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I say let's leave ignoring risks, cutting corners and pushing forward heedlessly to the capitalists. We should do something like cordoning off a portion of the landing facilities setting up a fully sealed and self-contained quarantine bubble, and while the crew undergoes testing and observation the ship itself should undergo the strongest disinfecting routine we can muster, the kind where if they don't have to repair or replace half the interior afterwards it clearly wasn't strong enough. There are so many unknowns in this scenario, we really can't afford to take unnecessary risks while handling this. In fact, let's make it official: Operation Lifeline; Quarantine Addendum: If one or both of the ships have to land and resupply the abductees, they are to return to Earth best possible speed and undergo extensive quarantine and disinfectant procedures, rendering both ship and crew unavailable for at minimum one month.
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Dec 21, 2020 03:50
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Couldn't we just check the known alien samples we have for bio compatibility with our own biosphere and then go from there?
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Dec 21, 2020 04:45
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Telsa Cola posted:Couldn't we just check the known alien samples we have for bio compatibility with our own biosphere and then go from there? So far the only alien samples we have are Roswell Specimens E-H, which have a... distressing biological similarity to humans, at least in terms of anatomy. No hemoglobin, but that's not too unusual in the mundane terrestrial animal kingdom, lizards have green blood. Also the fact the Face facility seems to have an atmosphere and temp range amenable to humans might mean it's there for the abductee's benefit, OR it means the "Martians" naturally prefer a similar environment to us and it just happens to be tolerable to the human squatters as well. Unless their underlying biochemistry is utterly novel and their similarities to earth life are wholy superficial, cross-species pathogen transfer seems like a possibility. The Proton being as heavily decontaminated and quarantined as is being suggested seems excessive, but we must admit a reverse War of the Worlds scenario is possible. Hence keeping the abductees on Mars until they get a thorough examination.
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Dec 21, 2020 21:23
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Asterite34 posted:So far the only alien samples we have are Roswell Specimens E-H, which have a... distressing biological similarity to humans, at least in terms of anatomy. No hemoglobin, but that's not too unusual in the mundane terrestrial animal kingdom, lizards have green blood. Also the fact the Face facility seems to have an atmosphere and temp range amenable to humans might mean it's there for the abductee's benefit, OR it means the "Martians" naturally prefer a similar environment to us and it just happens to be tolerable to the human squatters as well. Unless their underlying biochemistry is utterly novel and their similarities to earth life are wholy superficial, cross-species pathogen transfer seems like a possibility. The Proton being as heavily decontaminated and quarantined as is being suggested seems excessive, but we must admit a reverse War of the Worlds scenario is possible. Hence keeping the abductees on Mars until they get a thorough examination. Only very, very few species of lizards have green blood and it's a byproduct of their hemoglobin breakdown, the lizards just concentrate the resulting chemical in their bodies and are resisitant to the toxic effects. A better example would be horseshoe crabs, octopi, etc which uses hemocyanin and is thus blue. I'm willing to bet that a study has been done in universe about biological compatiblity because appearances don't really mean a whole lot. I urge the relevant authorities to make this information accesible for member review. The living conditions of the Mars survivors can be easily explained by the fact that it appears to be a human storage facility so they are set for human tolerances in the event of them waking up, accidents, etc. Unless the the biological similarity is as functionally close to us as we are to other mammals and avians, the probability of catching a xenodisease is hilariously small. You would have better chances of catching a disease from a thermal vent worm*. *Parasites non withstanding. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Dec 21, 2020 |
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Dec 21, 2020 21:42
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Telsa Cola posted:Only very, very few species of lizards have green blood and it's a byproduct of their hemoglobin breakdown, the lizards just concentrate the resulting chemical in their bodies and are resisitant to the toxic effects. A better example would be horseshoe crabs, octopi, etc which uses hemocyanin and is thus blue. shudders Peter Wattsly
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Dec 21, 2020 21:58
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sebmojo posted:shudders Peter Wattsly Blindsight is a good example because all appearances were deceiving. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Dec 21, 2020 |
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Dec 21, 2020 22:05
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Well, better safe than sorry I say, and I find it unlikely we'll suddenly urgently need Proton-B while it's undergoing quarantine. Hell, I'd say it's more likely they'll trigger some kind of defense system by landing near to or walking into the alien ruins, but that possibility won't stop us from making the attempt if the abductees end up running out of food before we can get them out of there.
