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euphronius posted:Bombadil and goldberry are 100% maia. its not even debatable . Eppur si muove...
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Dec 17, 2020 18:19
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euphronius posted:Bombadil and goldberry are 100% maia. its not even debatable .
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Dec 17, 2020 18:20
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i like tom bombadil because he defies any kind of nerdy classification scheme, it doesnt matter what he is, he's just a character and you cant classify him because god's creation is infinite
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Dec 17, 2020 18:21
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Tom Bombadil exists specifically to confound people who do things like argue about what the most powerful sword in middle earth is
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Dec 17, 2020 18:25
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sweet geek swag posted:Bombadil is definitely not God. His complete indifference to the world outside his territory pretty much confirms this. There is simply no way that Tolkien would portray God like he portrays Tom Bombadil. I'm all about the fact that Tom was just a joke JRRT put in to troll his kids, who had a "Dutch doll" with a hat and beard and bright clothes that they were terrified of and tried to flush down the toilet
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Dec 17, 2020 18:25
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He says he was on arda before Melkor . That doesn’t preclude him from being a maiar
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Dec 17, 2020 18:26
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CommonShore posted:Tom Bombadil exists specifically to confound people who do things like argue about what the most powerful sword in middle earth is
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Dec 17, 2020 18:28
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Shibawanko posted:i like tom bombadil because he defies any kind of nerdy classification scheme, it doesnt matter what he is, he's just a character and you cant classify him because god's creation is infinite No. It’s easy to classify him and Goldberry. When the book came out it was a mystery yes. Now we have the Valaquenta and it’s trivial to identify them. If you want to say that in the context of lord of the rings only Tom is a mystery ok. Goldberry is a nymph in that context. Tom is an ancient earth spirit.
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Dec 17, 2020 18:28
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euphronius posted:No. It’s easy to classify him and Goldberry. The Ring affects Maia. It was created, by a Maia, specifically to enhance his power. Gandalf is afraid to use it for exactly this reason. The ring does not affect Tom. Tom is not a Maia.
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Dec 17, 2020 18:31
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It affects some Maia. That’s all you shown. It obviously doesn’t affect all of them since Tom and Goldberry weren’t affected. Or effected whatever. I can’t remember.
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Dec 17, 2020 18:34
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my point is not that he was god, just Maybe God to go along with the whole mystique
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Dec 17, 2020 18:35
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In the books only context yeah it is as you say. Mysterious.
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Dec 17, 2020 18:36
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Thank god we got the Valaquenta, now we can definitively say that Tom Bombadil is a 3rd rank Maiar, probably earth-type, which means he's weak to water attacks but luckily Goldberry is a water-type to really round out the party. Says here he gets a +7 on Will checks, too.
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Dec 17, 2020 18:41
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If you want to say the elves didn’t know everything and were confused when they wrote the valaquenta and Tom and Goldberry fit some other thing not covered by or disclosed to the elves then fine but that opens a whole can of worms
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Dec 17, 2020 18:42
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Shibawanko posted:i like tom bombadil because he defies any kind of nerdy classification scheme, it doesnt matter what he is, he's just a character and you cant classify him because god's creation is infinite
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Dec 17, 2020 18:43
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euphronius posted:It affects some Maia. That’s all you shown. It obviously doesn’t affect all of them since Tom and Goldberry weren’t affected. Your exact words were that it wasn't debatable. Many people have debated you. It absolutely is debatable. And for the record, treating your own unproven argument as a truism is bullshit.
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Dec 17, 2020 18:43
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Tom's power level is simply higher than Sauron's.
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Dec 17, 2020 18:45
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sweet geek swag posted:Your exact words were that it wasn't debatable. Many people have debated you. It absolutely is debatable. No one has shown my argument is wrong. Tom and Goldberry are maiar if you include the valaquenta with LOTR No one has shown that is wrong
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Dec 17, 2020 18:45
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euphronius posted:No one has shown my argument is wrong. Tom and Goldberry are maiar if you include the valaquenta with LOTR Your argument is an appeal to authority. You aren't showing how the Valaquenta proves anything. You are just claiming it does with absolutely no proof.
