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Claims that it portrays Caesar's squid-head are just confused that a Roman bust might be cheaply made
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Jan 8, 2021 07:40
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Imagine if the only portraits of Obama that survived was the lovely political cartoons. "Evidence shows that Obama had a rare deformity that gave him a worm like head."
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Jan 8, 2021 09:28
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I was watching Valhalla Rising last night and had a Wiki odessey which lead to reading about weregeld. The article mentioned that the system of monetary compensation for a person's killing died out as Christianity spread in favour of capital punishment. Now I know that, historically, the practice of Christianity doesn't always match the actual tenets, but this seemed weird. It's a bit niche, but would anyone be able to shed some light on this transition?
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Jan 8, 2021 16:19
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I think it's partly that the rise of Christianity coincided with increased centralisation of government.
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Jan 8, 2021 18:20
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Take for example the Icelandic Commonwealth (930-1262) which had the Althing an assembly which doubled as a parliament and a court system but while there was technically a government it had very little executive power to actually carry out any of the laws it made. For example if you killed someone the thing could sentence you to skóggangur (e. Forest walking) which meant you were permanently exiled from society, all your rights were forfeit, and anyone who met you was bound by honour to kill you on the spot. In essence a death sentence but since there wasn't any state power outside the althing it had no way of carrying it out so the responsibility was hoisted onto society as a whole. Note that skóggangur would the harshest imaginable punishment and usually reserved for the most heinous crimes, three years exile and/or weregild were much more common. It isn't really until the Lutheran reformation in 1550 (when church and state merged and things got much more punitive than ever before) that the state in Iceland actually had the ability and authority to physically punish or execute people. e: I imagine other societies in the region, even the ones with proper kings and what not, probably had the same issue with the limiteds ability of the state to carry out the law resulting in the courts usually acting more as a mediator of conflict than a punishing force. FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jan 8, 2021 |
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Jan 8, 2021 18:25
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I don't think you can tie the rise of christianity to the end of wergild, atleast in England, which was nominally converted over the 7th century, yet wergild was still in effect during the reign of Alfred the great, some 200 years later. When was it removed from the Salic code? I suspect christianity and weregild were contemperanous amongst the Franks for a century or two aswell.
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Jan 8, 2021 22:21
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FreudianSlippers posted:I think it's partly that the rise of Christianity coincided with increased centralisation of government. This is possible, because the previous paragraph in the article mentions reintroduction of Roman law in the 12th century and is referenced from the same text. Weka posted:I don't think you can tie the rise of christianity to the end of wergild, atleast in England, which was nominally converted over the 7th century, yet wergild was still in effect during the reign of Alfred the great, some 200 years later. The bit I'm curious about is referenced but I can't find anywhere online to see the text. It says it was still around from 9th to 12th Century in the HRE, so yeah, contemporous. It kind of implies a change in attitude to how personhood is viewed, like you go from being able to put a dollar value on an injury like a person is a TV or a car, to punishing it and punishing it severely. (I also like the note that in Beowulf, one of Hrothgar's issues with Grendel is that he's not paying the wergeld for his murders, which is just RUDE.)
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Jan 9, 2021 05:34
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My understanding was that the weregild was less about putting a dollar value on a life, and more about putting a dollar value on your right to revenge.
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Jan 9, 2021 05:36
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Weka posted:I don't think you can tie the rise of christianity to the end of wergild, atleast in England, which was nominally converted over the 7th century, yet wergild was still in effect during the reign of Alfred the great, some 200 years later. Elissimpark posted:This is possible, because the previous paragraph in the article mentions reintroduction of Roman law in the 12th century and is referenced from the same text. I think that the European nations changed their original customs for multitude of reasons, the spread of Christianity being one of them. cheetah7071 posted:My understanding was that the weregild was less about putting a dollar value on a life, and more about putting a dollar value on your right to revenge. Correct, it wasn't a fine, it was a method of stopping blood feuds.
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Jan 9, 2021 11:58
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cheetah7071 posted:My understanding was that the weregild was less about putting a dollar value on a life, and more about putting a dollar value on your right to revenge. ChubbyChecker posted:Correct, it wasn't a fine, it was a method of stopping blood feuds. Well, that's something new I've learnt today. I'm starting to understand the appeal of capital punishment for a central authority now, especially if someone had differing views on the value of revenge.
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Jan 9, 2021 15:58
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Elissimpark posted:Well, that's something new I've learnt today. I'm starting to understand the appeal of capital punishment for a central authority now, especially if someone had differing views on the value of revenge. I'd say that it was a much more equitable solution, but, even then, it greatly differed by social class, with the poor swinging at the end of a rope and those of rank treated to a swift beheading (assuming they were lucky enough to get a competent and sober ax/swordsman). Hence the populist appeal of the guillotine: instantaneous, ostensibly painless ends for all!
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Jan 9, 2021 21:37
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Why not just Tarpeian Rock
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Jan 9, 2021 22:04
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ChubbyChecker posted:
Very interesting! For a while I thought there was a humane angle to it, but it was probably mostly "stop making GBS threads up my glorious kingdom with your petty feuds or I'll kill you all".
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Jan 9, 2021 22:24
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As freudian slippers pointed out, central authority was often too weak to make such threats.
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Jan 9, 2021 22:39
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CleverHans posted:I'd say that it was a much more equitable solution, but, even then, it greatly differed by social class, with the poor swinging at the end of a rope and those of rank treated to a swift beheading (assuming they were lucky enough to get a competent and sober ax/swordsman). Yeah, the concept is appealing even if the execution (har de har) is a whole new can of worms. Edgar Allen Ho posted:Why not just Tarpeian Rock Ugh, that's all the way up the top of the hill. Let's just strangle everyone on the Gemonian Stairs and call it a day.
