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Cornell has some non-standard beliefs on the relationship between Rome and the Etruscans during the monarchy. Not that he's a crank or anything, just a historian who doesn't follow the consensus. I second the recommendation, it's a good book, but go into it knowing that whenever Cornell spends three pages vigorously defending an assertion, it's because most of his colleagues disagree.
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Dec 22, 2020 21:40
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https://youtu.be/mvURMFzcIqc
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Dec 22, 2020 23:08
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Megasabin posted:
I thought that this result (agriculture in the Indian subcontinent coming from the Middle Eastern hearth) was not 100% confirmed? fake edit: just copying from Wiki, seems to say 99 yes%: quote:According to Gangal et al. (2014), there is strong archeological and geographical evidence that neolithic farming spread from the Near East into north-west India.[15][16][note 1] Yet, Jean-Francois Jarrige argues for an independent origin of Mehrgarh. Jarrige notes the similarities between Neolithic sites from eastern Mesopotamia and the western Indus valley, which are evidence of a "cultural continuum" between those sites. Nevertheless, Jarrige concludes that Mehrgarh has an earlier local background," and is not a "'backwater' of the Neolithic culture of the Near East."[31] Singh et al. (2016) investigated the distribution of J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 in South Asia, which "suggested a complex scenario that cannot be explained by a single wave of agricultural expansion from Near East to South Asia,"[16] but also note that "regardless of the complexity of dispersal, NW region appears to be the corridor for entry of these haplogroups into India."[16]
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Dec 23, 2020 01:22
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Zopotantor posted:No problem, just learn the language. I'll be taking lessons in my easily pronounceable adopted hometown of Mtskheta.
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Dec 23, 2020 16:27
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Is anyone here familiar with Michael Kulikowski? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kulikowski He seems to have some strong opinions and I wanted to know if he's worth reading. He seems to actually be a proper history professor but that is the extent of the vetting my lack of ancient history knowledge lets me do. Is he a guy with interesting new points of view or a bit cranky?
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Dec 24, 2020 02:36
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Kulikowski is ok. Guy Halsall is from the same school of thought and a better writer. Ideally you could also read guys like Peter Heather who both of them are often arguing against. None of these guys (imo) are selling crazy new ideas, it’s more like the modern generation of a split dating back to mid-century (and in some ways even earlier than that and 19th century) about the proper way to interpret the collapse of the Roman west and the rise of Germanic (or according to one side, “Germanic”) kingdoms in its place.
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Dec 24, 2020 02:42
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it is absolutely true that one's identity as a "Goth", specifically, was quite flexible. a lot of dispossessed and generally pissed off romans joined up with the goths when they rebelled against roman rule after they were mercilessly exploited as refugees, and this trend continued as they wandered the empire. the army that alaric led to sack rome was in no small part made up of ex-romans i am curious to know how he justifies the idea that there is no actual germanic identity tho
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Dec 24, 2020 03:34
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Thanks guys, that gives me a context to put him in!
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Dec 24, 2020 03:39
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Jazerus posted:it is absolutely true that one's identity as a "Goth", specifically, was quite flexible. Nuh uh! quote:How do I become Goth?
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Dec 24, 2020 04:12
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCSP1THD9cA
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Dec 24, 2020 04:17
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Jazerus posted:it is absolutely true that one's identity as a "Goth", specifically, was quite flexible. a lot of dispossessed and generally pissed off romans joined up with the goths when they rebelled against roman rule after they were mercilessly exploited as refugees, and this trend continued as they wandered the empire. the army that alaric led to sack rome was in no small part made up of ex-romans Yeah, it's one thing to say that Gothic identity was flexible, but the Wikipedia article makes him sound like a Germanophobic crank.
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Dec 24, 2020 04:20
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The core of Walter Goffart’s ideas that you see in guys like Kulikowski is that “German” can mean very different things depending on who’s talking when. Late antique Greco-Roman writers don’t have the same associations with “German” as early twentieth-century German writers. This is true as far as it goes, but can be extrapolated to defend some fairly ridiculous positions. Goffart does have what I would call a Germanophobic streak and, like a couple of his followers, isn’t above arguing that his opponents are crypto-Nazis or at least unwittingly peddling Nazi ideas. This always struck me as fairly over the top but I guess controversy sells books.
