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Blorange posted:Does that still apply if the house has been retrofitted with interior drain tile, or will water find a way? Assuming you have poured concrete walls, it can be done, but to do it properly, it requires a tight rigid foam/spray foam barrier (before studs) + rockwool for the walls, and ideally smashing the slab and pouring it correctly with a vapor barrier and insulating it. That's in addition to drains and sumps (which are easy to run before re-pouring the slab.) This means you'll probably lose height, which might be enough to bump you under minimum ceiling heights with your AHJ. It also means you're dependent on any sump pumps, so they should have backups/alarms and be serviced/tested/replaced regularly. Even sill, use cheap, vinyl flooring, because odds are it won't make it more than a decade before it sees some water. You're definitely better assuming the basement will get wet at some point, and plan on it needing to be redone.
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Dec 28, 2020 02:15
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When I did my basement I used a vapor barrier underlayment and traffic master grip strip vinyl. It's like 2.50 a square foot so if it all gets lovely it'll cost me $500. Have a cheap couch and my tv/ computer are up high.
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Dec 28, 2020 02:38
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My last house was built in the 60s and the basement was never meant to be water-proof. The best and easiest way, imo, to keep water out of the basement is to have good drainage around your house that moves water away from the foundation. Water will find a way eventually.
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Dec 28, 2020 15:04
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My folks house, built in the 50's, on top of a hill, with nothing but sand, had 4 inches of standing water in the basement two years ago. They excavated the entire perimeter of the building (except under 1/4 of the building), added drain pipe, gravel, drain cloth, ran it all to exit off the hill. The next spring they had 2 inches of standing water in the basement. They then installed a trough system all the way around the inside perimeter which feeds to a pump and out it goes. This year they had no issues. All told it was about $30k worth of poo poo to get a dry basement. Another neighbor, who was sitting lower in the water table, had to completely fill in her basement and turn it into a crawlspace as the lake levels had risen so much.
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Dec 28, 2020 15:45
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My neighborhood has a mini stream flowing right underneath it, with water problems getting progressively worse the further you move down the street. Every house on the street is 80-100+ years old and in a constant battle with water getting in to the basement/multiple sump pumps draining it away. One set of neighbors thought they had won the battle, and completely redid/finished their basement. That was an expensive mistake.
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Dec 28, 2020 15:45
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Speaking of water getting into houses - during last night's rain I awoke to discover a steady drip of water leaking down through my bathroom vent fan. Yay. Now I get to spend some of today finding out whether the HOA may cover it (unlikely unless it is roof-related) and then probably calling...idk who even would look at that. HVAC?
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Dec 28, 2020 16:16
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Highbrow Slick posted:Speaking of water getting into houses - during last night's rain I awoke to discover a steady drip of water leaking down through my bathroom vent fan. Yay. Now I get to spend some of today finding out whether the HOA may cover it (unlikely unless it is roof-related) and then probably calling...idk who even would look at that. HVAC? This happened to me over the summer and it was a roof issue. I obviously don’t know your exact set up but that would be where I personally start.
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Dec 28, 2020 16:21
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Nitrousoxide posted:This happened to me over the summer and it was a roof issue. I obviously don’t know your exact set up but that would be where I personally start. Sweet, that gives me some hope, anyway. Thanks!
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Dec 28, 2020 16:26
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Highbrow Slick posted:Speaking of water getting into houses - during last night's rain I awoke to discover a steady drip of water leaking down through my bathroom vent fan. Yay. Now I get to spend some of today finding out whether the HOA may cover it (unlikely unless it is roof-related) and then probably calling...idk who even would look at that. HVAC? Odds are that the flashing on your vent has failed in some way. That's a roof thing. Call a roofer.
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Dec 28, 2020 16:28
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Highbrow Slick posted:Speaking of water getting into houses - during last night's rain I awoke to discover a steady drip of water leaking down through my bathroom vent fan. Yay. Now I get to spend some of today finding out whether the HOA may cover it (unlikely unless it is roof-related) and then probably calling...idk who even would look at that. HVAC? Ya this is 100% a roof issue. 2 days after my new roof got installed and we got a heavy downpour I had a slight drip from one of my bathroom vents. Turns out the roofers didn't do a good enough job sealing up the vent pipe. They were out within an hour of me calling the company saying uhhh we have a problem. Thankfully we've had heavy rains since and no more issues.
