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Jakabite posted:Yeah this makes sense to me. I think the reason so many centrist lib types miss this is because to them politics was something that happened in the background and that was how they liked it - they didn’t have to take any notice of where things were heading because politics was something that happened to other people. A comment that stuck in my mind from the run-up to the 2017 GE was from someone who hated Corbyn 'because for the first time in my life I have to care about politics.' Meaning that they were worried that Labour were going to tax him more/give his tenants meaningful rights/increase trade union membership/guillotine him so now they were actually invested in the results of the GE and which parties were proposing what to stop that happening. It was so telling that they opened with hating Corbyn for making him have to care. If it had been 'I hate Corbyn because his policies would stifle my ability to make easy money off the backs of others' they'd still be a prick, but it would be rational self-interest. But instead the boiling resentment was because the bubble had been burst and now he had to care about politics which was just the worst thing imaginable. That's the 'I don't have an ideology  ' type in a nutshell.Edit: The Cessna 165 Airmaster is a family of single-engined aircraft manufactured by the Cessna Aircraft Company. The Airmaster played an important role in the revitalization of Cessna in the 1930s after the crash of the aviation industry during the Great Depression. BalloonFish fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Dec 29, 2020 |
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Dec 29, 2020 13:41
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since i had this open its always worth a read about centrists https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2020/01/13/the-center-blows-itself-up-care-and-spite-in-the-brexit-election/ and only becomes more true in light of the leaked labour report hopefully its not paywalled for people lol https://twitter.com/Sabrina_Huck/status/1343895850360201216?s=20
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Dec 29, 2020 13:43
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Jedit posted:You just incited me to want a takeaway, you rotten bastard. Entirely appropriate that no matter the meaning of my posts, the only substantial effect is based on the superficialities of the wording.
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Dec 29, 2020 13:44
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Jakabite posted:Yeah this makes sense to me. I think the reason so many centrist lib types miss this is because to them politics was something that happened in the background and that was how they liked it - they didn’t have to take any notice of where things were heading because politics was something that happened to other people. Good point about politics being in the background, and if Owen Smith had wrestled the leadership off Corbyn, and pressed the big STOP BREXIT button that definitely existed in the leader's office, then they would in fact have got their way... for a while at least. And that's all they want, to keep papering over the cracks like Gromit laying tracks in front of his moving "politics doesn't affect me" train.
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Dec 29, 2020 13:45
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josh04 posted:They're going to 'accidentally' run over the kids because they're too focussed on evil, the heroes fire the cruise missile so Wonder Woman can catch a tow.
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Dec 29, 2020 13:49
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Guavanaut posted:If we're doing this analogy, you still set your end goal at your ideal weight, nobody says "I wish I was one of the steps that I have to pass through", or if they do they end up doing nothing. Same as nobody genuinely looking to fix their alcoholism says "I wish I was merely drinking double the recommended amount each week". The weightloss analogy requires us to put on all the weight we've lost this year before we can start losing it again gradually, under the belief that only the last part of the plan is technically possible. Abandoning every positive change to the shape of modern working life is lunacy.
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Dec 29, 2020 13:51
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the person who wrote the article everyone has been discussing https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/1343633983104540674?s=20 https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/1343860703430635522?s=20
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Dec 29, 2020 13:55
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sinky posted:They can just keep adding tiers. https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1343900985450786817?s=20
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Dec 29, 2020 13:55
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josh04 posted:They're going to 'accidentally' run over the kids because they're too focussed on evil, the heroes fire the cruise missile so Wonder Woman can catch a tow. No way, there's no way it's that bad right? That would make Schwarzenegger and Van Damme embarrassed
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Dec 29, 2020 13:56
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What tier is Mad Max?
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Dec 29, 2020 13:56
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I enjoy that reading a thing and having thoughts about what a thing says are apparently entirely separate. Which, I suppose, is entirely consistent with the "don't have thoughts about what I wrote" argument.
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Dec 29, 2020 13:56
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jfc just do a lockdown. nobody is respecting the tiers because its not explicitly called a lockdown
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Dec 29, 2020 13:57
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radmonger posted:If you are morbidly obese and improve your diet and exercise, you still have to pass through stages of being obese and then overweight before you hit your ideal weight. By this logic Attlee should have spent 1945 frantically rebuilding slums and charity hospitals and encouraging 70-year-olds to get back down the steel mill.
