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crispix posted:i think the name could come from any culture though and i really don't think it's an offensive observation to say it's reminiscent of a much loved space opera franchise But it came from that specific culture. It’s potentially offensive and if someone took some offence I’d understand it. How many English names sound like Star Wars characters? That said, it’s not the worst thing I’ve ever heard by a long way and characterising whoever said it as a fascist is an overreaction.
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Jan 9, 2021 15:05
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I mean when TinTower made a lovely, ugly joke, she didn't apologise but she at least had the decency to leave the thread. and she was a lib dem! I posted something like this before regarding FYAD and its jokes, might be relevant again: the thing about jokes isn't that ironic bigotry makes you a Nazi, it's that Nazism is already "ironic" bigotry. like Sartre said, the antisemite plays at words and argument, knowingly making frivolous and spurious arguments for their own amusement. fascism has appeal not because it's a sincere expression of truth, but because it isn't - which allows it to be justification for irrational hatred. that's the whole point. it's by no means evidence of secret fascism but it's also not the rock-solid defence against fascism you might think it is possibly also why you can't satirise fascism - it's already absurd. it'd be like making fun of a clown Wolfsbane posted:I think if the conversation had started from "hey, that's kind of lovely" rather than "you are literally a nazi for your anti-welsh racism, the most important of all racism" then we'd probably be in a better place. Or to put it another way, you should post more and endlessmonotony should lurk more. well I mean equally the conversation would have gone better if people said "sorry I didn't mean to upset you, we are all comrades here" rather than explaining how actually they're right, you're not allowed to be mad, this is fine. and as mentioned earlier one person flying off the handle isn't reason to continue posting the offending joke, explaining how the joke is fine and not bad at all, and coming into the thread to agree that the joke is good and nothing to worry about e: like, the question is: what's more important? the honour of the joke, or the comfort of your posting pals?
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Jan 9, 2021 15:07
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Communist Thoughts posted:Keep going I wanna know where this ends up I dunno, I'm not very eloquent, I'm relying on people's brains making the same connections mine is that I struggle to put into words. Like we've got actual Welsh people here saying, "No this isn't on," and they're being told, "Nah it's cool, we love Star Wars!" and because Star Wars is beloved that means there can't be any possible racial animus behind making fun of their names. Can't we just take people at their word that it's not appreciated and cut it out instead of repeating it while loudly insisting how not racist we are?
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Jan 9, 2021 15:10
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therattle posted:How many English names sound like Star Wars characters? Jolyon Maugham
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Jan 9, 2021 15:11
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Thangam Debbonaire
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Jan 9, 2021 15:13
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To be serious it is basically just another example of how the vast majority of English folk don't know what it's like to be Scottish or Welsh or the other one. And probably some are already mad at me for implying being Welsh or Scottish is any different from being from Manchester or the home counties or any place outside london. The UK treats the devolved countries as if they aren't there until they speak up at which point they scorn or mock them and remind them who owns who. The entire culture and media of those countries is setup in a different way because of it. So yeah in that context if I was Welsh I'd probably not find it quite as funny how surprised and delighted people are to learn Welsh names exist. Otoh it is absolutely a conventional star wars name.
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Jan 9, 2021 15:13
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Wachter posted:Jolyon Maugham Bit more LOTR imo
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Jan 9, 2021 15:13
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Barry Foster posted:Bit more LOTR imo Agreed but I can defintely see someone called Jolyon ordering the Death Star to destroy a planet Rees-Mogg
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Jan 9, 2021 15:14
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It's the sort of joke that you shouldn't exactly be pilloried for, but if a Welsh person says 'hey that's not very nice, we get that poo poo a lot', probably just say 'yeah, sorry, no bother'? I feel it's one of them funny observations that you should maybe only make around an audience that doesn't catch that poo poo all the time. Like I'd happily say to one of my closest mates, who's Welsh, 'hey have you heard of this Guto Bebb fella? Do you all sound like Mos Eisly Cantina residents?', because he's one of my best mates and he'd find that funny and knows I don't hate Welsh people or something. Would I make that joke to any other Welsh person, or even in a group of people I don't know very well? No. Would I bring it up randomly out of context at all? Probably not actually because it isn't even that funny unless Guto Bebb has come up in conversation previously. Anyway, The Social Dilemma. Who's seen it? What did we think?
