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So the line is that Georgiou is now a good person because her genetic disposition and culture are inherently evil, so she’s not responsible for her actions? And because she’s trying super hard to change, she’s forgivable for killing planets? And she’ll now fit in as an antihero in the 23/24th centuries? It is very Vegeta.
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Dec 19, 2020 02:46
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Grand Fromage posted:The best MU eps are the Enterprise ones, where it's just pure ham and everyone's clearly having a ton of fun, and the DS9 one with Quark and Rom where Rom spends the whole time talking about how the MU doesn't make sense. DS9 knows EXACTLY what the Mirror Universe is for and clearly just had fun picking out who was gonna get to play villains for it. Also the whole "Terrans are inherently evil" thing undercuts the very premise of the MU when a lot of the insinuations are they're exactly the same people just with different upbringings. It's half the fun of it and how it actually acts as a reflection of the prime counterparts, where a simple change in circumstance alters who they fundamentally were.
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Dec 19, 2020 03:32
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I would still be depressed if i was her. Her empire is unreformable and doomed. She knows that know. No matter what Terra will fall and humanity will be enslaved. She Killed and tortured billions and it was all for nothing. Couldn't even set the empire on a better course. Why go on after learning the depth of your failure like that?
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Dec 19, 2020 03:34
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Baudolino posted:I would still be depressed if i was her. Her empire is unreformable and doomed. She knows that know. No matter what Terra will fall and humanity will be enslaved. She Killed and tortured billions and it was all for nothing. Couldn't even set the empire on a better course. Why go on after learning the depth of your failure like that? Another actually interesting story element teased this season that didn't go anywhere at all. Discovery!
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Dec 19, 2020 03:42
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Neddy Seagoon posted:DS9 knows EXACTLY what the Mirror Universe is for and clearly just had fun picking out who was gonna get to play villains for it. Honestly I didn't like the DS9 MU all that much, but I did appreciate that it just accepted that yeah, this is dumb, we're having fun. Also O'Brien being the same guy in both universes was great. His fundamental O'Brien-ness cannot be changed. I agree about the inherent evil thing too. I always thought the point of the original MU episode was that this is what we could be if we made the wrong choices. Star Trek is showing what humanity could be if we chose the better path. The MU is still humanity and what we are, but if we choose to give in to our baser instincts instead of rising above them. I also really hate the Disco poo poo of implying the Terran Empire is just the future Roman Empire but you can go read 2000 pages of that in A/T if you care. 
Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Dec 19, 2020 |
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Dec 19, 2020 04:04
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Combat Pretzel posted:The mirror universe is loving stupid. Like any scientific and industrial development can occur among the constant backstabbing. It shouldn't even have gotten to the state presented, after the split. Enterprise's Mirror Universe episode basically states that Earth raided the Vulcans to get up to their level by the ENT era and then jumped ahead to TOS-level tech by getting their hands on the Defiant. The fact they're still at that level in TOS despite those jumps implies they're largely developmentally stagnated otherwise.
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Dec 19, 2020 04:28
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Grand Fromage posted:Also O'Brien being the same guy in both universes was great. His fundamental O'Brien-ness cannot be changed. its important, o'brien is supposed to be the everyman of star trek, so having him be anything other than a representative of what a baseline terran could be would not be good
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Dec 19, 2020 04:30
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sticklefifer posted:History would disagree. Wartime typically breeds technological advancement, cruel oligarchy exploiting slave labor has built empires, and extreme fascism is historically efficient if nothing else. If people are going to call her Space Hitler, don't just stop the analogy at the killing lots of people. The MU lacks morality, not efficiency. Just for the record, fascism is pretty historically inefficient. Anyway, I agree with the idea that the mirror universe isn't supposed to make sense. Mirror, Mirror is a morality tale. Kirk beams down to a planet to buy dilithium crystals from a race of extreme pacifists who won't sell them to him, and tell him, "Of course, you could just take them. We won't fight.", and Kirk answers, "Right, but we're not like that." Then it zaps him to a universe where they are like that.