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Dec 28, 2020 16:28
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Dik Hz posted:My last house was built in the 60s and the basement was never meant to be water-proof. The best and easiest way, imo, to keep water out of the basement is to have good drainage around your house that moves water away from the foundation. Water will find a way eventually. Yeah, my current home is a late 60s with 2/3 of the basement finished. The put drain tile internally and two sump pits. The sump pits almost never fill up because of aggressive grading and water diversion from the gutters. I had a downspout problem last summer that I didn't notice. I had hit one of the outflow pipes taking it away from the house with a mower. The next time it rained all the water got dumped next to the house like it would with regular non-extended gutter downspouts - and that's when I finally got to hear one of the two sump pits operate on their own. So yeah, it's possible to do this right - if, if, if. Construction type, soil type, the land around it, throwing cubic dollars at the issue, etc.
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Dec 28, 2020 16:39
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Cross posting for some visibility, plus it sounds like we're talking basements and water! I noticed this the other day:  The spray foam is new. This had been un-insulated and open since (but not during) last winter and I noticed no water issues. It's happening in another spot a few feet away. This is against a corner of the basement. It doesn't seem to actively leak during rain/snow. Any ideas on how to diagnose this without immediately chiselling out the spray foam?
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Dec 28, 2020 20:31
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Jenkl posted:Cross posting for some visibility, plus it sounds like we're talking basements and water! Look on the other side of that wall. Outside. Negative slope towards the house? Clogged gutter leaving water there? Downspout extension missing.detached leaving water there? Also, who did that mix and match sprayfoam job? Doesn't look very workmanlike. Probably needs to be chiseled out and done properly anyway. Is there even a vapor barrier back there or just plastic under the sill?
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Dec 28, 2020 20:41
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Motronic posted:Look on the other side of that wall. Outside. So there's no obvious leak on the outside siding/trim, I'd looked carefully. No gutters above dropping water there (they bring it to back side of house). The ground slopes away and done the side of the house... kind of. It's an odd lot and tight. Pictures below.   The circles correspond to studs (but not at the right height) that show water at the bottom (the one pictured is the one on the corner in the first picture. The other is the other spot I mentioned in the same room with the same problem). The patio was recently stoned/parged, but that front face was left untouched. The lot was designed to run water down that path in the middle, and has been swaled to a ravine in the back of the lot. That said, it's been 30 years, and there has been some settling, but the spot I notice as bad is further back near the back corner. There is no vapour barrier here yet, I'm doing that myself (I noticed this when I was starting to work on this areas poly). Note that, there kind of is barrier, in that most of this has >2" of spray foam, what's needed to count as a vapour barrier. But since its old framing, most of it is not 2" off the concrete, so it still needs poly in front, per my city. The plastic you see is just under the sill to seperate the concrete and lumber. I don't know why they left this part so long, perhaps it had to do with that having been a tiled shower? RE: The spray foam - purple was the original install, white was a froth pak from a call back. The orange was me doing touch ups in hard spots purely for vapour. I'd not expected to need another call back, and was (before finding this) on a tight timeline, but both of those seem to have changed. That spot was actually tight when the job was first done, as I'd since chiselled out 3 inches of mortar from the shower that was there.
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Dec 28, 2020 21:21
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That response leaves more questions than answers. I guess the main one is: why aren't you tearing all of that poo poo out anyway and starting new? If you did that there would be so many fewer questions and comments on this who thing, regardless of what your end goal is with that space which I'm not sure if you mentioned.
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Dec 28, 2020 21:28
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Motronic posted:That response leaves more questions than answers. Sorry tearing out all what? The framing? Because we did not need to. The room with the water was previously a bathroom and the goal is to return it to that state. The basement is intended to be a living space. Edit: Also, I'd be happy to answer more questions if it helps me determine a way to diagnose this. Of course I can dig down to the bottom of the foundation or chisel out all the insulation right away, both are larger tasks that I'd prefer avoiding if possible, hence why I'm looking for comedy forum expertise. Jenkl fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Dec 28, 2020 |
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Dec 28, 2020 21:34
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Jenkl posted:Sorry tearing out all what? The framing? Because we did not need to. Yes, tearing out the not-to-code framing rather than using: Jenkl posted:old framing, most of it is not 2" off the concrete, so it still needs poly in front now that you see the actual reason why the best practice is to hold that off the walls. If you throw up a poly sheet in front of the studs and this leaks again you're going to end up with rotten studs/rotten sill plate/etc that you can't see until it's way bad. I suppose this all comes down to: exactly what is wrong here that it's leaking and how long are you building this for? You gonna live in that house long term or are you selling it in 5-10 years?