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Jan 9, 2021 15:16
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I think we're all hosed
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Jan 9, 2021 15:17
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Barry Foster posted:I think we're all hosed I agree. I actually think it might be impossible to subvert or get rid of capitalism until social media has been almost destroyed. And I'm not sure that will ever happen, and even if it did we'd still be a long way off. The doco did sort of make SM the bogeyman when there are a lot of other issues at play but how we get our info and interact with each other is clearly a pretty big factor here. It made me immediately delete my newly made Twitter account anyway.
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Jan 9, 2021 15:19
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I mean the thing is I brought this up with CoolCab before and they kinda apologised but here they are again, saying it's fine and funny, like they don't actually care it ticks people off. and they were the one who brought it up in the first place, to burn another poster in a different argument!
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Jan 9, 2021 15:20
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I thought The Social Dilemma was dangerous nonsense but I'm a Russian bot
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Jan 9, 2021 15:21
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Jakabite posted:It's the sort of joke that you shouldn't exactly be pilloried for, but if a Welsh person says 'hey that's not very nice, we get that poo poo a lot', probably just say 'yeah, sorry, no bother'? I feel it's one of them funny observations that you should maybe only make around an audience that doesn't catch that poo poo all the time. Like I'd happily say to one of my closest mates, who's Welsh, 'hey have you heard of this Guto Bebb fella? Do you all sound like Mos Eisly Cantina residents?', because he's one of my best mates and he'd find that funny and knows I don't hate Welsh people or something. Would I make that joke to any other Welsh person, or even in a group of people I don't know very well? No. Would I bring it up randomly out of context at all? Probably not actually because it isn't even that funny unless Guto Bebb has come up in conversation previously. Just jumping back in to say this is a good post and I haven't seen the Social Dilemma
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Jan 9, 2021 15:25
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Jakabite posted:It's the sort of joke that you shouldn't exactly be pilloried for, but if a Welsh person says 'hey that's not very nice, we get that poo poo a lot', again, and i can't stress this enough, this did not happen, i bring this up because a member accused me of supporting blood and soil fascism because i thought guto bebb was a star wars name. and it's still happening! Lt. Danger posted:I mean when TinTower made a lovely, ugly joke, she didn't apologise but she at least had the decency to leave the thread. and she was a lib dem! i'll be honest, i think a big part of this was that i was genuinely offended at the time, i just chose to laugh it off. and look what happened when i did? i am to be expected to leave, as what i did was definitely comparable to calling a black person a coconut, or to being an ironic, or literal nazi? is this intellectual framework robust - because it seems incredibly fragile here, utterly desperate to transform everything into the incredibly limited scope of dull nationalism. i become a proxy for every wrong put on the welsh people - folks come out of the woodwork to tell me i am FOR SURE just about to deny the welsh race because they have had hundreds of conversations about how guto bubb is or is not a star wars name and they know any second now i'll pull out a blackface puppet and start goosestepping? e: Lt. Danger posted:I mean the thing is I brought this up with CoolCab before and they kinda apologised but here they are again, saying it's fine and funny, like they don't actually care it ticks people off. and they were the one who brought it up in the first place, to burn another poster in a different argument! yeah it's crazy it's almost like when you're called a blood and soil fascist that sticks with you, can't imagine why
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Jan 9, 2021 15:30
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Star Wars name chat is dumb. People will rightly feel offended over it if they wish, and people have the right not to care that they are offending others. Cheers, Mav T'Karr
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Jan 9, 2021 15:30
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therattle posted:But it came from that specific culture. It’s potentially offensive and if someone took some offence I’d understand it. How many English names sound like Star Wars characters? That said, it’s not the worst thing I’ve ever heard by a long way and characterising whoever said it as a fascist is an overreaction. I am from NI - a place where people were genuinely brutalised, terrorised and often murdered over national identities for decades and I can remember that poo poo. You will have to forgive me for not taking seriously someone who is losing their poo poo because someone said some bloke's name reminds them of star wars 
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Jan 9, 2021 15:32
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CoolCab posted:again, and i can't stress this enough, this did not happen, i bring this up because a member accused me of supporting blood and soil fascism because i thought guto bebb was a star wars name. and it's still happening! Stop whining and go and be a banter lad on twitter. It seems to be about your level. You could have apologised a couple of pages ago and this would have have cleared up by now but you've decided to stick with the Hilarious Foreign Names concept.