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Dec 24, 2020 12:44
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GoutPatrol posted:I thought that this result (agriculture in the Indian subcontinent coming from the Middle Eastern hearth) was not 100% confirmed? wild wheat has never been found in South Asia, suggesting that either wheat was first domesticated in the Near-East from well-known domestic wild species and then brought to South Asia, or that wild wheat existed in the past in South Asia but somehow became extinct without leaving a trace
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Dec 26, 2020 01:15
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A Goth is a member of the Goths, a group of East Germanic tribes.
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Dec 26, 2020 03:11
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euphronius posted:A Goth is a member of the Goths, a group of East Germanic tribes. Otherwise it's just a sparkling barbarian.
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Dec 26, 2020 03:55
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Does anyone have any good parahistorical interpretations of the Sea People? Ideally from the long 19th Century? This might be better asked in a different thread but I figure people steeped in real history have some familiarity with fake history too. Think "Old Time-y Alex Jones but with Peerage" or "Gravilo Princip's big thing before he shifted hard into nationalism". I want your biggest bestest pope-a-gators.
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Dec 26, 2020 08:37
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I don’t even know if they knew about the Bronze Age collapse in the 1800s Also https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07fl5bh
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Dec 26, 2020 17:38
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The work on all the Sea Peoples inscriptions was Egyptologist stuff from the mid-late 19th century. The idea of a general “Bronze Age collapse” is more of a recent thing
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Dec 26, 2020 18:06
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Well what have we got here...quote:ROME (Reuters) - Archaeologists in Pompeii, the city buried in a volcanic eruption in 79 AD, have made the extraordinary find of a frescoed hot food and drinks shop that served up the ancient equivalent of street food to Roman passersby.
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Dec 26, 2020 18:49
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The colors are amazing
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Dec 26, 2020 18:57
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aphid_licker posted:The colors are amazing The absolute worst thing about Pompeii is how early it was excavated. Reports from the time are most of the city looked like that when originally dug out, but most of it has since melted in the rain.
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Dec 26, 2020 19:03
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Grand Fromage posted:The absolute worst thing about Pompeii is how early it was excavated. Reports from the time are most of the city looked like that when originally dug out, but most of it has since melted in the rain. How would that have worked during Roman times? Ah, wait, you mean like colors that were applied in what used to be interior rooms and were then excavated with their roofs missing? That's sad.
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Dec 26, 2020 19:09
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It's ok. We'll find another Pompeii and be more careful.
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Dec 26, 2020 19:11
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Grand Fromage posted:The absolute worst thing about Pompeii is how early it was excavated. Reports from the time are most of the city looked like that when originally dug out, but most of it has since melted in the rain. Rule Number 0 of archaeology: Do you really need to excavate that now? It strikes again.
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Dec 26, 2020 19:11
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Science is built upon the mistakes of their predecessors.
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Dec 26, 2020 19:22
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aphid_licker posted:How would that have worked during Roman times? Ah, wait, you mean like colors that were applied in what used to be interior rooms and were then excavated with their roofs missing? That's sad. The exterior walls were also stuccoed and painted (not usually so elaborately as the interiors), some of those sections were covered and are still visible. The way it would've worked during Roman times was regular maintenance. If you left your exterior wall exposed to the elements for 200 years without any touching up, it'd fall apart back then too. And yeah, most of the roofs are gone so the interiors are also exposed to the elements unless you cover them up again. A lot of the nicest villas have been re-reroofed and the paintings inside are in excellent shape, but many others were just left to rot. Telsa Cola posted:Rule Number 0 of archaeology: Do you really need to excavate that now? Fortunately about 25% of the city is still buried. I would dearly love to see it but it's an enormous site, protecting it is expensive.