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Dec 28, 2020 21:47
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Motronic posted:Yes, tearing out the not-to-code framing rather than using: You're referring to the 2" RE: the not to code comment? It was code at the time but yes, it is well below modern standard. To be clear, the framing is not 0" off the wall. It varies quite a bit. At it's worst it's a 1/2" off, at max it touches 2". Still not good. My thought was "water = bad, resolve" and I hadn't gone much further than that. We are likely to move on in around 10 years, but I'd prefer to target a 20 year build. I lack the experience to look at this and say "this will ruin a build in X years." So my goal would be to identify the source of this water and remediate... I think? That feels like it would give me 20 years. At the same time, I understand it's a basement, so asking for that much time gets pricey. That could inform the budget here, or shift the time we spend here. Identifying the source was definitely why I posted in the first place. Determining what my options are, and how much I'd spend to fix said issue come second to me after understanding the scope of the problem. I guess sometimes it costs money just to find that out, but that's what I'm doing here  .
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Dec 28, 2020 21:58
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Jenkl posted:Determining what my options are, and how much I'd spend to fix said issue come second to me after understanding the scope of the problem. I guess sometimes it costs money just to find that out, but that's what I'm doing here Yeah, that's where you're at and sometimes it does cost. But the reason I'm asking you these questions is because there are multiple approaches and "this thing that's not very good that will need modification and repair anyway is in the way" has an obvious answer of "rip that thing out". How old is this work we're looking at here? Like, when was that bathroom originally installed? Because it was either quite some time ago or it was super lovely work. I'm also concerned with: Jenkl posted:To be clear, the framing is not 0" off the wall. It varies quite a bit. At it's worst it's a 1/2" off, at max it touches 2". So what the hell ELSE is wrong with that wall besides the leaks you can see right now? Because I'm assuming the framing is straight but the wall is not. Correct me if I'm making the wrong assumption. Either way is not good.
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Dec 28, 2020 22:03
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First time home buyer and long lurker here... I've paid for an inspection on a detached house and I'm trying to gauge the severity of some issues. There was humidity detected behind a basement wall, and the outer cladding of the house was collecting moisture behind it (leading to some areas that were a bit bulbous and squishy). Are these fixable? It's a newly built house, like should I be pushing the seller/builder to address this issues or be knocking off some of the price? To my modest research both seem like they're not deal breakers but they're also surprising issues to have in a new home.
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Dec 28, 2020 22:10
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Motronic posted:Yeah, that's where you're at and sometimes it does cost. But the reason I'm asking you these questions is because there are multiple approaches and "this thing that's not very good that will need modification and repair anyway is in the way" has an obvious answer of "rip that thing out". Oh boy! Lot's is wrong with this place. I've considered my own thread in HCH but don't have the time to commit. Specifically in this bathroom, actually, these signs of water are the first real issues. The bathroom appears to have been originally installed when built in ~1990. I'm lucky enough to have the original plans signed off by the city. The PO did some kind of modifications at some point since they owned it (2001-2019) and by all accounts they are awful and incompetent. I couldn't say the specifically did anything in this bathroom though. So likely a bit of both old and bad. On the exterior, only the patio stone and parging is new, nothing along the affected walls has been redone, and no landscaping updates. I had this whole thing gutted to the studs for months and saw no water issues here. We had discovered cracks elsewhere so I actually was coming downstairs and inspecting the exposed concrete walls during and after every rain for most of that time. That said, because of shower mortar/tile that I just removed, it's possible (but unlikely) I missed something. In terms of straight/level... I'm not quite sure which is off. I'd wager both at this point. I fully expect to have a hell of a time dry walling, and expect to be mud framing to compensate. Like I said, I think all the issues with this place could be its own thread, but I'm not sure they are relevant to this specific issue. Lastly, I'd add the range of measurements come from different sections of the basement, not necessarily from the same base plate (or however you'd define wall section). So this bathroom is not that crooked. I'd say a typical offset was about 1" to 1-1/2". Also, I really appreciate your help! Even if it can't get me much further than this just having to explain it helps focus my thoughts.
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Dec 28, 2020 22:16
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Motronic posted:This is absolutely not the case universally. Glad I put that qualifier. That's been my experience this far, but maybe it actually is just regional? I might also not know what I am talking about of course.
