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Motronic posted:That's exactly what it means. NG just isn't very energy dense. Good points! Guy Axlerod posted:Since you have to go to the panel to switch between utility power and generator power, I would just switch off the breakers for circuits I don't plan on using. Mark the ones you want ON with a sticker or something, and switch them off when going to generator power. Switch them back on when you go back to utility power. That's a really good idea. Luckily my new panel is labeled pretty decently.
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Dec 21, 2020 16:19
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Chumbawumba4ever97 posted:I don't really have thousands of dollars to spend on a generator, though I did research total harmonic distortion. It seems as though it's a bad idea to run sensitive electronics on a $800 generator, and to be honest I probably wasn't going to during an outage anyway. So if I lose power in my home, I'll unplug my server, my computer in my office, and all my televisions, then turn the generator on. Hopefully that will be enough? 5500, specifically for the generator you're looking at.  Identifying the circuits you want on (fridge, lights, AC, furnace) is a good idea. Or just leave anything you don't want off after you lose power.
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Dec 21, 2020 18:15
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I had two new circuits added and two outlets run a while back when I was having my service panel replaced and upgraded. They added it as a 15a double pole circuit. I'm now looking to add two outlets downstream of the first new outlet but I've not dealt with this configuration before and I'm not sure where I should be adding on to. Pigtail off the hot/neutrals going in between the outlets? Also note the truly excellent job at cutting a hole in my wall that the electrician left me.
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Dec 21, 2020 19:01
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They did a bad job wiring that, splicing the neutral through the outlets that way is the shittiest, most failure prone way to do that. But yeah, choose your circuit (red or black wire) then hook your hot up to that one, hook all your whites together and all your grounds together and bingo you're done. While you're at it I'd take the neutral coming in and the one going out, and change those so they're under a wire nut with a pigtail for the outlets. Are those stupid ground crimp rings still legal? Those things suck.
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Dec 21, 2020 19:30
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Elviscat posted:They did a bad job wiring that, splicing the neutral through the outlets that way is the shittiest, most failure prone way to do that. They did a really lovely job (which I complained about in this thread) so I'm not surprised at all to learn they half assed the outlets. Just so I'm clear, I should take these off, create pigtails, and add my new outlet wires to these two: 
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Dec 21, 2020 19:48
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Sirotan posted:They did a really lovely job (which I complained about in this thread) so I'm not surprised at all to learn they half assed the outlets. Yes. You should also remove the outgoing neutral and add it under the wire nut with you pigtails (make sure both poles of the circuit are deenergized) circled in red here.  And of course the bare ground wires all need to be tied together, with two pigtails for the existing outlets. E: If you're going to go with two pigtails for the outlets, also remove the existing wires that connecting the two outlets together (there's no reason to do so though)
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Dec 21, 2020 20:06
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Elviscat posted:Yes. So everything is turned off, I've got all the hots on the right side together, grounds together. Outgoing neutral- if I add that to my pigtail does that mean that left side outlet just has the one neutral now going to the other outlet or am I pig tailing neutrals to both outlets? Sorry if this is a painfully obvious answer, I'm suddenly feeling very dumb w/r/t electrical.
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Dec 21, 2020 21:13
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Sirotan posted:So everything is turned off, I've got all the hots on the right side together, grounds together. Outgoing neutral- if I add that to my pigtail does that mean that left side outlet just has the one neutral now going to the other outlet or am I pig tailing neutrals to both outlets? Sorry if this is a painfully obvious answer, I'm suddenly feeling very dumb w/r/t electrical. Yes, as long as both outlets are connected to neutral, through the outlet or all under a wire nut doesn't matter. The reason I'm recommending you move the outgoing neutral is that having a whole 'nother circuit fed through multiple connections that can go bad is just a bad idea and unworkmanlike. Take a picture when you're done!
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Dec 21, 2020 21:22
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Chumbawumba4ever97 posted:I don't really have thousands of dollars to spend on a generator, though I did research total harmonic distortion. It seems as though it's a bad idea to run sensitive electronics on a $800 generator, and to be honest I probably wasn't going to during an outage anyway. So if I lose power in my home, I'll unplug my server, my computer in my office, and all my televisions, then turn the generator on. Hopefully that will be enough? Did your electrician suggest a standby generator? Even a low end one like a Generac will have a CNG option, and while it's a bit more than double the cost of a Costco $800 job, it'll automatically start when the power goes out, plus tests itself weekly. You'll need an automatic transfer switch, but it sounds like (hopefully) the panel is already wired so that critical loads are setup so that the generator powers them. Also, the power will be far cleaner than a portable unit. Not as clean as, say, a Honda inverter unit, but you're looking at $5k for a 7000 watt Honda (which would be downrated when run on CNG).
