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Southpaugh posted:You've always been a very stupid poster but I think you're surpassing yourself. Like you just threw a bunch of stats at us as if stats mean a loving thing? Just admit that you don't like the idea that Ireland is a racist shithole and that all of this bloviating dismissive shite you're talking is because you don't want to admit that cops in this country are the exact same as in every other country. If your best argument is "I don't like the facts because they don't agree with my feelings, stats don't mean a thing" then your opinion is pretty much the definition of incorrect (and terrible). The cops in Ireland are very clearly statistically much, much less bad than those in other countries. So for what its worth your argument is also incredibly insulting to people around the world who actually do suffer from police racism and brutality. Maybe...you're the real racist after all?  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 4, 2021 20:35
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You really are ticking all the bad faith boxes in right wing rhetorical discourse. Facts do not indeed care about my feelings.
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Jan 4, 2021 20:54
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I particularly like where he imported the whole "live with your mother" thing as if we don't know that a quarter of people under 40 are stuck doing that due to consistent government failures.
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Jan 4, 2021 21:02
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Just don't look, just don't look
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Jan 4, 2021 21:07
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I have to say that I have always found the guards very approachable but I must qualify this by stating that I am a white male and also that my frame of reference is the PSNI who have a tendency to make Judge Dredd look like a big powder puff
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Jan 4, 2021 21:48
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Also i only needed to approach one, once, come to think about it but there was another one and he helped
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Jan 4, 2021 22:03
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All posts must include a pie chart or flow chart or else we're going to have trouble.
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Jan 4, 2021 22:29
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Well in Brazil the cops would have confiscated your ribcage or whatever so you're never allowed to complain about cops here, ever, I guess
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Jan 4, 2021 22:29
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There can only be one Worse Cops, in one country, at any one time.
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Jan 4, 2021 22:52
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Blut is the guy in the grey cap in that garda dart video. just google "garda dart video" I don't want to post it
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Jan 4, 2021 23:19
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Actually I believe all you SJW basement dwelling Irish teens will find that facts don’t care about your feelings.
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Jan 5, 2021 00:27
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Arquinsiel posted:I particularly like where he imported the whole "live with your mother" thing as if we don't know that a quarter of people under 40 are stuck doing that due to consistent government failures. If someones 25+ and living with their parents its pretty safe to say the only one whos failed them is themselves. Its not hard to rent a room in a houseshare even with Dublin's ridiculous rents as long as you're some sort of semi-competent working adult. Cicadalek posted:Well in Brazil the cops would have confiscated your ribcage or whatever so you're never allowed to complain about cops here, ever, I guess Well, yes actually. This is part of my point. I figured I'd let the lecturing continue for a while more before mentioning this, but I'm a non-white person living in Ireland, whos actually lived in a country - Brasil - where if I was pulled over by the police I would fear for my life. Because there would be reasonably high odds of them beating, mugging, or killing me. Which is absolutely not the case with the gardai, who I have no fear of dealing with - because they actually don't randomly beat or kill people based on the colour of their skin, despite what some posters in this thread are claiming. So when a bunch of privileged white people start lecturing me on how terrible and racist the gardai are it just comes across either naive, idiotic, or condescending. Or all of the above I guess. Because they've clearly never actually experienced police racism/brutality, so have no idea what it really looks like. And claiming the gardai practice it, when they very clearly don't, just legitimizes the terrible actions of police forces around the world that actually do practice it.
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Jan 5, 2021 01:07
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Or maybe those 25+ year olds are getting their feet in the door of the working world and trying to save up for a mortgage and don't want to be trapped in the rental market that can make saving a nightmare.quote:So when a bunch of privileged white people start lecturing me on how terrible and racist the gardai are it just comes across either naive, idiotic, or condescending. Or all of the above I guess. Because they've clearly never actually experienced police racism/brutality, so have no idea what it really looks like. And claiming the gardai practice it, when they very clearly don't, just legitimizes the terrible actions of police forces around the world that actually do practice it. Quick question: How many people need to be killed by / abused by the Gardai before we can hold them accountable? Also, how do claims of racism or brutality in Ireland somehow legitimize other Worse Cops (TM)? Please provide answers in the form of a pie chart of flow chart.