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Dec 28, 2020 22:18
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Hubis posted:Glad I put that qualifier. That's been my experience this far, but maybe it actually is just regional? I might also not know what I am talking about of course. Are you in a place that requires flood insurance?
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Dec 28, 2020 22:22
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Less Fat Luke posted:First time home buyer and long lurker here... I've paid for an inspection on a detached house and I'm trying to gauge the severity of some issues. There was humidity detected behind a basement wall, and the outer cladding of the house was collecting moisture behind it (leading to some areas that were a bit bulbous and squishy). Are these fixable? It's a newly built house, like should I be pushing the seller/builder to address this issues or be knocking off some of the price? To my modest research both seem like they're not deal breakers but they're also surprising issues to have in a new home. What does "humidity detected behind a basement wall" mean and what is the exterior cladding? Honestly, moisture issues that aren't just a broken pipe are one of the hardest/most expensive issues to solve because they often reflect an issue with the construction choices made by the builder, so they result in systemic issues that often can't be addressed simply at their point of discovery.
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Dec 28, 2020 22:24
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Jenkl posted:Also, I really appreciate your help! Even if it can't get me much further than this just having to explain it helps focus my thoughts. No problem and.....no, I can't/won't be able to help much more. With the details you provided it sounds like you might be teetering over to the throwing good money after bad/goon in a well situation that so many other BFC homeowners have gone down and I'm just not willing to get involved anymore. Edit: my, my what a well timed post above by Tezer that addresses both what they were responding to and your situation.
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Dec 28, 2020 22:25
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Motronic posted:No problem and.....no, I can't/won't be able to help much more. With the details you provided it sounds like you might be teetering over to the throwing good money after bad/goon in a well situation that so many other BFC homeowners have gone down and I'm just not willing to get involved anymore. Yeah that's what I figured. Thanks though!
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Dec 28, 2020 22:28
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Tezer posted:What does "humidity detected behind a basement wall" mean and what is the exterior cladding? As for the the basement the inspectors used FLIR and found a large cool water deposit in a wall and used a moisture sensor (this one I believe) to find that there was water pooling there. And yeah water sounds like the most expensive kind of problem to fix. Edit: once I have the full PDF I'll provide more info Less Fat Luke fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Dec 28, 2020 |
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Dec 28, 2020 22:30
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Less Fat Luke posted:The outer wall of the house itself is covered in a mesh and then on top of that is the exterior cladding, I'm not sure what the material is itself. I'm waiting on the full report so maybe they'll have some more details. Is this place stucco/dryvit? Is it typical of other new construction homes in your area? How new is new? You're buying it form the builder? Or you're buying it from the first owner and it's still under warranty? Moisture issues on a new (or newish) home like this are indicative of poor workmanship. Imagine what the rest of the place is like/what will break next. We've got entire developments of stucco homes that need 6-figure repairs because of poor stucco installs from one of our local shitbox manufacturers.
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Dec 28, 2020 22:57
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Good call, yes the exterior exactly matches stucco (the textured material over the mesh). It's brand new from the builder and finished construction a month ago. It comes with a Tarion warranty that I just assume is garbage.
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Dec 28, 2020 23:02
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Less Fat Luke posted:Good call, yes the exterior exactly matches stucco (the textured material over the mesh). It's brand new from the builder and finished construction a month ago. It comes with a Tarion warranty that I just assume is garbage. Unless there are no other options, and possibly even then, I'm going to suggest you don't buy this home. Or any home from a builder that has these kinds of issues with a brand new home.
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Dec 28, 2020 23:13
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Motronic posted:Unless there are no other options, and possibly even then, I'm going to suggest you don't buy this home. Or any home from a builder that has these kinds of issues with a brand new home. Edit: Also the selling agent told me I didn't need an inspection cause of the warranty LOL Less Fat Luke fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Dec 28, 2020 |
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Dec 28, 2020 23:15
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Do not accept a house with known construction defects. It's like blood from a stone. Make the manufacturer repair their work then tank the deal.