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Dec 21, 2020 21:26
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Elviscat posted:Yes, as long as both outlets are connected to neutral, through the outlet or all under a wire nut doesn't matter.  My circuit tester says it's happy??
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Dec 21, 2020 21:56
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How's that box holding on? There's more hole than drywall there.
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Dec 21, 2020 22:11
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Sirotan posted:
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Dec 21, 2020 22:11
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Nevets posted:How's that box holding on? There's more hole than drywall there. It's screwed into a stud on the left. Yeah it's a mess. Not Wolverine posted:How many romex lines are in this box? Please take this apart right now. . . I count at least 3 possibly 4 romex lines in that box, 2 white and 1 yellow, I am guessing there is another yellow romex line below the first yellow romex line. That is really bad, white implies a 15amp circuit, yellow implies a different 20 amp circuit, you do not want to connect these two circuits together. The next best step (besides calling an electrician) would be to make sure the power is off to every circuit in that box, take all the wire nuts off and then separate them so that it is clear exactly how many romex lines are in this box. It's a double 15amp circuit. 1 line in and 3 out. I've got 12 gauge wire on hand which is why I'm using it. Kinda wish I had 14 gauge because yeah this is a lot of crap to push back into this box.
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Dec 21, 2020 22:21
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I think code-wise you are only allowed 1 duplex receptacle on a single phase 15 amp circuit and nothing else. You've got two phases so maybe you could put one receptacle on each leg, don't know if that's allowed code-wise, but that leaves your branch circuits unconnected.
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Dec 21, 2020 22:27
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Nevets posted:I think code-wise you are only allowed 1 duplex receptacle on a single phase 15 amp circuit and nothing else. You've got two phases so maybe you could put one receptacle on each leg, don't know if that's allowed code-wise, but that leaves your branch circuits unconnected. Shared neutral input is fine as long as the breaker is bonded together. So in this case presuming the 14/3 is the input and it's on a 15A breaker then everything downstream is fine. This box looks clean but not "perfect ideal" (all pigtails all the time, good luck pushing it back in.) I wouldn't hesitate glancing in this box other than to tug on the nuts  .The real question is what's that fabric covered wire in the back. If it's abandoned, then abanon it into the wall to make your life easier.
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Dec 21, 2020 22:43
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STR posted:Did your electrician suggest a standby generator? Even a low end one like a Generac will have a CNG option, and while it's a bit more than double the cost of a Costco $800 job, it'll automatically start when the power goes out, plus tests itself weekly. You'll need an automatic transfer switch, but it sounds like (hopefully) the panel is already wired so that critical loads are setup so that the generator powers them. Thanks for this. Is there a way to find out if I have an automatic transfer switch installed?
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Dec 21, 2020 22:46
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H110Hawk posted:
I got it all pushed in and yeah it sucked!! The old rear end wire is going through the wall and to a switch by my front door, and then to my porch light. I really wanted to re-run that section today into my basement and to another circuit but when I jammed my fish stick down the wall it hit something. I'm not feeling up to removing a bunch of wall so I guess it's going to continue to chill out in there.
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Dec 21, 2020 22:48
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Sirotan posted:I got it all pushed in and yeah it sucked!! Yeah if it's live just ignore it. 
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Dec 21, 2020 22:49
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Chumbawumba4ever97 posted:Thanks for this. Is there a way to find out if I have an automatic transfer switch installed? Chumbawumba4ever97 posted:Here's a picture of the new panel in my basement: If I'm looking at that right, you have a manual interlock, which to me screams "no ATS". That zinc-plated bit there won't let you have both the generator and utility feed breakers closed simultaneously. During an outage you'll have to go to the panel, shut the main utility feed off, move the interlock to block it instead of the generator breaker, and then turn the generator feed breaker on.
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Dec 21, 2020 22:55
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e: IoC beat me. you have a manual switch. Better than nothing, but won't accommodate a standby generator (where the generator fires up on its own when the power drops). The bulk of the wiring is already there for an ATS, though. It's absolutely fine if you don't want to have something fire up automatically. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Dec 21, 2020 |
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Dec 21, 2020 22:56
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Sirotan posted:
Looks good! Not Wolverine posted:How many romex lines are in this box? Please take this apart right now. . . I count at least 3 possibly 4 romex lines in that box, 2 white and 1 yellow, I am guessing there is another yellow romex line below the first yellow romex line. That is really bad, white implies a 15amp circuit, yellow implies a different 20 amp circuit, you do not want to connect these two circuits together. The next best step (besides calling an electrician) would be to make sure the power is off to every circuit in that box, take all the wire nuts off and then separate them so that it is clear exactly how many romex lines are in this box. Did you read any of their posts? The new #12 is for the new outlets they're installing. They already stated it's fed from a 15A breaker. They might be close on wire fill with the (apparant) abandoned wires in the back, all the new wiring I get about 18 cu in of wire fill in that box, which is at least 25 cu in in volune. Nevets posted:I think code-wise you are only allowed 1 duplex receptacle on a single phase 15 amp circuit and nothing else. You've got two phases so maybe you could put one receptacle on each leg, don't know if that's allowed code-wise, but that leaves your branch circuits unconnected. This is complete nonsense, you don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about. Why would you comment on his work if you literally know nothing? The NEC is free online if you want to look something up H110Hawk posted:Shared neutral input is fine as long as the breaker is bonded together. So in this case presuming the 14/3 is the input and it's on a 15A breaker then everything downstream is fine. This box looks clean but not "perfect ideal" (all pigtails all the time, good luck pushing it back in.) I wouldn't hesitate glancing in this box other than to tug on the nuts All good points.