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Dec 29, 2020 13:57
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There’s also the extremely pertinent point that all the sensible liberals are just so annoying. While the disaster capitalists and outright fascists run things and make bank and gently caress up people’s lives there’s this social scene of well preened centrists getting their crumbs, tittering at the silly fascists and the silly people who oppose them alike. Oh how droll! It winds me up in a way that an honest piece of pure evil like Patel or JRM doesn’t.
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Dec 29, 2020 14:04
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Jose posted:jfc just do a lockdown. nobody is respecting the tiers because its not explicitly called a lockdown I think at this point it would be cheaper and easier to just do a stay in place order and pay everyone a UBI for a month and get the military to distribute food. The whole trickle down stimulus thing is nonsense anyway, sure it's fine if you have a job but many people don't and also lots of jobs pay gently caress all
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Dec 29, 2020 14:06
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That assumes that the objective is societal benefit rather than funneling money to tories and ensuring that people keep going to work.
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Dec 29, 2020 14:08
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OwlFancier posted:That assumes that the objective is societal benefit rather than funneling money to tories and ensuring that people keep going to work. Yes I think there is a false premise underlying that statement tbh. Oh well, back to the serco punishment mines
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Dec 29, 2020 14:16
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OwlFancier posted:I enjoy that reading a thing and having thoughts about what a thing says are apparently entirely separate. People criticizing me criticizing things: intolerant woke cancel culture Prepared to expand this to 1,000 words in exchange for a regular column.
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Dec 29, 2020 14:27
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goddamnedtwisto posted:By this logic Attlee should have spent 1945 frantically rebuilding slums and charity hospitals and encouraging 70-year-olds to get back down the steel mill. "Liberal Beveridge-flavoured postwar-consensus ambitions but on a larger scale" as opposed to "actually-existing Bolsheviks who are, by then-observation, actually unexpectedly successful and prosperous" is maybe not the point against reformism you might think it is... Attlee did then rapidly absorb 1951 as a lesson that in fact any embrace of preserving wartime nationalization was a bridge too far etc.
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Dec 29, 2020 14:30
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Convex posted:I think at this point it would be cheaper and easier to just do a stay in place order and pay everyone a UBI for a month and get the military to distribute food. The whole trickle down stimulus thing is nonsense anyway, sure it's fine if you have a job but many people don't and also lots of jobs pay gently caress all This is what I think. We haven't had a proper lockdown by any means yet. There needs to be a 6 week block of curfews, checkpoints, food distribution, sensible+workable 'carer' provision for those who need it (and not including the 10% of carers someone mentioned on here a day or so ago who refuse to wear masks etc). Enforcement of mask wearing indoors and out (except in very limited cases of those who are not able to for whatever medical reason I am not qualified to say). And gently caress bubbles, many people don't understand or won't cooperate. And FGS - those numpties who say 'masks don't work' 'lockdowns don't work' - get the blasted BBC and news to do a proper job of explaining that they don't CURE the dratted thing they just help to prevent it being even worse. And you have to wear the mask AND socially distance as much as possible! (And keeping up with the weight loss analogies - these are probably the same numpties who say 'exercise doesn't help weight loss' - when it can't fail to. The reason they say 'it doesn't help' is not to do with the weight loss but because of human behavioural tendency to think walking up stairs 3 x allows them to scoff more. If you stick to the diet AND the exercise they work together.) (I'm in a ranty mood because I'm fed up of seeing idiots on Facebook including some of my 'friends' saying they refuse to take the sheeple precautions.) Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Dec 29, 2020 |
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Dec 29, 2020 14:44
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Hopping back in the thread a bit, this is most definitely a Hard Brexit by any reasonable definition. Yes, the most obvious collapse has been propped up by the tariff and quota-free movement of goods in the deal, but that's just a small part of the impact. No single market, no customs union, and with that comes all the nitty gritty detail that will at best inconvenience, and at worst destroy, a bunch of industries and niches that we've never even thought about. Like exporting live eels: https://twitter.com/barcajim3/status/1343857957193326593?s=21 (watch the video, worth it)
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Dec 29, 2020 14:49
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I'm not enormously keen on putting the country under martial law or entrusting my care tasks to some squaddie.