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Jan 5, 2021 01:20
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If 75%+ of their peers can apparently move out, including lots of people on minimum wage, then its obviously eminently doable. Blaming the government for living in your mom's house in your 30s is an excuse to not accept personal responsibility for your own life's failures. Well given the gardai have killed 1 black man, total, in the last 100 years so I'd say considerably more than that would be required to make it systemic racism. Claims that the gardai are racist and brutal legitimize the behaviour of other, far worse, police forces because its then used as an excuse for the far worse police forces. "Police forces all around the world suffer from the exact same problems you see, this is not a uniquely American/Brasilian/wherever problem. There is nothing we can do to fix it, so why even try?". Whereas when you're honest and admit some select/rare police forces - including the gardai - actually have excellent records on racism it provides something to use as a weapon against the actually racist police forces. "Not all cops have to be like that, look at the successful example of the Irish police where black people don't fear being pulled over by the police". And/or you can bring in police from the good police forces to change the culture of the bad police forces, when you admit this is actually worth doing. Not to mention that it completely cheapens the life experience of victims who've actually suffered from police abuse. "oh yes we've all suffered, all police are equally bad"... no, I can assure you they very much are not.
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Jan 5, 2021 01:32
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60% of people dont get cancer, therefore not getting cancer is eminently doable and anyone who does is not taking responsibility for their own life.
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Jan 5, 2021 01:41
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I hate you Blut.
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Jan 5, 2021 02:17
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The Gardai are absolutely not an honest force for good and I have zero idea where you are getting that notion from. While I cannot talk specifically about race myself, being white, I can talk about the issues with the Gardai in regards to sexuality and for women's issues. My first experience with the Gardai, of which I have had more than a few with my family, were them refusing to file charges against my abusive father. They said, despite my mother having a broken nose and a black eye, there was not enough evidence and that they don't concern themselves with issues within the family. This was not some story because my father had connections with the local Gardai or anything - they just flat out refused to acknowledge issues of spousal abuse. Specifically, with regards to LGBT policing, it was not until the last 10 years that even a plurality of gay men were comfortable coming forward to the Gardai about being blackmailed. In my conversations with men who have experienced this, and with LGBT groups when researching this history, they were not scared that they would be outed by the blackmailer, they were scared that the Guard that they spoke to would also begin blackmailing them, a concern which was legitimate. Other than that, they were afraid that the Guard would just out them anyway, which was far more common and likely contributed to several suicides. Beyond this, we can look at the Ombudsmen that the Gardai appoint to liaise with minority groups. When NXF approached the Gardai on appointing a liaison officer for the LGBT community, and I stress that this is what I have been told happened, the Gardai Captain who was there at the moment grabbed a random officer who passed by and promoted him to the position right in front of them. I believe that this is true, not because of my own biases towards the Gardai, but because of the my respect of the person who told me this story, a person who does give the Gardai the benefit of the doubt. In short, just because our police force might be better than those of other nations, it does not mean that they are good. Of course I would rather approach a Guard than an American police officer, but that doesn't mean our institution doesn't grapple with racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and xenophobia with specific regards to the Traveling community. There are still fundamental issues that need to be dealt with. Making the point that this is the "first" black person killed by Gardai in 100 years in a completely asinine and ahistorical point. Non-White racism is a relatively new issue for Irish people in general, aside from small pockets of people who may have emigrated into Dublin. It is now, in these moments, that we set the tone for which we will treat these people. We should be erring on the side of caution, especially when we consider the history the Gardai have with dealing with other minorities within Ireland.
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Jan 5, 2021 02:17
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Blut posted:If someones 25+ and living with their parents its pretty safe to say the only one whos failed them is themselves. Its not hard to rent a room in a houseshare even with Dublin's ridiculous rents as long as you're some sort of semi-competent working adult.
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Jan 5, 2021 02:33
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Living with family to save up a deposit, if you're able to, rather than just giving the lion's share of your income to a predatory landlord at the earliest opportunity in life shows a lack of personal responsibility.