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Dec 21, 2020 23:12
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IOwnCalculus posted:If I'm looking at that right, you have a manual interlock, which to me screams "no ATS". That zinc-plated bit there won't let you have both the generator and utility feed breakers closed simultaneously. During an outage you'll have to go to the panel, shut the main utility feed off, move the interlock to block it instead of the generator breaker, and then turn the generator feed breaker on. STR posted:e: IoC beat me. you have a manual switch. Thanks a ton. It's not the end of the world as power outages aren't even common where I live. So I don't mind having to do all of this if we lose power. However I'd still like to know if everything is "balanced" properly like a few posters mentioned. What does that mean exactly? Whether or not the electrician put the "important" stuff on the generator breaker or something?
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Dec 21, 2020 23:29
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STR posted:Did your electrician suggest a standby generator? Even a low end one like a Generac will have a CNG option, and while it's a bit more than double the cost of a Costco $800 job, it'll automatically start when the power goes out, plus tests itself weekly. You'll need an automatic transfer switch, but it sounds like (hopefully) the panel is already wired so that critical loads are setup so that the generator powers them. Chumbawumba4ever97 posted:Thanks for this. Is there a way to find out if I have an automatic transfer switch installed? You do not. You don't have ANY transfer switch installed. Transfer switches come in basically two choices of two major types: First choice: - automatic: will start the generator, switch off the feed form the poco, drop the load on the generator and then reverse the process after the utility powers comes back on for a specific amount of time - manual: just what it sounds like. You plug the generator into something and start it, throw the switch which simultaneously cuts the power from the utility feed and starts feeding from the generator inlet. Second choice: - full: this literally sits right after your meter on the utility feed. It switches your entire house/outbuilding/whatever load to the generator. - partial: this is a switch that is also a subpanel. You decide how much generator you want/need, put in an appropriately sized transfer switch and literally move all of those circuits that your want powered over to it. You then feed the input of the switch with an appropriately sized breaker from your main panel, which now had a whole lot of extra space in it because you've moved over all of those circuits. What you have: it's a cheap approximation of a manual/full transfer switch, but it's not a transfer switch, it's just a couple breakers mechanically tied together to keep you from blowing up your generator and/or electrocuting linemen when using the inlet plug. Nothing you have there - the inlet plug or the inlet breaker/tie to the main breaker will be used if you install a proper transfer switch. Not that they need to be removed, but they simply won't be used. The transfer switch will be installed "between" your meter and the current main breaker in your panel.
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Dec 21, 2020 23:30
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Elviscat posted:Looks good! Thanks for your help with this, I really appreciate it.
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Dec 21, 2020 23:33
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Sirotan posted:It's screwed into a stud on the left. Yeah it's a mess. Not through the box, I hope
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Dec 22, 2020 00:00
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Elviscat posted:This is complete nonsense, you don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about. Why would you comment on his work if you literally know nothing? I had been told that if you wanted an outlet on a circuit that was rated the same as that circuit you could only use one, I don't recall ever seeing 15 amp outlets on anything other than a 20 amp circuit so I never questioned it. Looking it up online it seems like that's a misreading of 210 21 B 1 which says that if you only use 1 outlet on a circuit it has to be rated at least as high as the circuit. Sorry for spreading misinformation. Edit: fixed citation Nevets fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Dec 22, 2020 |
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Dec 22, 2020 00:18
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BonerGhost posted:Not through the box, I hope Ugh, it is, I can see the screw in the first picture, I missed that. God drat it those electricians suck. E: Sirotan, how good are you at wall repair? Elviscat fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Dec 22, 2020 |
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Dec 22, 2020 00:18
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Elviscat posted:Ugh, it is, I can see the screw in the first picture, I missed that. Lol. Let me guess, that isn't allowed? And I'm getting pretty good at it, much to my displeasure.