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Dec 22, 2020 01:51
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Telsa Cola posted:Blindsight is a good example because all appearances were deceiving. i was thinking of starfish, and the brutal civilisation ending pandemic that came out of an underwater vent
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Dec 22, 2020 02:05
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You know, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who can't stand Peter Watts.
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Dec 22, 2020 02:14
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Antilles posted:Hell, I'd say it's more likely they'll trigger some kind of defense system by landing near to or walking into the alien ruins, but that possibility won't stop us from making the attempt if the abductees end up running out of food before we can get them out of there. Truthfully this I'm more worried about. Or more precisely, that we'll accidentally wake up more sleepers. Remember, the Cyclops crew waking up coincides with our first close flyby of the ruins, there might be some sort of proximity alarm (not active radar, the EM scan would have picked that up, but some passive sensor of some kind) that detected us and automatically cracked open 300-some cryopods. WHY the system would be set up like this I have no idea, and we won't know if this is the case until we send something close. And even if it is the case, it's not like we're NOT gonna send ships there anyway.
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Dec 22, 2020 02:15
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NewMars posted:You know, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who can't stand Peter Watts. His novels sound a lot better as thought experiments than actual entertaing prose. Also the torture's not great. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Dec 22, 2020 |
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Dec 22, 2020 02:16
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NewMars posted:You know, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who can't stand Peter Watts. Crazycryodude posted:His novels sound a lot better as thought experiments than actual entertaing prose. I find for me I can also only take so much cynical bleakness at a time.
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Dec 22, 2020 02:19
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Antilles posted:Well, better safe than sorry I say, and I find it unlikely we'll suddenly urgently need Proton-B while it's undergoing quarantine. Hell, I'd say it's more likely they'll trigger some kind of defense system by landing near to or walking into the alien ruins, but that possibility won't stop us from making the attempt if the abductees end up running out of food before we can get them out of there. I mean we should absolutely practice proper quarantine protocol for the health of both sides with screening and whatever. The chance of getting a weird alien disease is just pretty drat low unless its deliberately introduced/engineered. That being said assuming the people gathering happened throughout time there is the high chance that individuals will have diseases we don't have resistance for and vice versa Watts is okay/good, I think I personally somewhat soured to him because at this point he's somewhat overrated/exposed. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Dec 22, 2020 |
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Dec 22, 2020 02:23
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I think the deets of the quarantine should be left to the experts rather than us delegates, which ooc means that as long as we say we are taking all known precautions there's no need to micromanage the rescue from the assembly
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Dec 22, 2020 02:34
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Pacho posted:I think the deets of the quarantine should be left to the experts rather than us delegates, which ooc means that as long as we say we are taking all known precautions there's no need to micromanage the rescue from the assembly Eh, no harm in letting them know we take this VERY seriously and that they can and should aim high for this one. Hell, I've no idea what quarantine procedures are available to us, neither what was available at the time and what our TNE-related research has enabled for us in-game.
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Dec 22, 2020 02:41
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Pacho posted:I think the deets of the quarantine should be left to the experts rather than us delegates, which ooc means that as long as we say we are taking all known precautions there's no need to micromanage the rescue from the assembly Fair point, no one here in the People's Congress is (as far as I know) an infectious disease expert, best leave it to the trained professionals and just focus on policy priorities. As long as they're being properly quarantined to avoid any Thing shapeshifters or, more likely, a Spanish Flu outbreak. These guys ARE from 1918 after all.
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Dec 22, 2020 02:48
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Crazycryodude posted:His novels sound a lot better as thought experiments than actual entertaing prose. You forgot the incest.
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Dec 22, 2020 04:41
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Asterite34 posted:Fair point, no one here in the People's Congress is (as far as I know) an infectious disease expert, best leave it to the trained professionals and just focus on policy priorities. As long as they're being properly quarantined to avoid any Thing shapeshifters or, more likely, a Spanish Flu outbreak. These guys ARE from 1918 after all. Fortunately the risk of that threat is minimal at this stage. The 337 who are awake have been so for a year, and the flu would have gone through that population if any of them had it. If more people wake up there could be a lot more pathogens the survivors, and us, could be exposed to.
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Dec 22, 2020 04:59
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Need I remind delegates that we've ALSO had some pandemics since they left. A quarantine is for everyone's safety. That said, locking them in a base on a distant world seems unneessarily cruel. Thus we propose the Bring them Home act. Whereby we locate a suitable island for quarantining the populace of martian abductees ON EARTH, and prepare a vaccination schedule and debriefing facilities to bring them up to speed and prepare for their reintegration into society. And in the meantime we will attempt a landing and food delivery with one of the observation craft. While we'd love to take the full time for a 5 year plan to get them off, it sounds like they don't have those kind of reserves. And it would be excellent publicity for us to be able to bring the rescuees back to Earth, rather than subjecting them to study in another alien lab. All our fancy TN tech would look alien to us 10 years ago, so to someone from the First World War, well. They've just spent a year in an alien laboratory. Lets not subject them to the same experience again.