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Dec 19, 2020 05:59
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sticklefifer posted:History would disagree. Wartime typically breeds technological advancement, cruel oligarchy exploiting slave labor has built empires, and extreme fascism is historically efficient if nothing else. If people are going to call her Space Hitler, don't just stop the analogy at the killing lots of people. The MU lacks morality, not efficiency. Where was extreme fascism efficient historically?
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Dec 19, 2020 06:17
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Grand Fromage posted:I also really hate the Disco poo poo of implying the Terran Empire is just the future Roman Empire but you can go read 2000 pages of that in A/T if you care. That is 100% window dressing. After Constantinople fell, the Russians claimed at they were 3rd Rome, Tsar for example is Russian for Caeser. The Germans used Kaiser for the same reason. Rome is cool and good if you want to pretend you're a good empire. Epicurius posted:Just for the record, fascism is pretty historically inefficient. This is very true. They're all built on a house of cards, and one of the ways they keep it from falling is constant wars and expansion. Using the resources of others to keep your economy going. Nazi Germany was built on a huge amount of debt and they needed to take the wealth of Europe and Russia to dig themselves out of their hole. Italy was even worse. The only things Disco got right about the MU is everyone hams it up being as cartoonishly evil as possible and its way, way hornier.
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Dec 19, 2020 06:24
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Fascists always claimed they were efficient, but they weren't. The only thing they were good at was documenting every crime against humanity they committed. Maybe they thought that writing something down made it efficient. Fascism is characterized by incompetent idiots thinking they are doing something. They are usually more interested in hearing what they want to hear, rather than the truth. One way you can see this is the Amerika Bomber. The idea was to create a bomber that was capable of flying from Europe to the US to drop bombs on whatever city and then return. The various plane manufacturers kept coming up with all these wackadoodle designs and the Nazis kept eating it up because they thought it meant they would be able to bomb the US directly. It never occurred to them that the most realistic of these plans were coming out at the end of the war when they had no resources and no territory and the most realistic design's range pretty much required the planes to launch from the very western edge of France. By this time, the Allies were already pushing into Germany. Meanwhile, all the engineers were trying to make sure that they were located in a place that would be overtaken by the Americans rather than the Russians.
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Dec 19, 2020 06:32
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The only way the mirror universe would actually make sense is if it spawned into existence when an incursion happened from the prime universe and then despawned once the incursion was over, only to spawn again with an updated skew of the prime universe when the next incursion occurred.
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Dec 19, 2020 06:39
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MikeJF posted:Enterprise's Mirror Universe episode basically states that Earth raided the Vulcans to get up to their level by the ENT era and then jumped ahead to TOS-level tech by getting their hands on the Defiant. The fact they're still at that level in TOS despite those jumps implies they're largely developmentally stagnated otherwise. Also it's clear that what development there was post-In A Mirror, Darkly, was mostly focused at the top of the social hierarchy. The ISS Charon far outstrips anything seen in even TNG, and surprise surprise it was the veritable flying imperial palace. So when that got blow up they were back to mostly TOS-level tech with no way to replicate the advances reserved for the Emperor. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Dec 19, 2020 |
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Dec 19, 2020 06:41
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socialsecurity posted:Where was extreme fascism efficient historically? Fashion.
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Dec 19, 2020 06:42
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twistedmentat posted:That is 100% window dressing. After Constantinople fell, the Russians claimed at they were 3rd Rome, Tsar for example is Russian for Caeser. The Germans used Kaiser for the same reason. Rome is cool and good if you want to pretend you're a good empire. lol I think the person who has spent over 11 years leading the A/T Rome threads knows the origins of Tsar and Kaiser
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Dec 19, 2020 06:42
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:The only way the mirror universe would actually make sense is if it spawned into existence when an incursion happened from the prime universe and then despawned once the incursion was over, only to spawn again with an updated skew of the prime universe when the next incursion occurred. I honestly really like that theory. Especially with how it seems to radiate outward and backfill from whatever ship/entity is doing the crossover. It's like the holodeck only it's a whole universe.