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Dec 17, 2020 18:52
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sweet geek swag posted:Your argument is an appeal to authority. You aren't showing how the Valaquenta proves anything. You are just claiming it does with absolutely no proof. I assume people have read the valaquenta but ok if you have not the All Father creates angels before he creates world. The mightiest Of these are the Valar and the lesser ones are the maiar. The elves know all the valar and can name them but not all the maiar . Anyway after the All Father created the Angels and showed them a large portion of the future of the world, he actually created the world and the valar and the maiar then go into the world and become part of it and are bound to it and have the task of actually creating it in line with what they think the future should be. Most of the valar and the maiar then create the world to prepare it for the children of the All Father : elves and men. There are “evil” angels too lead by Melkor Tom and goldberry are part of the maiar that entered the world at the beginning . The are not elves or men, so they must be angels. They are not valar since they are not named by the elves in the valaquenta. All that is left is maiar. They never went to Valinor tho. If you don’t know what Valinor is let me know. They remained in Middle earth since the beginning (goldberry comes a little later I think but no one cares about her most of the time so I’m a little rusty on her .). : They are quite akin to Melian honestly if you ask me euphronius fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Dec 17, 2020 |
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Dec 17, 2020 18:58
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Edit Dp
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Dec 17, 2020 19:01
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yeah but then "maiar" is just a catchall for anything that isnt a vala but all the same i dont think tom bombadil is the same kind of creature as gandalf or something, he seems completely different from any other maiar shown and doesnt obey their rules, nobody at rivendell seems to know what his deal is either, including gandalf, he also never lived in valinor presumably the valaquenta is an elf text from the second age and like most of the silmarillion i don't think it's supposed to be gospel, rather part of a set of myths
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Dec 17, 2020 19:02
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We don’t see many maiar up close in lotr - balrog - 3 wizards - the Eagle lord - the were wolves - Tom and Goldberry Am I missing some ?
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Dec 17, 2020 19:05
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Sauron was never in Valinor afaict. Morgoth was captured and brought there.
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Dec 17, 2020 19:07
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euphronius posted:I assume people have read the valaquenta but ok if you have not the All Father creates angels before he creates world. The mightiest Of these are the Valar and the lesser ones are the maiar. The elves know all the valar and can name them but not all the maiar . Anyway after the All Father created the Angels and showed them a large portion of the future of the world, he actually created the world and the valar and the maiar then go to the world and become part of it and are bound to it. Most of the valar and the maiar then create the world to prepare it for the children of the All Father : elves and men. There are “evil” angels too lead by Melkor How do you know that Tom and Goldberry are Maia? Where does it say that? The Valaquenta does not say that, you are just assuming it.
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Dec 17, 2020 19:09
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euphronius posted:We don’t see many maiar up close in lotr Fangorn?
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Dec 17, 2020 19:09
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Shibawanko posted:
I admitted that above If the valaquenta is substantially wrong then yeah 
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Dec 17, 2020 19:09
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sweet geek swag posted:How do you know that Tom and Goldberry are Maia? Where does it say that? The Valaquenta does not say that, you are just assuming it. It’s called process of elimination. I showed my work.
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Dec 17, 2020 19:10
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I am on team "Valaquenta is (Bilbo's translation of) Elf poetry and is biased and incomplete". Eä is much larger than even the high elves know.
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Dec 17, 2020 19:11
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Hasselblad posted:Fangorn? Children of Yavanna created by Eru when she got jealous of the dwarves created by Aulë
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Dec 17, 2020 19:12
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Omnomnomnivore posted:I am on team "Valaquenta is (Bilbo's translation of) Elf poetry and is biased and incomplete". Eä is much larger than even the high elves know. Fair enough.
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Dec 17, 2020 19:13
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euphronius posted:We don’t see many maiar up close in lotr quote:But true 'rational' creatures, 'speaking peoples', are all of human / 'humanoid' form. Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwe. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar. (...) In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fëa. (...) The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fëar. In summary I don't think it's useful to say "it speaks but it isn't Elf, Man, Hobbit, or Orc, therefore it's a Maia". Frankly it's kinda loving boring if you have dragons, talking eagles, intelligent hounds, werewolves, etc. but actually they're all just the same sort of spirits that took various shapes. Wizards and Balrogs as Maiar, yeah that makes sense and also makes Gandalf vs Durin's Bane better. But taking every single other oddity in the world and whittling it down until it fits into one of the handful of Acceptable Categories isn't a lot of fun.
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Dec 17, 2020 19:13
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Pham Nuwen posted:Thank god we got the Valaquenta, now we can definitively say that Tom Bombadil is a 3rd rank Maiar, probably earth-type, which means he's weak to water attacks but luckily Goldberry is a water-type to really round out the party. Says here he gets a +7 on Will checks, too.