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Dec 22, 2020 10:24
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Veloxyll posted:Need I remind delegates that we've ALSO had some pandemics since they left. A quarantine is for everyone's safety. The Delmarva Commonality also seconds this motion, on principle if nothing else.
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Dec 24, 2020 22:19
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A counter-proposal: They don't set one foot on planet Earth until it's verified they all don't have a Martian mind-control chip in their brains and hollow molars full of mega-anthrax in their jaws. Unlikely, perhaps even crazy? Yes, I'll freely admit, realistically it's more quarantining for alien drywall mold or whatever. But this is ALIENS we're talking about, we can't assume anything, it's all on the table. The "principle" is to act responsibly in the best interests of everyone we are responsible for, not what gets "good publicity" like it's a Coca Cola ad. They're Navy men, they're used to isolated deployments, they can survive another month or two on Mars without seeing their dead-by-now-anyway families or whatever.
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Dec 25, 2020 01:52
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I think most of them would understand and even agree that they will need a thorough debriefing and physical before repatriation to Earth. We don't need some martian Thing imitating PurpleXVI.
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Dec 25, 2020 02:02
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Asterite34 posted:A counter-proposal: They don't set one foot on planet Earth until it's verified they all don't have a Martian mind-control chip in their brains and hollow molars full of mega-anthrax in their jaws. Unlikely, perhaps even crazy? Yes, I'll freely admit, realistically it's more quarantining for alien drywall mold or whatever. But this is ALIENS we're talking about, we can't assume anything, it's all on the table. The "principle" is to act responsibly in the best interests of everyone we are responsible for, not what gets "good publicity" like it's a Coca Cola ad. They're Navy men, they're used to isolated deployments, they can survive another month or two on Mars without seeing their dead-by-now-anyway families or whatever. gently caress yeah. Aliens have been stealing our people for centuries, they could easily have made a virus that works on us.
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Dec 25, 2020 03:37
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I firmly agree with proposals to have a quarantine of some form. We will do our best to make it a pleasant one, but bringing them to Earth too quickly has the potential to be completely disastrous.
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Dec 25, 2020 06:31
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idhrendur posted:I firmly agree with proposals to have a quarantine of some form. We will do our best to make it a pleasant one, but bringing them to Earth too quickly has the potential to be completely disastrous. Seems like it would be easier to keep them quarantined on Luna. Or, how long would it take to setup the infrastructure to support them on Mars? A couple weeks, maybe?
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Dec 25, 2020 07:58
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CYCLOPS is a military crew. You think they've only been pilfering warships though? I'd bet a week's rations there's civilians there. And they've been trapped on an alien world for a year. You think it's going to be good for them to be moved into another offworld prison where a little voice in their heads will tell them "the Comintern could wipe us out in an instant" I mean, it's just as true on an island somewhere, but it's about how it looks, how it feels. They'll be much happier if they're back on home. Even if it's an island, at least it's an EARTH Island. Oh. I almost forgot. Since basically every proposal is to do a food drop anyhow, can we get them a radio kit down there. While morse code enthusiasts are undoubtedly thrilled, having a human voice on the other end of the line will no doubt be of great comfort. Not to mention a drat sight quicker. Veloxyll fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Dec 25, 2020 |
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Dec 25, 2020 11:35
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Can we just assume that once we get something to them, we can assume that the medical and security elements will manage things with assumed competence?
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Dec 25, 2020 12:53
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While I do think we should keep them on Mars for debriefing and quarantine procedures, I also agree that sending down something like a radio and some other helpful items along with the food supplies would be a good idea.
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Dec 25, 2020 22:11
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what is the transfer time and transport capacity (both in passengers and infrastructure) between earth and mars? because I suspect it's a lot easier to bring the infrastructure to house an unknown number of people to mars than to transfer the same number of people that are currently in cryo storage to luna. We also currently don't control the rate at which people are released from cryo storage, so personally I prefer bringing some infrastructure to mars to secure their immediate needs (food, water, oxygen) over trying to get all of them to earth or luna right now.