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Dec 26, 2020 19:27
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Grand Fromage posted:The exterior walls were also stuccoed and painted (not usually so elaborately as the interiors), some of those sections were covered and are still visible. The way it would've worked during Roman times was regular maintenance. If you left your exterior wall exposed to the elements for 200 years without any touching up, it'd fall apart back then too. Yeah when I worked in Belize part of the requirement of getting a permit is that the project foots the bill for preservation and restoration costs. Ends up working well for the country because they don't have to pay that and a large chunk of their economy is tourism based (which is a double edged sword).
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Dec 26, 2020 19:31
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Also doesn't help that it's in southern Italy, so not only is it a huge, expensive project, but the area is relatively poor and corruption/organized crime are major problems. Italy is in a tough spot since like Greece, basically the entire country is an archaeological site so protecting it all is impractical.
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Dec 26, 2020 19:34
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Grand Fromage posted:Also doesn't help that it's in southern Italy, so not only is it a huge, expensive project, but the area is relatively poor and corruption/organized crime are major problems. Yeah curation costs/space issues for recovered artifacts alone can be extremely crippling in situations like that.
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Dec 26, 2020 19:45
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Construction's a nightmare. Rome's subway lines take forever because practically every inch of it is a rescue archaeology project.
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Dec 26, 2020 20:02
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Telsa Cola posted:Yeah when I worked in Belize part of the requirement of getting a permit is that the project foots the bill for preservation and restoration costs. Ends up working well for the country because they don't have to pay that and a large chunk of their economy is tourism based (which is a double edged sword). I once had Belize recommended to me because you're allowed to climb all over all the archeological sites, which is not the case next door in Mexico. It sounded cool, but like feeding the wildlife, just not something I'm really comfortable with.
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Dec 26, 2020 20:30
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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You can go anywhere you want in Angkor. It's quite the experience, though I did yell at a few tourists being complete douchebags hanging off statues and poo poo.
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Dec 26, 2020 20:40
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PittTheElder posted:I once had Belize recommended to me because you're allowed to climb all over all the archeological sites, which is not the case next door in Mexico. It sounded cool, but like feeding the wildlife, just not something I'm really comfortable with. You can climb over some of the sites. Much of the architecture has been reconsolidated and isn't "original", but you do get tremendous wear and tear. Things do get roped off as needed but yeah they do let you walk all over temples and such. Some guides will rip into you if they think/see you are being a poo poo. There is dynamic between tourism and the archaeological work and preservation that can be pretty combative sometimes. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Dec 26, 2020 |
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Dec 26, 2020 21:56
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aphid_licker posted:The colors are amazing yes quite nice A+
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Dec 27, 2020 00:06
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Grand Fromage posted:The exterior walls were also stuccoed and painted (not usually so elaborately as the interiors), some of those sections were covered and are still visible. The way it would've worked during Roman times was regular maintenance. If you left your exterior wall exposed to the elements for 200 years without any touching up, it'd fall apart back then too. Ah duh, gotcha. Thanks!
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Dec 27, 2020 00:27
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euphronius posted:A Goth is a member of the Goths, a group of East Germanic tribes. Anybody have an opinion on the claim the goths descended from the geats?
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Dec 27, 2020 08:55
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Since you guys are talking about Pompei, i'm just going to leave this here. A great 4k video of pompei for those who probably won't be able to go in their lifetimes. Other than the first 2 min where the guy explains the video, it's a silent video. No music, no comments just a nice long walk in the ruins in 4k. The video is 5h long but there are timestamps. Not mine, just one of many such videos this guy made about historical places. I legit sat through all 5 hours of it and it made me want to go so much more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUYJ8LbF1Ys&t=1s
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Dec 27, 2020 19:11
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Out of curiosity, why do we never hear about Herculaneum compared to Peompei?
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Dec 27, 2020 19:23
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It's a lot smaller and it's down in a pit. It's a better preserved site but Pompeii is more spectacular. It's not just modern views either, Pompeii was a major-ish city and Herculaneum was a little resort town.
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Dec 27, 2020 20:02
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Dec 28, 2020 00:37
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