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Dec 28, 2020 23:33
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Motronic posted:Unless there are no other options, and possibly even then, I'm going to suggest you don't buy this home. Or any home from a builder that has these kinds of issues with a brand new home. This is the right call. It's probably an EIFS style stucco system, which have failure issues. It can be installed right, but a huge number of houses have it installed wrong. It often fails by allowing water in behind the stucco without showing water damage on the exterior or interior, resulting in areas rotting out for years and years. If it's already showing problems, that's a bad situation. If it wasn't showing problems, I still recommend having it inspected by someone involved in stucco litigation (a subject matter expert) to figure out if it's one of the many problem installations. If you buy it anyways, install sensors to monitor sheathing moisture content especially under flashing at windows and areas where water coming off the roof may hit the stucco. Sound like a crazy amount of work and effort? Absolutely.
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Dec 28, 2020 23:34
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Tezer posted:This is the right call. It's probably an EIFS style stucco system, which have failure issues. It can be installed right, but a huge number of houses have it installed wrong. It often fails by allowing water in behind the stucco without showing water damage on the exterior or interior, resulting in areas rotting out for years and years. EFIS is exactly what I'm thinking. The the fact that it's this bad already tells me it was installed by whoever that subcontractor found hanging out in the home depot parking lot that day at 6 AM.
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Dec 28, 2020 23:40
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It's crazy too because the interior, wiring, plumbing, HVAC and so on were so well done. Like the inspectors had to really reach to find any complaints on the interior of the house but the walls seems like the last loving place to cheap out on.
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Dec 28, 2020 23:50
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Not expecting any reply just organizing some thoughts: Since I'll need to get the insulators back again I figured I'd cut in and figure out what was up behind the pictured area. * it is dry back there, which suggests water is from inside or coming up. * they missed a big chunk of that spot - the foam I put in went a long ways back. It also did not cure right as far as I can tell, suggesting a poor air seal in that area. * that area is well off the concrete, which I found interesting. I measured and it's at least 4" off, much more than I remembered. All this together is making me think it's a condensation problem impacting the part that was very poorly insulated and air sealed. It's worth noting that during very heavy rains there were no issues here. I think directing my resources there are decent idea and will balance time and money. I should also update my expectations on how long the build might last and how long well want to be here, if I can't resolve this with a great degree of certainty.
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Dec 28, 2020 23:57
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Less Fat Luke posted:It's crazy too because the interior, wiring, plumbing, HVAC and so on were so well done. Like the inspectors had to really reach to find any complaints on the interior of the house but the walls seems like the last loving place to cheap out on. Let me tell you how inspections work - they don't get to take anything apart. Issues need to be readily aparent and blatant. Most issues of those types will fall into two categories, especially on a new home: absolutely braindead easy and cheap punchlist items and super deal killers like foundation problems, the poo poo you found, etc. What does that leave? All the things that will start breaking as soon as the warranty is up. All the mid-term issues that are hidden in the walls. That drywall screw that got put in the soil stack going to the upstairs that 10 years from now you go "why does the living room always smell like poo poo these days?" and the backstabbed outlets that are failing at a higher and higher rate now that they've got some use on them. Or the drywall nail and tape pops. Oh my, there will be nail pops. It's about then you'll realize how lovely any of the non-upgraded fixtures were that they installed. Because while builder grade is a lot better now than it ever was in the last 20 years, it's still poo poo. Oh, sorry about that leak in the pex from the master bath that took out your kitchen ceiling. It was just a new clamp and a drywall patch, right? No biggie. Since you need to paint the entire ceiling to make it match anyway might as well take care of all of those nail pops.
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Dec 29, 2020 00:17
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Motronic posted:Let me tell you how inspections work - they don't get to take anything apart. Issues need to be readily aparent and blatant. Most issues of those types will fall into two categories, especially on a new home: absolutely braindead easy and cheap punchlist items and super deal killers like foundation problems, the poo poo you found, etc. Since you seem to know this stuff, is there any new construction that isn't terrible?
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Dec 29, 2020 00:46
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Residency Evil posted:Since you seem to know this stuff, is there any new construction that isn't terrible? Absolutely. But mass-market bulk developers probably aren't the place you want to look for that quality. Some new construction is fascinating and awesome. Even when it looks like old/trad construction. We've come a long way on building materials and methods - both good and bad. You want to find someone who is using the good parts of what we've learned, not the fast/cheap parts.
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Dec 29, 2020 00:49
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Oh I got to overhear my coworker who's getting a house built. Among her complaints was the base spec was lovely, the specific items were round knobs and toggle (not rocker) switches. I actually prefer both of those though. My cats can't turn a knob and my clothes can't get caught on them. I'm also very used to flipping toggles and paddles still field weird to just slap the wall.
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Dec 29, 2020 00:58
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