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Dec 25, 2020 22:38
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zanni posted:While I do think we should keep them on Mars for debriefing and quarantine procedures, I also agree that sending down something like a radio and some other helpful items along with the food supplies would be a good idea. Depends on if we’re able to provide it at all. Don’t forget the Proton/Electron resupply isn’t planned as such, it’s just taking advantage of the facts that they have the possibility of landing on a planet surface and the ships are well-stocked. It might not be possible to rip one of the radios out of the ship and rig it up for the abductees somehow. Even if they’re able to cobble together a radio (possibly from spare parts) I doubt they can just plug it into their existing tech. Would they need to rig up power, a better antenna?
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Dec 25, 2020 22:43
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sheep-dodger posted:what is the transfer time and transport capacity (both in passengers and infrastructure) between earth and mars? because I suspect it's a lot easier to bring the infrastructure to house an unknown number of people to mars than to transfer the same number of people that are currently in cryo storage to luna. We also currently don't control the rate at which people are released from cryo storage, so personally I prefer bringing some infrastructure to mars to secure their immediate needs (food, water, oxygen) over trying to get all of them to earth or luna right now. From Mister Bates’ earlier comments, it sounded like the «sending stuff to Mars» option would take a couple weeks.
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Dec 25, 2020 22:45
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First off, I have coronavirus, so that's fun lol. I'm a bit out of it but I'm making it okay all things considered. Now, to answer a couple questions! One of the Hawaiian passenger ships has been refitted with cryotubes, the other is still equipped for short-range transport and could not reasonably make the Mars run. That means you have the ability to transfer 50,000 people to or from Mars at a time. Interestingly, the Hawaiian designs operate on the same principles as our own Vasilyev cryotube design, but are not copies of them; they appear to have developed the technology independently. That's just people, though; the Hawaiian liners have no significant cargo capacity. For cargo, your four Berowra-class freighters will be done in less than two months and will exponentially increase the rate at which bulk freight can be transferred across interplanetary distances; right now, using the Luna, you can shift enough life support infrastructure for five thousand people (assuming Martian conditions) per load. Freezing for years before the invention of modern cryopreservation methods did not do the Roswell specimens any favors at the cellular level, but intact cells are similar enough to human cells (organelles suspended in cytoplasm surrounded by a membrane, double-helix DNA) that there is at least a small chance of there being a degree of biological compatibility, enough that strict precautions are exercised whenever examining them. They're not that close, though - the most obvious difference being no mitochondria, with a structurally vastly different and unidentified organelle probably fulfilling a similar function. They look similar, but these are definitely aliens. Quarantine procedures should and will be observed but the likelihood of a naturally-evolved pathogen crossing the species barrier is estimated to be very low. On to votes! First off, establishing a permanent outpost at the ruins seemed to have broad consensus, so unless there are objections, we won't vote on that, although exactly how big it is and what it's for can change a lot depending on how this vote goes. Establishing a department under X-COM specifically to handle these survivors will be necessary administrative infrastructure for any of these plans, so we also won't vote on that. Landing the Proton-B for an initial survey of the site and to deliver emergency food supplies to the survivors seemed to have no objections; if you do have objections, please voice them and we'll put that up to a vote. Electron-B will remain in areostationary orbit over the site, to provide a communications lifeline. The crew of the Proton-B will be quarantined and disinfected upon returning to Earth, which will take them out of service for a month after the mission concludes. The plan will follow the first three steps of this outline: Foxfire_ posted:Logistics! The next three steps are more contentious, and that's where voting comes in. I'm splitting this into three votes and trying to encompass every option that was proposed. I have removed a few options which are technically possible but did not seem to have any support (for example, there is no 'do nothing to the site for 3-5 years while waiting on research' option). If you feel like I missed something important please bring it up and I'll work it in. First, what do we do with the people who are awake now? A - We will return them to Earth as soon as possible, then quarantine them at an island site on Earth until they can be determined to be safe (both safe from us, and us safe from them), at which point they will be gradually reacclimatized to modern Earth society. B - We will instead quarantine them at a facility on Luna. C - They will be housed at the outpost we will construct at the Face until such time as we feel safe returning them to Earth. Support personnel will be sent to Mars to carry out this plan and life support infrastructure constructed to accommodate them, and they will be kept strictly separate from the Barsoom outpost. Second: we will not be messing with the cryotubes immediately because we literally haven't even seen them and there's no guarantee we could safely open them. That having been said, once we have more understanding of how they work, what do we do with the sleepers? A - nothing. We still don't know what we're dealing