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Jan 9, 2021 15:34
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The Social Dilemma is interesting if you want to know what the inside of Carole Cadwalladr's brain looks like
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Jan 9, 2021 15:35
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Nobody was even making fun of anyone - it was merely pointed out that linguistically the names are similar lol
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Jan 9, 2021 15:37
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Guto Bebb wouldn't be a Star Wars name if Star Wars didn't exist so maybe you should take this fight to George "Lukey G" Lucas.
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Jan 9, 2021 15:41
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Dabir posted:Guto Bebb wouldn't be a Star Wars name if Star Wars didn't exist so maybe you should take this fight to George "Lukey G" Lucas. his crimes never end do they
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Jan 9, 2021 15:42
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Jakabite posted:Anyway, The Social Dilemma. Who's seen it? What did we think? I thought it was more interesting than the average Netflix doc, but from what I remember had a habit of making out these tech companies as if they were puppet masters or had opened some Pandora's box or something - which is true to an extent, but I feel more of the fault lies between smashing together human psychology and advanced communications technology within a capitalist construct. Part of what I enjoyed about the internet before social media was that it was much more anonymous, so on the one hand there was much more stuff that was offensive, but on the other there was less interface between the virtual and the real. Even seeing a photo had put up of themselves felt a bit taboo as there was such a separation between the two. Over the last decade, as things have become more integrated through smart phones, 24 hour news, social media etc. we have ended up with a sort of cyborg society though rather than body modification, its just the ephemera of thoughts that become cybernetic. I feel like after you've been on the internet long enough the novelty wears off, but we exist in an arena where people are logging on for the first time whilst others have been on it for decades. With newer people (who are going to skew older or younger) I think you can be more likely to take internet activity more seriously, either through poo poo posting and trolling to having your mind reprogrammed through an hose of never-ending garbage ('fake news' just means 'the internet' really). Personally the internet lost a lot of its lustre, the same arguments keep happening, the grifts are obvious, and I just find reality more interesting and dont feel inclined to merge the two - though I still fall for dumb poo poo now and then. tldr: we are smart enough to invent world changing technology but too stupid to know how to use it
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Jan 9, 2021 15:42
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It's a half-formed thought that I've never really been able to properly express in words (so seems to fit in perfectly ITT at the moment) but I've always assumed a lot of the "It's all the fault of the English/London" ire is because it helps to absolve people from the unpleasant realisation that if they live in the UK they *are* recipients of privilege from the Empire. This drizzly archipelago on the edge of the continent is somehow among the richest nations on Earth despite having very little in the way of natural resources (at least compared to most nations). Some of that is the more-or-less happy coincidences of the early Industrial Revolution and the subsequent leverage of those scant resources, but the vast, vast majority of it is because what we mostly did with the iron ore, coal, nonconformism and weird broken hybrid language, legal system and constitution was conquer a quarter of the surface of the planet. The majority of our material wealth, cultural influence, and general not-being-hosed-over-by-bigger-nations comes from that. Scottish, Welsh, and particularly Irish people do of course have perfectly legitimate grievances over that process but like it or not the tide of Empire *did* lift all boats. This is almost literal in the case of Belfast and the Clyde - the reason NI and Scotland have any non-extractive economic activity is the massive amount of shipbuilding and associated trades that were established there to feed the Empire. Wales can at least feel slightly more aggrieved on that of course, because they've been almost entirely extractive - but then so can Durham, Northumberland, most of Yorkshire and even - until the post-war years - everywhere in Kent outside of Medway and the Cinque Ports - and yet standards of living in those places are still massively higher than all of the primarily-extractive (i.e. non-white) former parts of the Empire. The point is that I don't think posters ITT (well not most of them anyway) are too dumb to recognise that privilege, but - even if they don't consciously realise they're doing it - they're dealing with the discomfort of realising that they're considerably better off than someone in, say, Botswana by claiming it's something imposed on them by an outside force, which is fairly defensible - they didn't choose to be part of it - but then lazily distilling that outside force to a group - The English - who *are in the exact same position*. The outside force that has imposed the "benefits" of a global empire on people from Mumbai to Manchester is the ruling class, and trying to deny that through geographic happenstance *is playing into their hands*.