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Dec 19, 2020 06:44
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The_Doctor posted:You vaguely asked for it, I made it! (link to store if you click the pic) woot
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Dec 19, 2020 06:48
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:lol I think the person who has spent over 11 years leading the A/T Rome threads knows the origins of Tsar and Kaiser Good lord you're not exaggerating I've spent eleven years posting about Romans. Christ. I only got to teach my Roman history course for a year.
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Dec 19, 2020 06:54
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Grand Fromage posted:Good lord you're not exaggerating I've spent eleven years posting about Romans. Christ. I only got to teach my Roman history course for a year. I spent a fair amount of time reading through a portion of them back in 2013 or 2014, and every few years I stumble back upon the thread and I find it comforting that as the rest of the world spirals into insanity you're still posting away about Rome in a stable little corner of the SA forums.
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Dec 19, 2020 07:00
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I know I said "stop posting Robert Meyer Burnett tweets", but https://twitter.com/BurnettRM/status/1339506697199472642 I guess the guy is going to kill himself because he was mad at a TV show. Welp.
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Dec 19, 2020 07:08
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Poor Robert, thought of a TV show and died.
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Dec 19, 2020 07:12
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:The only way the mirror universe would actually make sense is if it spawned into existence when an incursion happened from the prime universe and then despawned once the incursion was over, only to spawn again with an updated skew of the prime universe when the next incursion occurred. If they always despawn it would make the mirror universe even more pointless though. Might as well go eat a Kelpian while you are there because it isn't a real Kelpian and he'll stop existing soon anyway. Wouldn't even need to despawn. There could be infinite mirror universes. Maybe there's one where mirror Spock managed to reform the empire successfully and things generally got better. They said evil G's dimension was getting farther away from prime. Maybe that always happens, the multiverse is constantly expanding. There was that one TNG episode where Worf was travelling through alternate dimensions. Or that one where like 400 copies of the Enterprise all wound up in one spot and one Riker didn't want to go home because the Borg were everywhere. Or the one where Wesley accidently trapped his mom in a shrinking warp bubble alternate reality. Or the one Q made where Picard was a loser science officer. Dudes like Carl or Q can see them all and travel between them or even spin up a new one. Human almost have that ability, but we usually gently caress it up and accidently create another BDSM universe. Facebook Aunt fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Dec 19, 2020 |
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Dec 19, 2020 07:13
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Cojawfee posted:Poor Robert, thought of a TV show and died. Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, his was the most... stupid.
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Dec 19, 2020 07:16
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nine-gear crow posted:https://twitter.com/BurnettRM/status/1339506697199472642 Also he doesn't know what a "last will and testament" is.
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Dec 19, 2020 07:16
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Tiggum posted:Also he doesn't know what a "last will and testament" is. I hereby bequeath my pile of unrealized lawsuit-riddled Star Trek fan films to Doomcock, and Doomcock's Nazi BitChute alt account...
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Dec 19, 2020 07:20
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nine-gear crow posted:I know I said "stop posting Robert Meyer Burnett tweets", but Love to see chuds constantly out themselves as the real “snowflakes” just because certain pieces of media dare to exist
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Dec 19, 2020 07:32
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:I spent a fair amount of time reading through a portion of them back in 2013 or 2014, and every few years I stumble back upon the thread and I find it comforting that as the rest of the world spirals into insanity you're still posting away about Rome in a stable little corner of the SA forums. I have to do something with the degree I paid $100,000 for
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Dec 19, 2020 07:38
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Neddy Seagoon posted:DS9 knows EXACTLY what the Mirror Universe is for and clearly just had fun picking out who was gonna get to play villains for it. Yeah that makes sense. DS9 is one of my favorite shows but if you take away the MU eps nothing is lost. The stakes always felt low and were a distraction from advancing the plot. Especially as we never got the planned ep taking place entirely in Quarks. That would have been great. Heck, Garak reading a phone book for an hour would top the 3 seasons of Discovery. “A. Aaronson? Oh my, I recall he was a baker for the Tholian ambassador...”