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Jan 5, 2021 09:12
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I'd argue based on the number of black people Gardai have interacted with as a proportion of interactions even if there's systemic racism you're pretty unlikely to be be able to get statistical evidence versus unfortunate accident. Basically it's such an edge case, and that Gardai killing anyone is already an edge case, that relying on statistics is pretty useless since numbers are too small to differentiate between a trend and an outlier. Blut seems to think, being a charitable reading, that racism or corruption necessarily require the kind of active bigotry you see in the worst portrayals of American cops where they actively single out and harass/kill minorities for fun. Corruption he's judging by the standards of Brazilian police. Neither of those are true and Ireland as a nation definitely has a racism issue that is largely not acknowledged by people because there's been so little exposure to it. I have a friend who moved back to Ireland with his Argentinean wife. They left after a couple of years because she couldn't deal with people assuming she was her daughter's nanny all the time, as a single example of a pattern of behaviour from people who would assure you that they're not racist and she was just too touchy.
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Jan 5, 2021 09:39
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Blut posted:If someones 25+ and living with their parents its pretty safe to say the only one whos failed them is themselves. Its not hard to rent a room in a houseshare even with Dublin's ridiculous rents as long as you're some sort of semi-competent working adult. That's almost word-for-word what Thatcher said about car ownership. You, my friend, are a certifiable Total oval office 
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Jan 5, 2021 10:51
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I would like to stress for a moment both As in ACAB, and ACAB should be your default mode when dealing with any police force of any size, shape, colour or creed. And I say that while being related to Gards
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Jan 5, 2021 11:24
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It's exciting for the Irish Politics thread to have your own Pissflaps. Congratulations.
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Jan 5, 2021 11:32
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forkboy84 posted:It's exciting for the Irish Politics thread to have your own Pissflaps. Congratulations. It's not a good feeling tho, I don't like it
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Jan 5, 2021 12:04
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I'm not too sure if Blut has said anything worth Redtexting them over, that's when you know they've made it to Pissflap's level.
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Jan 5, 2021 12:12
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I know it's very, "I hate all people equally," but I think it's actually true with the guards. They have a pervasive level of, "Everyone I deal with is a poo poo who I'm going to gently caress up if they don't respect me," versus a particularly targeted, "This specific group of people are shits who I go out of my way to gently caress up."
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Jan 5, 2021 12:24
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Mrenda posted:I know it's very, "I hate all people equally," but I think it's actually true with the guards. They have a pervasive level of, "Everyone I deal with is a poo poo who I'm going to gently caress up if they don't respect me," versus a particularly targeted, "This specific group of people are shits who I go out of my way to gently caress up." Just from what I have heard from Gardai friends/ family members of guards, I definitely do not think this is true for all guards. At the very least, travellers do not get treated the same as everyone else.
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Jan 5, 2021 12:30
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Mrenda posted:I know it's very, "I hate all people equally," but I think it's actually true with the guards. They have a pervasive level of, "Everyone I deal with is a poo poo who I'm going to gently caress up if they don't respect me," versus a particularly targeted, "This specific group of people are shits who I go out of my way to gently caress up."  This is absurdly blinkered
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Jan 5, 2021 12:31
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Fun thing, even if you do hate all people equally, you can still know who you can get away with ignoring and abusing!
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Jan 5, 2021 13:15
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Fun thing, even if you do hate all people equally, you can still know who you can get away with ignoring and abusing! Oh yeah, absolutely. They'll know who they can get away with treating worse, but their view is very much "guards first."
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Jan 5, 2021 13:38
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Skull Servant posted:The Gardai are absolutely not an honest force for good and I have zero idea where you are getting that notion from. Nobody in this thread has been talking about sexuality or women's issues. Multiple posters have been claiming the gardai are systemically racist, are fascists, are paramilitaries, deploy excessive violence etc. Which is what I have a huge problem with, because when you compare them to other police forces around the world the gardai are literally one of the world's least racist, least fascist, and least violent. This is born out both by statistics, and by the personal experiences of many many not-white people in Ireland, including myself. So when white people like yourself start lecturing me as a non-white person on how they know better about how police racism works its both factually incorrect, and insanely condescending. I've personally experienced actual systemically racist, brutally violent police - and the gardai are very much not that.