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Jan 9, 2021 15:43
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CoolCab posted:again, and i can't stress this enough, this did not happen, i bring this up because a member accused me of supporting blood and soil fascism because i thought guto bebb was a star wars name. and it's still happening! ok I don't think you're a Nazi, just very selfish
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Jan 9, 2021 15:46
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Gambrinus posted:Stop whining and go and be a banter lad on twitter. It seems to be about your level. but gambrinus, i love pointing out how things are ridiculous. that is i think innate in any critique of nationalism - to challenge, endlessly, these nonsensical ideas. to point out that guto bebb is a star wars name directly lead to repeated accusations of neonazism is a wonderful example of the constructions that nationalism has left in some people's mind. that they can, without a spark of cognitive dissonance, say "stating guto bebb is star wars name is so culturally insensitive it is conceptually and morally similar to supporting race based genocide" i don't banter my friend i analyse and i am critical. sometimes i need to do that using the rhetorical flourish of pointing out the absurd, like highlighting how someone called me a blood and soil fascist for saying guto bebb is a star wars name, or rely on shock value to get my point across, like gesturing to an equivalence drawn between calling guto bebb a star wars name and supporting violent nazi genocide, and sometimes i rely on repetition to really hammer in a point i think should be obvious, like how calling guto bebb a star wars character is actually, believe it or not, quite dissimilar to blood and soil fascism, and how perhaps we should critically evaluate the logic that comes to that conclusion. that's just me, though.
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Jan 9, 2021 15:47
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Love posting in the GBMT
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Jan 9, 2021 15:47
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Tarnop posted:The Social Dilemma is interesting if you want to know what the inside of Carole Cadwalladr's brain looks like Modern social media is a great way of making a disinformation bubble or echo chamber, but so is a church or a soapbox. The rot is deeper and modern technology has done a lot to expose that as well as allowing weirdos to communicate in private.
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Jan 9, 2021 15:48
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Political netflix documentaries seem to be mostly Lib psyop stuff. So I'm just gonna not watch it but assume it blames Facebook for the world being how it is instead of the fault of the people in charge
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Jan 9, 2021 15:50
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Communist Thoughts posted:The UK treats the devolved countries as if they aren't there until they speak up at which point they scorn or mock them and remind them who owns who. Yes this would certainly be a completely alien experience to, say, the local government of Manchester. Boris Johnson lives in terror of what Andy Burnham is going to say or do next.
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Jan 9, 2021 15:52
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CoolCab you're basically correct but drat you are annoying as all hell and seem really online even for people itt
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Jan 9, 2021 15:54
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CoolCab posted:but gambrinus, i love pointing out how things are ridiculous. that is i think innate in any critique of nationalism - to challenge, endlessly, these nonsensical ideas. to point out that guto bebb is a star wars name directly lead to repeated accusations of neonazism is a wonderful example of the constructions that nationalism has left in some people's mind. that they can, without a spark of cognitive dissonance, say "stating guto bebb is star wars name is so culturally insensitive it is conceptually and morally similar to supporting race based genocide" It's not funny though. I've had cunts like you taking the piss out of the Welsh all my life, thinking it's all a big laugh. It's this sort of attitude that destroys culture and drowns villages.
