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Allow me to present a counterpoint: gently caress racists and gently caress cops
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Jan 7, 2021 10:21
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mutants using their powers to intimidate rear end in a top hat cops is what happens pretty much every time they interact with cops that aren't charlotte jones. this is not a new thing.
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Jan 7, 2021 15:55
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BrianWilly posted:Look, there are a lot of laws that really suck, and there are other laws that are in place for a reason. And as cathartic as it is to opine online about punching fascists and so forth, I also strongly feel that "You can't actually attack someone just because they made you mad" is a pretty good rule that protects a lot of people and if you ignore that rule there should be consequences. If the past twenty-four hours has shown anything it's that what's allowed or not shouldn't be decided by people who think they get to do anything they want just because they're mad. What happened yesterday was a coordinated attempt at a coup by right wing white supremacist fascists with the express permission of cops. And your argument is we shouldn't punch racists just for being racist? That happened because we let people be openly racist with no consequences.
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Jan 7, 2021 21:21
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I don't personally believe in valorizing or romanticizing using physical force, this gets me a lot of poo poo in many places but it's something I try to abide by (probably as much out of cowardice and recognizing that I'm a tiny, ill lady, if I'm being frank, as much as by real ethical grounding). I have used what I'd consider violent force twice in my adult life and I feel sick to my stomach when I think about either of them even though on a rational level they were both self defense (I elbowed an alt-right guy who was shoving me at a protest and I shoved some random guy who grabbed me and was trying to drag me into a car at night) so I get where Brian Willy is coming from (if I had a dime for every rote "punch a nazi" tweet by white guys who probably just sit and politely chew their food at dinner with racist relatives I'd be rich, and I think in general people need to be putting a lot more thought into how they theorize and orient themselves towards the issue of violence and stop treating it like a neat meme) but for goodness sake read the room. Superhero comics are fantasies and to a certain extent they are fantasies about being able to right wrongs that one would ordinarily not have any power over. Superman can burst through the wall and stop an abusive husband from hitting his wife. The X-Men can stop bigots when the bigots have invented giant pink robots. It feels good in a primal way, as a marginalized person, to imagine being protected in that way. This is why comics are popular with children, people who are vulnerable in almost every sense. It scratches an itch to see a scene in which a man with institutional power, upon calling a child disgusting, gets shown that his power has limits. Comparing this with yesterday's disgraceful cod-insurrection is extraordinarily disingenuous. Brian Willy, you've mentioned that you're a gay man, so I imagine that you've dealt with a lot of harrassment and maybe even violence, so I believe that when you're making this argument you're making it from a place of principles instead of just oblivious obsequious privilege, so I want to earnestly ask you how you would've written this scene? Should Polaris have told the cop off? Should she have just let it lie and talked to Eyeboy about it in a later scene? Perhaps you think that the brief exchange between Rachel and Eyeboy was sufficient. I think these are all valid cases to make but I also don't think Williams was egregiously crossing a generic or narrative line by having Polaris lift a guy up in and then drop him in mud. If you do I won't say that you're wrong but I will say that I find it a curious line to draw in a genre that's almost entirely predicated on people solving problems with physical violence (which is an entirely different but just as valid conversation to have, but not in this thread probably). How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jan 7, 2021 |
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Jan 7, 2021 22:01
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It would probably come across differently if the X-Men weren't setting themselves up as future gods of Planet Earth with a strong vibe of "we look forward of doing to you what you did to us."