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Dec 29, 2020 14:50
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OwlFancier posted:I'm not enormously keen on putting the country under martial law or entrusting my care tasks to some squaddie. Not sure if you're responding to me but I'm not advocating either of those, it's more that I would expect the military to be best placed to be able to provide a distribution network covering the country without needing to involve private contractors. People should be allowed out for genuine emergencies, including where they have to care for someone else as part of their normal life, but the current 'go to work and the shops and ensure you order a scotch egg with your round' is only prolonging the crisis imo edit: I mean yes this is idealistic, as was already pointed out. I have no faith that the current government would do this even if the only alternative was half the country dying.
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Dec 29, 2020 14:55
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:And gently caress bubbles
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Dec 29, 2020 14:57
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Genuinely the reason the crisis is so bad is because boris took a two week vacation to tell his wife he was loving around and having another kid(s) and hence getting married again, and to tell his kids he still loves them but isn't seeing them any more because he has a new piece of rear end who doesn't live with them. As such our response was two+ weeks delayed, and pandemics are one of those things where they get worse exponentially.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:03
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radmonger posted:If you are morbidly obese and improve your diet and exercise, you still have to pass through stages of being obese and then overweight before you hit your ideal weight. If you wanna take morbid obesity as your example, this is like someone who's supposed to be a doctor writing about how the heart attack was loving awful and they look forward to the patient goign back to being morbidly obese again. The morbid obesity being the direct, provable cause of the heart attack. Whether or not it's an understandable emotion for a morbidly obese person who've had a heart attack to express, it's a dumb loving emotion for a DOCTOR to express.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:06
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Drone_Fragger posted:Genuinely the reason the crisis is so bad is because boris took a two week vacation to tell his wife he was loving around and having another kid(s) and hence getting married again, and to tell his kids he still loves them but isn't seeing them any more because he has a new piece of rear end who doesn't live with them. As such our response was two+ weeks delayed, and pandemics are one of those things where they get worse exponentially. But we see Sweden and the USA and others eating the same poo poo pie, so there's a deeper systemic reason too. thespaceinvader posted:Whether or not it's an understandable emotion for a morbidly obese person who've had a heart attack to express, it's a dumb loving emotion for a DOCTOR to express.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:10
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It’s a hard one because I’m generally pretty anarchist aligned but to be honest the pandemic and people’s (including most anarchists I know) reaction to it has massively swayed me away from that - I think an anarchic society is still my utopia but I’m starting to think it is just that. Non-hierarchy can wait until we have like, decent living standards and a vaguely sensible society. Handle the high concept stuff later, yknow. Anyway bit of a tangent there but my original point was going to be that as leery as I am of getting the army to do stuff or having checkpoints, if you’re going to have a state you may as well use it.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:13
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OwlFancier posted:I'm not enormously keen on putting the country under martial law or entrusting my care tasks to some squaddie. If you were responding to me - I wasn't envisaging squaddies doing the caring, just the distributions of food & other essentials!