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Jan 5, 2021 13:42
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My god you are dense. Even if the Gardai are the "least" racist compared to other police forces that does not automatically absolve them of the xenophobia, sexism, and homophobia they clearly demonstrate. The reason why I brought up their relations with women and LGBT people is because you cannot look at their dealings with one minority as if it is a vacuum. The Gardai have a long history of abusing their power. You cannot with good conscious say "well yes they have been awful with regards to LGBT people and women but I'm sure they are perfectly non-racist!" Stop and realise we are approaching this knowing members of the Gardai, having negative experiences with the Gardai. Good for you that you haven't had a bad experience with them, but your experience is not universal.
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Jan 5, 2021 14:01
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They don't clearly demonstrate xenophobia. The gardai have a significantly more problematic relationship with home-grown, white, Irish travelers than they do with brown foreign people. You can keep trying to move the goal posts here to include sexism and homophobia, but my point from the start has been there is no evidence of the gardai being systemically racist and excessively violent towards not-white peple. And so calling them such is both completely incorrect, and an insult to people in the US, or Brasil, or elsewhere that suffer under actually violently racist police forces. And when you say "all police are as bad as each other" it makes it much, much harder to improve the ones that are actually bad - because it legitimizes their bad behaviour.
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Jan 5, 2021 14:11
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Your argument is you can't call the Gardai racist because you have to compare them with police forces outside of Ireland and doing so is detrimental to fights against racism in those other countries? Like, if I wanted to argue that out of Irish institutions the Gards are more racist and treat minorities worse than, random example, benefits officers then you can't argue that makes them racist because there exist even worse institutions in other countries. Your argument seems to present a kind of race to the bottom situation, where protestors in the US can point to police in Brazil and shout down BLM as being damaging to anti corruption and anti racist efforts in Brazil. Like, yes it's fine to point out that racism exists in forms, and I'd say anti traveler sentiment is pretty indicative of institutional racism. Travelers are an ethnic group within Ireland. The fact that they're also white and, say, in Brazil wouldn't be differentiated doesn't really change that. Honestly your posting comes across as someone has grown up in a genuinely worse foreign system and are just applying those standards to Ireland, including perceptions of minorities. You can argue it's myopic to judge performance and standards against a goal state but arguing that we need some global ranking and can't use terms like racist unless the police force is in the top 10 worst out whatever is just plain weird.
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Jan 5, 2021 15:10
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The thing we all famously know about bigoted racists is that they strictly apply those prejudices to one single defined group and are totally chill with everyone else that they perceive as different from them
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Jan 5, 2021 15:14
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@Blut Can I ask if you think the Gardai would remain as non-violent if it was an armed force?
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Jan 5, 2021 15:51
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EmmyOk posted:@Blut That's like asking would a sober alcoholic stay as sober if you gave them infinite booze. Normalise guns pretty much anywhere and there'll be an increase in gun violence. The choice to keep away from guns isn't something that should be downplayed.
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Jan 5, 2021 16:03
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Blut posted:They don't clearly demonstrate xenophobia. The gardai have a significantly more problematic relationship with home-grown, white, Irish travelers than they do with brown foreign people.