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Jan 7, 2021 23:30
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That you're not allowed to physically attack someone no matter what they say to you is not a strange obnoxious concept on, like, the Earth Planet so I really shouldn't have to "read the room" before tossing it out. We can't have it both ways. We can't tut-tut the scum who used violence for the expressed purpose of disrupting the lawful processes of the country in one breath, and then declare in the next that laws are pointless unimportant things and that everyone should just use violence to accomplish their heart's desire. Of course you should stop someone from beating their wife. Of course you should use whatever means necessary to stop giant killer robots. Those are clear and obvious attempts at violence themselves, proportionate response is completely justified. But someone simply saying words -- how matter how vile -- is something else entirely, the distinction is very important, and it's even more especially important for superhero comics directed towards children to make that distinction even at the height of their power fantasies...a distinction which they absolutely have made in the past, I don't know what comics haven't. With great power comes great responsibragablah and whatnot. I think I recall that you've been a teacher, HW; what would you say to a student about this scene? Go ahead and punch back against someone calling you names? There've also been miles of meta here about how Krakoa is this insightful cautionary tale and how we're supposed to find it uncomfortable and that every objection anyone could ever have about how they do things there is part of "the point," so I don't see what's so sketch about questioning just how much these new anti-human doctrines have been affecting these characters -- and maybe even the readers -- without anyone even realizing it. I'd honestly accept "This is Polaris, she's always been a loose cannon" as a counterpoint before "This is how the X-Men should be, this is how they've always been" which is absolutely not true and I've got the receipts ready to go if anyone really cares. I could keep the scene as is, and I'd absolutely have someone else -- maybe even Eye-Boy himself -- point out this disparity. It's unsettling that every character was just okay with this sort of response, that it's apparently just the new normal going forward. And all this isn't even remembering that Daken drew his claws on some poor guy earlier and no one seemed to care. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Jan 8, 2021 |
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Jan 7, 2021 23:53
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Haven't read the book but this sounded more like a pantsing than anything I would call violence. Not that that isn't a violation.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:09
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BrianWilly posted:And all this isn't even remembering that Daken drew his claws on some poor guy earlier and no one seemed to care. Because they knew he couldn't kill the racist officer. They all know about Sabertooth. They all know the Krakoan laws. And they all know a threat is the only thing the racist officer would understand. These characters aren't supposed to be perfect: they aren't classic saint Xavier, and they aren't the Brotherhood. They are people in the middle. And that's rather well portrayed.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:15
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Saoshyant posted:Because they knew he couldn't kill the racist officer. They all know about Sabertooth. They all know the Krakoan laws. And they all know a threat is the only thing the racist officer would understand.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:17
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BrianWilly posted:This particular guy wasn't the racist officer in question. This was a guy just doing his job collecting samples. It was    samples guy fainted when he saw Amazing Baby, and the gumshoe lady is the one trying to talk him down.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:32
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Rick posted:This is interesting. I don't think one of the things Moria tried was to work with the robots. There was a scene in HoXPoX where Apocalypse says "Robots are inevitable, but are evil robots inevitable?" That makes me think there might be something to this.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:35
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The idea that there are no words someone could say that would justify a physical response is a level of pacifiscism I don't agree with. And equating pushing over a bully with loving insurrection of a government is quite frankly insulting. Part of this X-Men run is fully acknowledging they've experienced more trauma than almost any real life analog it's often used as a metaphor. Like, if Genosha was real that's objectively more horrible than the Holocaust and in universe that happened at most 5-10 years ago, the comics it happened in were published about 20 years ago. I also really have no problem with comics that have a moral of "don't say terrible poo poo to people, you might get punched." I finally got the issue we're talking about since Diamond didn't deliver to my store yesterday so as to the specifics that started this conversation: Eyeboy isn't 12 (late teens, early twenties probably) and he's probably heard a lot worse, but the fact that he's not a child and that he's heard it worse doesn't make hearing that poo poo less terrible. Polaris did what she did precisely because she knew Eyeboy would never do that, and loving lol if you think that's the most morally questionable thing that happened in this issue.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:36
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Abroham Lincoln posted:samples guy fainted when he saw Amazing Baby, and the gumshoe lady is the one trying to talk him down. 
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Jan 8, 2021 00:36
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BrianWilly posted:Nope. well then it sounds like samples guy was violating Krakoan law and he got off light. 
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Jan 8, 2021 00:38
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BrianWilly posted:Nope. Daken is not attacking the guy.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:39
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True, I pull knives on people all the time too.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:41
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BrianWilly posted:True, I pull knives on people all the time too. What are you mad at? That they stopped the guy by being intimidating because they thought he was gonna cut up Siryn? Or that they made a jerk fly in the air and drop him down, causing no injury?
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Jan 8, 2021 00:43
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BrianWilly posted:Nope. They treated samples guy badly, but there's also a history of samples being taken from dead mutants and using those samples to make kill bots that kill a poo poo ton of mutants, which Daken is intimately familiar with. Daken pushed the samples guy away from the body and bared his claws to make it clear they shouldn't come closer. Abrupt and unnecessary, probably, but unwarranted.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:44
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Per [literally all my post], I think this team being disproportionately aggressive towards humans is noteworthy and troubling and wanted to know if others thought the same. Evidently not.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:46
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Codependent Poster posted:Daken is not attacking the guy. This is neither here nor there, but I'm pretty sure the forensic tech was a woman.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:47
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Skwirl posted:Eyeboy isn't 12 (late teens, early twenties probably) Well, I do remember him mentioning having come from public school just as he enrolled in Jean Grey's school (W&XM), so I imagined him younger than a high schooler. According to wiki, he was actually 15 then. And I imagine it's only been a year, two at most, since those events.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:51
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BrianWilly posted:Per [literally all my post], I think this team being disproportionately aggressive towards humans is noteworthy and troubling and wanted to know if others thought the same. Evidently not. Half that scene is Northstar constantly apologizing to the lead detective for the actions of people who have spent a good chunk of their time as villains.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:52
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Saoshyant posted:Well, I do remember him mentioning having come from public school just as he enrolled in Jean Grey's school (W&XM), so I imagined him younger than a high schooler. According to wiki, he was actually 15 then. If we go off Hickman's Avengers, canonically there's been at least 16 months since every comic that came out before secret wars and every comic that came out after secret wars. I should reread the last Gen X, that would probably give a good idea of how old he's supposed to be.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:54
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Skwirl posted:Half that scene is Northstar constantly apologizing to the lead detective for the actions of people who have spent a good chunk of their time as villains. Is this entire conversation just going to be me correcting everyone on everything they keep saying about the issue?
