheap and good. Edit: This is actually one of the vanishingly rare times in Duel Links where all the oppressive decks got hit but there’s no brand new overpowering one ready to stomp on everything unchallenged. Noble Knights are good, no doubt, but they’re not oppressive. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Dec 17, 2020 |
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Dec 17, 2020 06:42
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Aromages can be obtained through freebies and one small box, and they're a fairly competent archetype if you want a more control style.
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Dec 18, 2020 00:46
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Cleretic posted:The problem with a 'hard reboot of the game' is that you either run into the Speed Duels problem, or the set rotation problem writ large. Either the reboot doesn't take off and just becomes an evolutionary dead end with all its good ideas dying off, or you murder literally the entirety of the game before that point in the name of 'this time will be different'. Speed Duels was doing great for the first year. It was popular and Konami was supporting the hell out of it. The issue came at the start of this year when Konami just stopped supporting it for whatever reason, causing most of the big names in the community to leave and take a ton of people with them, while those of us that were left just stopped caring. If they had continued supporting it like they did last year, it would probably still be doing pretty well. Rush Duels will probably do pretty well when they leave Japan and come to the west.
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Dec 18, 2020 00:53
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Justin_Brett posted:Aromages can be obtained through freebies and one small box, and they're a fairly competent archetype if you want a more control style.
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Dec 18, 2020 01:32
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the problem with aromages and slow controls decks in general in duel links is people will hate you and you will hate yourself. the ladder climb is a big part of the game and it will be a lot less painful if you're playing a quick to win or quick to lose OTK deck. lunalights are a very good recommendation for that reason, because while that deck has a bit of a grind game where it's needed, it often can just make cat dancer send crimson fox attack twice for game like by all means bust out aromages or ritual beasts on occasion when a slow deck might be fun, such as against friends or in a player-run tournament, but if you're relying on it alone to climb or get gems from events you're going to be miserable
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Dec 18, 2020 05:12
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The best slow control deck is Blue Eyes because at the end of your opponent's turn, you can decide "gently caress it", turn Spirit Dragon into Azure Eyes, bring back that material BEWD and go ham with a 3k beatstick. Edit: Also it's the only deck that can still reliably run Champion's Vigilance now that DMs are nerfed. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Dec 18, 2020 |
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Dec 18, 2020 05:23
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