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Dec 22, 2020 00:27
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STR posted:The bulk of the wiring is already there for an ATS, though. angryrobots posted:I wouldn't say you wasted money upgrading to a 200A base, but that would have been the most cost-effective time to get the transfer switch and all installed. I do agree that a higher quality generator than that Costco unit would be a good idea, at the least. Having standby power won't be good for much if the control board for the fridge gets fried after an hour of runtime. Chumbawumba4ever97 posted:However I'd still like to know if everything is "balanced" properly like a few posters mentioned. What does that mean exactly? Whether or not the electrician put the "important" stuff on the generator breaker or something? No, the way it's set up now, the generator feeds the bus bar in your main panel, so the generator will heat up anything that feeds out of that panel. "Balancing" in your case refers to distributing the 120v circuits between the two available legs of power in such a way that the load is even or close to it on the two legs. Some of this is common sense, some is testing based. It doesn't have to be perfect - mostly when wiring the panel you can just make sure that you don't put way more 120v circuits on the same leg. In your case, I'd turn on all the load you'd like to have on during an outage, and read the amperage on each leg to see where you're at.
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Dec 22, 2020 00:48
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Sirotan posted:Lol. Let me guess, that isn't allowed? And I'm getting pretty good at it, much to my displeasure. Nope, ungrounded metal bits penetrating a box are bad, I mean it's not catastrophically unsafe, but it's a shock risk. If you want to fix it the right way, I'd suggest trimming the plaster back over the stud and putting in a box like this (or any other box you can easily attach without doing dumb poo poo) then patching. You'll undo that manky hole they made in your wall that way too. You could use a regular retro box, (like you have, but without the bonus screw), but I wouldn't trust one not to punch through a patch. I like that they used a big hex-head screw instead of a drywall screw that would be less likely to contact hot wires. Maybe call them up and ask them why you have to unfuck their work, and request a partial refund?
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Dec 22, 2020 01:05
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Elviscat posted:Nope, ungrounded metal bits penetrating a box are bad, I mean it's not catastrophically unsafe, but it's a shock risk. Sighhhhh. Yeah this is the place that left literal garbage all over my yard and house when they left, and claimed they couldn't bother to clean up after themselves because sweeping or using a vacuum would disturb the air, which could spread coronavirus! Yes, they really said that. I sent photos and an unhappy email to the owner and she told me "sorry you're disappointed". It was such a lovely experience that I'm not even surprised to find out they half assed this, just mad. Now I'm gonna have to open up the other outlet they put in and make sure it's not just as bad. The plaster is all hosed up in this area so I might have to cut out a huge section of wall and replace it. Guess I'll pick up a new box for this and spend my Tuesday redoing all this work again.
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Dec 22, 2020 01:13
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Sirotan posted:Sighhhhh. Yeah this is the place that left literal garbage all over my yard and house when they left, and claimed they couldn't bother to clean up after themselves because sweeping or using a vacuum would disturb the air, which could spread coronavirus! Yes, they really said that. I sent photos and an unhappy email to the owner and she told me "sorry you're disappointed". It was such a lovely experience that I'm not even surprised to find out they half assed this, just mad. Now I'm gonna have to open up the other outlet they put in and make sure it's not just as bad.  Good on you for doing a better job than literal professionals though  E: I ran into this a bunch when I was an electrician, I had about a 25/75 chance of the lathe and plaster blowing out, whether I hit a chunk of lathe that vibrated a bunch of plaster out, or the plaster was just so lovely that it fell apart when I tried to remove it. But I warned the homeowner about that before hand, and if it happened I'd cut the squarest hole I could, install a conventional box and tell the HO to call the drywallers. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Dec 22, 2020 |
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Dec 22, 2020 01:17
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angryrobots posted:
Thanks a billion!
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Dec 22, 2020 18:04
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Before: All of the top coat of plaster was coming off in this area so I needed to cut out a big section. Was really worried that the damaged cement board meant some kind of water damage on the other side, but nope.  That fuckin screw... After! 
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Dec 22, 2020 20:38
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Sirotan posted:
great work.
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Dec 22, 2020 20:41
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Sirotan posted:Before: Staple those fuckers to the stud while you're in there!
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Dec 22, 2020 21:57
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Sirotan posted:Before: Lol, I couldn't tell how cockeyed and off level that box was until you posted these. Nice work! Messadiah posted:Staple those fuckers to the stud while you're in there!
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Dec 22, 2020 22:06
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Messadiah posted:Staple those fuckers to the stud while you're in there! lol dang it, I didn't think to do that and I'm not taking off the drywall at this point  My box measuring skills need some work...
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Dec 22, 2020 22:14
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Sirotan posted:lol dang it, I didn't think to do that and I'm not taking off the drywall at this point Looks stapled to me.
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Dec 22, 2020 22:15
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Once the drywall's on you're back under fishing rules for wire support anyways, so it's all good.
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Dec 22, 2020 22:58
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