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Jan 8, 2021 00:55
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I think the members being aggressive have a history of being that way. Lorna and Daken don't really put up with anything. The rest of the team was acting as they usually do. Rachel, Prodigy, and especially Eye-Boy were polite. Even Northstar wasn't as much as an rear end as he could be. So no, I don't think the team or even the majority of mutants are being aggressive toward humans.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:55
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BrianWilly posted:He didn't apologize a literal once! Thanking the detective for being understanding. It's very weird to me you have such an issue with a racist cop being thrown in the mud.
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Jan 8, 2021 00:57
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That's not an apology in any way and if that's how you're reading the comic I can absolutely see why we have such different takeaways here. And twice now we've deployed "Lol why u so mad" strats on a simple discussion on comics that everyone keeps being wrong about so it's clear I should dip now instead of engaging further.
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Jan 8, 2021 01:03
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i'm from x-force and i say kill em all
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Jan 8, 2021 01:05
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BrianWilly posted:Is this entire conversation just going to be me correcting everyone on everything they keep saying about the issue? BrianWilly posted:a simple discussion on comics that everyone keeps being wrong about Yeah... I don't think you're discussing anything in good faith anymore. There's a world of difference between "I think the characters are being too aggressive" to "you jerks are all wrong about this and I don't care about your interpretation! I'm out!"
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Jan 8, 2021 01:11
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Edit: Anyway rereading this I feel like I come across as kind of a stupid rear end in a top hat here and like, clearly the takeaway is that I haven't really thought about this issue as much as I should have. I don't think saying much more about it will do anything except make me look worse so I'm just going to apologize and duck out. I'm sorry for rampaging in without thinking. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jan 8, 2021 |
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Jan 8, 2021 01:11
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I think Eye Boy is supposed to be closer to 18 by now but, much like all the other mutants introduced in the early 00's, has been written really inconsistently so who knows?
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Jan 8, 2021 01:47
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Assuming the Krakoan mutants aren’t still untouchable by all laws, there’s grounds for tort action there. Actual damages is going to be a bitch. What is “mental suffering” when the bad actor is capable and even prone to rummaging through your head?
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Jan 8, 2021 03:06
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levitation can have dire and lifelong effects on a person, as explored in this essay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYsTmIzjkw
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Jan 8, 2021 03:41
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Beerdeer posted:Assuming the Krakoan mutants aren’t still untouchable by all laws, there’s grounds for tort action there. Actual damages is going to be a bitch. What is “mental suffering” when the bad actor is capable and even prone to rummaging through your head? I think the fact that a dead body showing up in England is instantly turned over to Krakoa means they're still pretty much untouchable legally. If an American is murdered in England, England won't be that quick to turn the body over to America. Also, again, of all the morally questionable things that have showed up in the X-books since Hickman took over, dunking a racist cop in the mud because they picked on Eyeboy is a very weird line to draw.
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Jan 8, 2021 05:37
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imagine defending even a fictional cop in tyool 2021
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Jan 8, 2021 20:57
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https://twitter.com/sispurrier/status/1347649449540136966 So Spurrier, so instant add to my list.
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Jan 8, 2021 22:18
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IUG posted:https://twitter.com/sispurrier/status/1347649449540136966 gently caress yeah, I've been wondering what he's been up to since Hellblazer was canned
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Jan 8, 2021 22:25
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This is great news. Nightcrawler was one of the first x-men I really really loved and I'm totally on board with him leading a team.
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Jan 8, 2021 23:16
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If anyone is going to be able to make mutant religion compelling and intersting and as strange as it needs to be, it's Spurrier
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Jan 8, 2021 23:22
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Soonmot posted:If anyone is going to be able to make mutant religion compelling and intersting and as strange as it needs to be, it's Spurrier My thoughts exactly. Can't wait to see how it will turn out.
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Jan 8, 2021 23:43
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