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Dec 29, 2020 15:13
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Guavanaut posted:Also because he didn't care and it took 14 days of scientists shouting at him, so it was actually 4 weeks delayed from the WHO pandemic response. It wasn't my example in the first place  I think this particular article frustrated a lot of us because with that kind of platform, writing the 'COVID shows us that the status quo ante is loving broken, here's how and why we shouldn't go back to the old normal and should make this an opportunity to build a new one' articles would have been what we'd have done, rather than the 'COVID sucked, continue oppressing me, I must have poo poo coffee and work in a crowded office full of other peoples' germs an absolutely zero analysis of the reasons why it was so loving bad' one that we got.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:18
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goddamnedtwisto posted:By this logic Attlee should have spent 1945 frantically rebuilding slums and charity hospitals and encouraging 70-year-olds to get back down the steel mill. Thing is, he spent the years up until 1945 helping ensure Britain was not losing a war to Nazi Germany. Only having done so, restoring the pre-war status quo, did he and his colleagues try to fix the issues with that status quo. So, e.g. welfare state measures like the NHS were proposed as the solution to the spiral of depression into war that had dominated the last 2 decades. Success with fixing one problem won them a mandate to apply them. And yes, they did plan and think that through beforehand; you do need that vision, an answer to the question ‘what will stop the bad things just happening again?’ In contrast, there were former socialists, like Mosely, who took the side of Nazi Germany precisely because they saw that as the way of the future. nazification was not a thing that could be undone, rewound or defeated, but used. You can certainly learn things from the pandemic; you can make a direct analogy between ‘women proving themselves capable of doing factory jobs’ and ‘homeworkers proving themselves capable of doing office jobs’. But, at the top level, COVID remains a thing to be defeated, which inherently means a move back towards the pre-COVID status quo.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:19
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:If you were responding to me - I wasn't envisaging squaddies doing the caring, just the distributions of food & other essentials! Then you run into the problem that a lot of the care in the country is done by extended family and friends, there is an entire policy surrounding it. So if you prevent people from doing that then you're expecting the finite amount of carers who already do not have enough time to suddenly take on massively more workload. And to be quite honest I already trust carers about as far as I can throw them because most of the ones I've had to deal with have been incentivized to do the bare minimum because they're paid like poo poo and spread too thin anyway.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:21
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I'm really worried my mum is going to rot away in a care home because of the new wage threshold coming in on 1st January. Shes been healthy enough to leave for months but can't go home at the moment because there aren't enough residential carers for her to have a care package, and it's only going to get worse.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:27
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thespaceinvader posted:I think this particular article frustrated a lot of us because with that kind of platform, writing the 'COVID shows us that the status quo ante is loving broken, here's how and why we shouldn't go back to the old normal and should make this an opportunity to build a new one' articles would have been what we'd have done, rather than the 'COVID sucked, continue oppressing me, I must have poo poo coffee and work in a crowded office full of other peoples' germs an absolutely zero analysis of the reasons why it was so loving bad' one that we got.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:28
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jiggerypokery posted:Who are the esteemed posters who make this? I like it much better than this thread, op  Guavanaut posted:Yes, that's my take on it. Commentary should be full of bold Inventing the Future type stuff, instead it's moribund "can't wait to get back to the poo poo that made us unable to cope with this poo poo" poo poo. If you want a picture of the future, imagine Toby Young smashing his fingers across a keyboard - forever
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Dec 29, 2020 15:37
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OwlFancier posted:Then you run into the problem that a lot of the care in the country is done by extended family and friends, there is an entire policy surrounding it. So if you prevent people from doing that then you're expecting the finite amount of carers who already do not have enough time to suddenly take on massively more workload. And to be quite honest I already trust carers about as far as I can throw them because most of the ones I've had to deal with have been incentivized to do the bare minimum because they're paid like poo poo and spread too thin anyway. Yes, this needs to be sorted out. Proper recruitment, training and paying of carers.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:37
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Lungboy posted:I'm really worried my mum is going to rot away in a care home because of the new wage threshold coming in on 1st January. Shes been healthy enough to leave for months but can't go home at the moment because there aren't enough residential carers for her to have a care package, and it's only going to get worse. What is this new wage threshold? I seem to have missed that?
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Dec 29, 2020 15:38
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I would guess perhaps it is a change to immigration rules that prevent people from staying in the UK unless they earn enough money, which carers don't.
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Dec 29, 2020 15:43
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Starmer's "I am sad at the bad things you are doing" shtick relies on him doing absolutely nothing to oppose or warn of the bad things before they happen, because then how would he capitalise on the badness and sadness afterwards. This is smart actually because (continued in the Guardian, every page)Jose posted:jfc just do a lockdown. nobody is respecting the tiers because its not explicitly called a lockdown
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Dec 29, 2020 15:44
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All current EU carers can remain in the UK. The problem is that care homes find it cheaper to just burn through hordes of european workers rather than invest in actually keeping a workforce around, and that tap of new carers is shut (and local brits quite reasonably try to do anything but care work under current conditions)
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