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Dec 19, 2020 07:47
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Its pretty telling that the only people who look like they are enjoying themselves in the Disco MU episodes are the long term extras in the bridge crew, because they actually get stuff to do. Also laughed at Staments's "I haven't seen you in forever" to tig, I think its pretty clear whichever staff writer was tagged to write these utterly pointless filler scenes in engineering has completely stopped giving a gently caress.
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Dec 19, 2020 07:58
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no reno is good by me. ask carl to send her back to her loving time and comet or whatever so i dont have to see her again
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Dec 19, 2020 08:43
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Facebook Aunt posted:Dudes like Carl or Q can see them all and travel between them or even spin up a new one. Human almost have that ability, but we usually gently caress it up and accidently create another BDSM universe. Sure, "accidentally"
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Dec 19, 2020 08:56
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Verviticus posted:no reno is good by me. ask carl to send her back to her loving time and comet or whatever so i dont have to see her again carl turns to michael. "Anyone else you want to fling across time and space?" "Actually I have a list"
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Dec 19, 2020 08:59
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Alchenar posted:carl turns to michael. "Anyone else you want to fling across time and space?" The season finale is just an hour of characters lined up at the Guardian taking turns telling Michael how great and important she is before she tearfully kicks them in the butt through the vortex.
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Dec 19, 2020 09:07
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Actually noticed something with Michael the past episode; You know how you can tell she's different from Prime-Burnham? She does dramatic low-angle neck-tilting!
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Dec 19, 2020 09:10
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Minor nitpick, but the background computer displays don't appear to have the updated Discovery on them.
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Dec 19, 2020 09:11
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This is a 13 episode show where 3 of the episodes have had no narrative purpose but to get rid of actors.
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Dec 19, 2020 09:38
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I don't understand why that was a two-parter, surely that could have been done in one.
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Dec 19, 2020 09:41
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I'm just glad she's gone. Her presence has been insanely awkward since she "joined" the crew. Making her the empress was a bad choice. It'd be forgivable if she was a regular Mirror denizen, but escalating her to a genocidal dictator and then having to walk it back just didn't work. It probably would've been fine if she was like MU Sisko, a rough and tumble pirate type.
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Dec 19, 2020 10:15
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well why not posted:I'm just glad she's gone. Her presence has been insanely awkward since she "joined" the crew. Making her the empress was a bad choice. It'd be forgivable if she was a regular Mirror denizen, but escalating her to a genocidal dictator and then having to walk it back just didn't work. Making her the emperor was a good choice for a shocking reveal back in series one (assuming that's what you're aiming for as a writer), it's just adding her to the crew long-term made it an elephant in the room they couldn't really address. And I think they did that in response to people pointing out they'd completely wasted Michelle Yeoh. I think I've said earlier in the thread that I think wait Fuller was aiming for was not the actual mirror universe but one where Michael didn't mutiny and Georgiou didn't die - a sort of 'road not taken' - although given how events were presented at the Battle of the Binary Stars I'm not 100% sure how that would have actually played out. If you assume that Captain Georgiou from that timeline comes back to the prime timeline with them for whatever reason, then having her join the crew (presumably as the new captain - I think Lorca would just be written out as having gone too far from his experiences) wouldn't be a problem.
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Dec 19, 2020 10:46
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Senor Tron posted:Minor nitpick, but the background computer displays don't appear to have the updated Discovery on them. In season 1, the bridge displays had the ugly nacelles forward design from that initial trailer, so there’s precedent. I’m guessing it’s a case of film first, work out the updated designs in post. 
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Dec 19, 2020 10:57
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