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Jan 9, 2021 15:54
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/bees-kill-pesticide-insect-sugar-neonic-b1784693.html This didn’t take long. If, like me, you’re wondering why a broad spectrum pesticide is being used to treat a plant virus, here’s what the company who make it claim. “Syngenta asserts that thiamethoxam improves plant vigor by triggering physiological reactions within the plant, which induce the expression of specific "functional proteins" involved in various stress defense mechanisms of the plant allowing it to better cope under tough growing conditions, such as "drought and heat stress leading to protein degradation, low pH, high soil salinity, free radicals from UV radiation, toxic levels of aluminum, wounding from pests, wind, hail, etc, virus attack". (https://www.syngenta-us.com/media/emedia_kits/thiamethoxamvigorus/media/pdf/presentation.pdf) Yes, our snake oil will protect your sugar beets from localised meteor strikes and is essentially magic. You can trust us.  Edit: Hahaha the disclaimer at the end. “This document contains forward-looking statements, which can be identified by terminology such as ‘expect’, ‘would’, ‘will’, ‘potential’, ‘plans’, ‘prospects’, ‘estimated’, ‘aiming’, ‘on track’ and similar expressions. Such statements may be subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause the actual results to differ materially from these statements. We refer you to Syngenta's publicly available filings with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission for information about these and other risks and uncertainties. Syngenta assumes no obligation to update forward-looking statements to reflect actual results, changed assumptions or other factors.” “We are under no obligation to corrrct our entirely bullshit claims if/when they are shown to be bullshit.” Can’t believe it took them one week to decide “hmm actually let’s kill the bees after all.” Real Cool Catfish fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Jan 9, 2021 |
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Jan 9, 2021 15:54
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I destroy SJWs with facts and logic
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Jan 9, 2021 15:57
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Yes this would certainly be a completely alien experience to, say, the local government of Manchester. Boris Johnson lives in terror of what Andy Burnham is going to say or do next. Yes it would be. Its not the same sorry.
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Jan 9, 2021 15:57
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Communist Thoughts posted:Yes it would be. Its not the same sorry. Can you elaborate? I'm genuinely interested, not trying to set up some gotcha. Seems necessary to be clear given the current thread climate
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Jan 9, 2021 16:01
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I think England is too diverse a country to just think 'England is poo poo' - what do we mean when we say England? Is this concept pointed at white, right wing middle class people? Second generation immigrants? People who have been campaigning for civil rights all their lives? Highly educated people? People who dropped out of school? Northerners, Southerners etc.? I've said myself 'gently caress England', but I really mean, gently caress UK politicans, the media and people who accumulate wealth by doing nowt. I feel for everyone trying to get by, and even if they have political views vastly different to mine, as that is more of a symptom of how hosed up the system is and designed as such rather than them waking up one day and thinking "I'll be a oval office".
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Jan 9, 2021 16:01
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Communist Thoughts posted:Yes it would be. Its not the same sorry. In what way is it not the same? More particularly - in what way does Andy Burnham have more political clout and power than Nicola Sturgeon?
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Jan 9, 2021 16:05
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CoolCab posted:but gambrinus, i love pointing out how things are ridiculous. that is i think innate in any critique of nationalism - to challenge, endlessly, these nonsensical ideas. to point out that guto bebb is a star wars name directly lead to repeated accusations of neonazism is a wonderful example of the constructions that nationalism has left in some people's mind. that they can, without a spark of cognitive dissonance, say "stating guto bebb is star wars name is so culturally insensitive it is conceptually and morally similar to supporting race based genocide" CoolCab I've agreed with some of the things you've posted ITT but jesus christ, you are the one who brought up this apparent slur against you (where even was that? I don't remember it in the last UKMT but gently caress maybe it was in the pages and pages of nonsense that goes on) and have insisted on arguing about it with everyone, even when people who are literally have personal experience of being negatively affected by the type of comment you made. Take the loving loss and move on, this random poster you have such a problem is not worth so many posts.
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Jan 9, 2021 16:06
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SuperMechaGodzilla but about being a cultural imperialist (?) instead of stanning for Michael Bay movies
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Jan 9, 2021 16:09
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