with here. Study and observe them passively but leave the tubes sealed. B - wake them and bring them home as soon as possible, doing most of the study, debriefing, and reacclimatization at specialized facilities on Earth. C - wake them and leave them there, expanding the Face outpost to accommodate them and attempting to do as much of our work with them on Mars as possible before bringing them home. Again, the necessary support personnel and infrastructure will be ferried to Mars as needed, likely several thousand. Edit: D: Pacho posted:The Asleep: vote I'm proposing D: Once we have mapped out the facility, start to wake a very small number of people so we have more intel about their origins and then start to steadily wake them in waves, starting with the ones chronologically closer to us, and waking the next wave after the previous one has finished it's quarantine period on Earth. If this option is unsuitable I'll vote B Third: how do we handle early exploration of the site, past the initial look around? A - organize a team of about 40 experts with a minor security escort, equip them with the best extraplanetary-operations gear the Luna proving grounds have tested, and have them start exploring the site themselves as soon as we can get them to Mars, probably a month or two all told. Don't send anyone else to the Face except the necessary personnel to handle the plans enumerated in votes one and two. B - when the Luna arrives with additional supplies and the beginnings of an outpost, ferry a team of 40-50 from the Barsoom outpost using the Luna's shuttles and have them begin surveying the site from the newly established Cydonia base camp. This will be faster (can be done basically as soon as the Luna arrives), and while they will not be specially trained xenoscientists, the Barsoom team are still highly qualified experts and over half of them have advanced degrees in various fields. C - Porque no los dos? Do both, one right after the other. Finally, do we start a Discord for this LP? A simple Y or N. So, to summarize: The Awake: vote A, B, or C The Asleep: vote A, B, C, or D The Site: vote A, B, or C The Discord: vote Y or N. Voting will be open for three-ish days, which is longer than normal but it's also Christmas. Voting is now open! This is a much shorter and simpler list than normal so we'll just do it in-thread instead of setting up special infrastructure for it. Mister Bates fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Dec 26, 2020 |
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Dec 26, 2020 01:32
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The Awake: C The Asleep: C The Site: The Discord: Y idhrendur fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Dec 26, 2020 |
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Dec 26, 2020 01:40
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The Awake: A, imagine if we could perhaps have a television crew among them, recording their introduction to modern things, norms and politics. It would be a lighthearted experience that would bring much-needed mirth to the people of Earth. Also if they integrate better than the remaining capitalists, we could use it to make fun of them. The Asleep: B, if the TV show is a hit, we're gonna need enough for a second and third season. The Site: C, plus also ship them a bunch more guns in case there are alien security constructs that they need to engage in running gun battles so we can dismantle them and study their advanced technology. The Discord: N, honestly, I wouldn't have the time to actively roleplay and debate there, and I honestly feel like for those who do not, we would miss out on stuff if a lot of the chatter moves there. Secondly, frankly, considering the highly political nature of this LP I'd be pretty worried it would require a lot of very active moderation from some very competent people to avoid any drama or slapfights starting up.
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Dec 26, 2020 01:47
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Hope you feel better soon and don't worry about taking a break if you need it. Also thank you very much for the biology update.
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Dec 26, 2020 01:47
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Awake: B Asleep: A Site: A Discord: Abstain
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Dec 26, 2020 01:55
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The Awake: C, this is just a quarantine on Mars, right? They're not going to be made permanent prisoners with C, are they...? Someone mentioned it'd be more cruel to quarantine them on the Moon where they can see the Earth all the time rather than on Mars, I definitely agree. The Asleep: B, provided of course the Awake have been cleared to come back to Earth by then, otherwise C, if you could even track that. The Site: C edit: removed Discord vote Sanev.Khan fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Dec 26, 2020 |
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Dec 26, 2020 01:56
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Sanev.Khan posted:this is just a quarantine on Mars, right? They're not going to be made permanent prisoners with C, are they...? Someone mentioned it'd be more cruel to quarantine them on the Moon where they can see the Earth all the time rather than on Mars, I definitely agree. Based on my reading of it, it was intended to be temporary, and unless someone suggests otherwise the plan will be implemented under the assumption that it will be temporary.
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Dec 26, 2020 01:59
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The UAWR votes: A, B, C, Y Also if I'd known this would have been a voting thing, I would've put the resolution to have my flag adopted up, darn.
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Dec 26, 2020 02:01
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The Awake: C The Asleep: C The Site: A The Discord: Y
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Dec 26, 2020 02:01
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