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Dec 17, 2020 19:19
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To come up with "true" divisions and classifications for every being in Tolkein is uninteresting and overall impossible because Tolkein's works aren't internally consistent or coherent. He was just a dude who made some stories, and the fact of his world is simply the text that's on the page. There's no statement of what Bombadil "really" is, and so the truth of the situation is that he's ambiguous. Besides that type of reading is far less interesting that reflecting on what he symbolizes from a storytelling perspective. I see him personifying the indifference of the natural world to the mechanisms of the great and the powerful. Sometimes that natural world can delight and provide. It can even be musical and playful. In other cases it can threaten and menace. But it doesn't give a poo poo about its immediate continued existance, which extends far beyond the horizons of memory, myth, and legend. You can't rely on it to help you or your cause, even if your interests are aligned, because it will just go back to being. This is really just on a moment's reflection anyway.
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Dec 17, 2020 19:34
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Tom's always really bothered me because I feel like while him being unexplained and perhaps unexplainable is cool and fine, this coupled with his complete immunity to the ring - itself already a huge problem in my opinion - kind of is a big narrative problem that is made all the worse by how early in the story it comes up. The central premise and threat around which the narrative turns is the idea that the Ring is insurmountable as a temptation; no one no matter how pure or good can long resist its allure or wield it for good. Gandalf and Galadriel, powerful and good beings, would become monstrous tyrants were they to wield it. The Ring *must* be destroyed because no one could be trusted to keep it secret, keep it safe. Except we're barely out of Hobbiton and we've just run into some weirdo in the woods who is completely and utterly immune to the Ring. Literally the first guy we run into who isn't a Hobbit completely negates the central premise on which the conflict/story stands. And one could of course say/argue that Bombadil is unique and so looking around for another being like him to entrust the Ring to would be pointless, but that's not true because we can't say anything like that about Bombadil because literally nothing about him is ever explained. For all we know every forest in the world has a Bombadil if you look hard enough. Just because he is wildly irresponsible and would lose the Ring doesn't mean the next dancing jackass two forests down would. I mean, I still love the books, and the greater Legendarium, don't get me wrong, but I've just always felt that Bombadil, at least how he's handled and introduced, was a mistake. But in concept, he's cool and fun. Hey ho.
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Dec 17, 2020 19:38
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Tom's always really bothered me because I feel like while him being unexplained and perhaps unexplainable is cool and fine, this coupled with his complete immunity to the ring - itself already a huge problem in my opinion - kind of is a big narrative problem that is made all the worse by how early in the story it comes up. I think Tom Bombadil is more of a force or an idea than an actual person, which is why this doesn't bother me. He doesn't have a will to bend. He just is. And that sort of eternal 'is' is just something that is essentially indefinable and magical. Tom Bombadil isn't a person or even a thing. He is something else, something beyond description, and that sort of wonder is what makes the character work.
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Dec 17, 2020 19:45
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Tom's always really bothered me because I feel like while him being unexplained and perhaps unexplainable is cool and fine, this coupled with his complete immunity to the ring - itself already a huge problem in my opinion - kind of is a big narrative problem that is made all the worse by how early in the story it comes up. I took it as Tom is immune to the ring because he doesn't care about power; its unimportant to him. He's got his little plot of land and his Goldberry what the hell does he want with the ability to turn invisible and command armies and poo poo. He's good. Gandalf goes into why they can't entrust Tom with the Ring: he doesn't get why everyone cares so much, so if like everyone on the planet begged him to take it he would, mystified, like a dog with a bar of gold, and he'd lose it (just because the Ring doesn't have power over him doesn't mean it doesn't have power, it'd get lost pretty easily) because its just not important. In Short, Tom, for his utter lack of desire for anything he doesn't already have, is obviously Buddha. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
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Dec 17, 2020 20:09
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Oracle posted:In Short, Tom, for his utter lack of desire for anything he doesn't already have, is obviously Buddha. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
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Dec 17, 2020 20:14
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When you get to the part of 'Fellowship' where they go into Moria, does anyone else feel like Tolkien lays the foreshadowing on pretty drat thick that Gandalf is going to die in there? I mean, obviously, but he has various characters as much as state it outright what feels like half a dozen times.
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Dec 17, 2020 20:19
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I'd be interested in the thoughts of anyone who came to LotR for the first time as an adult; I have no way of guessing because I was a kid and then my opinion is tainted because I've always known how it ends.
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Dec 17, 2020 20:28
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