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Jan 5, 2021 16:51
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So when I mentioned Abbeylara in an earlier post you glossed over it because presumably you didn't live in Ireland in the year 2000? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_John_Carthy Presumably you are unfamiliar with the events that led to the Morris Tribunal? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Tribunal There are also many many more examples of garda malfeasance. You don't get to point at somewhere like brasil and say "atleast the gardai aren't as bad as them" as if that absolves the gardai in some way. To reiterate the point, a man was killed by the gardai, who are armed civil servants ( and paramilitaries, but you know, what would anyone who grew up on the island of Ireland know about paramilitaries?). The gardai failed to de-escalate the situation, and rather than manhandling him to the ground, which I assure you is doable with minimal risk for the gardai involved, they executed him in cold blood. That could have been me or you. Southpaugh fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jan 5, 2021 |
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Jan 5, 2021 17:43
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MrNemo posted:Your argument is you can't call the Gardai racist because you have to compare them with police forces outside of Ireland and doing so is detrimental to fights against racism in those other countries? No, my argument is simply the gardai are not racist. Based on every statistic we have, and not just my own anecdotal evidence - or personal expectations/experience. And that claiming they're racist brutes, when they very clearly aren't, is both factually incorrect and damaging because it legitimizes other police forces that are racist brutes. And that its frankly insulting to lots of people people who do get literally tortured and murdered by police officers for the colour of their skin. To put it in an economic context: people in this thread calling the gardai racist, violent, paramilitaries are like someone complaining repeatedly about how hard their life struggle is as a millionaire, to someone whos homeless. Can you see why that would be both ridiculous, factually questionable, and mildly insulting? Theres no problem comparing the US vs Brasil, because the police in both states very clearly have well proven problems with violence and racism. My point is not "only the worst police count/can be judged", its "you need to acknowledge having one of the least violent, least racist police forces on the planet in the gardai - calling them violently racist is insane". Travelers are unfortunately heavily discriminated against based on their culture and economic class, but they're no more a different race than Catholics are to Protestants in Northern Ireland. Or Polish people are to Irish people. They have genetic differences to settled Irish, but they're still white people. Arquinsiel posted:Nice trick there, changing from "racism" to "xenophobia". Totally lets you off the hook for the very thing you then cite being evidence against your position unless any of us are familiar with the difference between the two words. Bad luck for you that we are though. Ah I see you struggle with reading comprehension - is that possibly why you can't succeed in life and still live with your mother? I was responding directly to the poster above that post that used the term "xenophobia", I did not bring it up. Gardai treatment of travelers is nothing to do with race, given travelers are white people - see above. Its cultural and economic discrimination, but they're very different beasts - my point, very clearly from the start, has been solely to do with racism. EmmyOk posted:@Blut I would assume they'd keep their current structural issues (mild corruption/incompetence), and their current lack of racism (thankfully), but obviously arming any police force will increase the number of people shot by them - if only because of the wider availability of firearms. Tools that are available to use get used. But given they're not going around beating/tazing/pepper spraying black people randomly now, so I don't think they'd start going around randomly shooting black people if armed either, no. Southpaugh posted:So when I mentioned Abbeylara in an earlier post you glossed over it because presumably you didn't live in Ireland in the year 2000? I've been living in Ireland since long before 2000. And I grew up in Ireland, and have a degree in politics from an Irish university, so I know plenty about Irish history thanks. I've just also lived in other countries where police racism is an actual problem (including Brasil). But thanks for the condescending "whitesplaining", or whatever the equivalent word should be. Its nice to know that you think because I'm not white I must have no knowledge of Irish history. I ignored both points because they have nothing to do with the point I've made repeatedly, since the start, which is that the gardai aren't systemically violently racist paramilitaries - as posters ITT have claimed. They absolutely have a whole host of other problems. Its not "minimal risk" to manhandle an armed, furious man with a knife. Literally ask anyone who teaches self-defense and they'll show you how hard and dangerous it is. And they did not "execute" him. Like literally lol to both of those. The gardai formed a moving cordon around him, they attempted to negotiate, they used non-lethal means (both pepper spraying and tazering him), and only finally shot him when there were no other options and was a dangerous to those around him. Your ridiculous claiming how this was an "execution" is exactly what I mean when I say it cheapens the deaths of innocent people who've actually suffered from violent police racism, who've actually been executed by police. And completely devalues what you're saying, because you clearly have no idea what an actual police execution of an innocent man because of the colour of his skin looks like. I'll give you a hint: it doesn't involve a violent crime spree before the police arrive, negotiation, gradual escalation of non-violent means, and finally being shot when you literally attempt to stab a police officer.
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Jan 5, 2021 20:35
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