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Jan 9, 2021 23:52
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Why not just Tarpeian Rock While African drum music would have been known to the Romans, the fingerboard hadn't been invented yet.
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Jan 10, 2021 00:47
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A similar transition took place in Athens during their democratic reforms. Family and tribe based revenge was replaced with courts that could adjudicate those kinds of disputes, with tribal systems that caused blood feuds and cycles of murderous revenge being dissolved. These courts could and did assign the death penalty for murder, so its not totally the same, but it does show how this issue comes up again and again in different societies.
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Jan 10, 2021 02:53
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A bit of reading suggests that the transition might also be from murder/killing as a civil matter to being a criminal matter. Apparently in traditional Islamic jurisprudence, it is up to the family of the deceased to prosecute rather than the state. In doing so, they may ask for equal retaliation (qisas) or possibly accept blood money (diya).
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Jan 10, 2021 04:48
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That kind of nonviolent conflict resolution is something that sort evolves on its own since a lot of people don't want to be involved in constant back-and-forth murder sprees.
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Jan 10, 2021 08:57
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Tangentially related, but the eastern Finns had a tradition of "collecting blood" well into early 17th century. The Swedish Crown expended a lot of effort to curb the blood vendettas and gain the monopoly on violence, since they tended to cause a lot of collateral damage. I read a study which had gone through the court archives of the period, and drunken brawls in the marketplace escalating into arson and murder and were distressingly common. Some of the people who settled into easternmost parts of the realm actually had done so to get away from their old feuds elsewhere, but while you can take a Finn away from drunken violence, you can't take the drunken violence out of a Finn.
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Jan 10, 2021 12:24
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Ola posted:Very interesting! For a while I thought there was a humane angle to it, but it was probably mostly "stop making GBS threads up my glorious kingdom with your petty feuds or I'll kill you all". Yeah my impression (at least in England - or at least as its was presented in the History of England podcast which just covered this stuff in one of the episodes I listened to) is that people loved their blood feuds, so the weregild was pushed super hard as a way to stop endless cycles of violence.
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Jan 11, 2021 01:16
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I’ll stop killing when I’ve killed everyone who’s wronged me ok?
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Jan 11, 2021 14:59
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LingcodKilla posted:I’ll stop killing when I’ve killed everyone who’s wronged me ok? Your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great granpa stole a sheep from mine and this is why 150 years later, you have to die.
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Jan 11, 2021 15:52
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Dalael posted:Your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great granpa stole a sheep from mine and this is why 150 years later, you have to die. Hey he’s your grandpa too!
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Jan 11, 2021 16:04
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LingcodKilla posted:I’ll stop killing when I’ve killed everyone who’s wronged me ok? —Gaius Julius Caesar Divi Filius, 43 BC skasion fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Jan 11, 2021 |
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Jan 11, 2021 16:33
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Jan 11, 2021 17:46
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Just be like Edo period Japan, where the state is centralized and powerful enough to own a monopoly on violence but the people with swords still think blood vengeance is both cool and good, so you end up setting up a department of blood vengeance that clearly establishes the rules and licenses needed to get revenge for a father/older brother's death. Helped cut down massively on the amount of blood vengeance when killing people without the proper paperwork was a good way of getting yourself executed.
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Jan 11, 2021 18:01
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Don Gato posted:Just be like Edo period Japan, where the state is centralized and powerful enough to own a monopoly on violence but the people with swords still think blood vengeance is both cool and good, so you end up setting up a department of blood vengeance that clearly establishes the rules and licenses needed to get revenge for a father/older brother's death. Helped cut down massively on the amount of blood vengeance when killing people without the proper paperwork was a good way of getting yourself executed. amazing
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Jan 11, 2021 18:04
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Don Gato posted:Just be like Edo period Japan, where the state is centralized and powerful enough to own a monopoly on violence but the people with swords still think blood vengeance is both cool and good, so you end up setting up a department of blood vengeance that clearly establishes the rules and licenses needed to get revenge for a father/older brother's death. Helped cut down massively on the amount of blood vengeance when killing people without the proper paperwork was a good way of getting yourself executed. Lone Wolf and Cub and form BD4565/k Application for Blood Vengeance against a Government Official and/or Secret Family Organisation and the related supporting documents (certified).
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Jan 11, 2021 18:35
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Don Gato posted:Just be like Edo period Japan, where the state is centralized and powerful enough to own a monopoly on violence but the people with swords still think blood vengeance is both cool and good, so you end up setting up a department of blood vengeance that clearly establishes the rules and licenses needed to get revenge for a father/older brother's death. Helped cut down massively on the amount of blood vengeance when killing people without the proper paperwork was a good way of getting yourself executed. Holy poo poo, I thought Stan Sakai made that up.
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Jan 11, 2021 18:44
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The thing about taking revenge is that if people keep doing it, then one crime or mistake turns into like a viral catalyst where more and more people have to be killed in revenge for the revenge until either somebody gives up or all of one line is exterminated.
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Jan 11, 2021 22:29
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Don Gato posted:Just be like Edo period Japan, where the state is centralized and powerful enough to own a monopoly on violence but the people with swords still think blood vengeance is both cool and good, so you end up setting up a department of blood vengeance that clearly establishes the rules and licenses needed to get revenge for a father/older brother's death. Helped cut down massively on the amount of blood vengeance when killing people without the proper paperwork was a good way of getting yourself executed. The Japanese were huge fans of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind I see. And they say video games can't teach you history, pssh.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:09
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There were some pretty rational rules on the surface premise that it's okay to murder someone in vengeance: you could only avenge the death of fathers and older brothers (so you couldn't avenge a son or a younger brother). The vengeance target's family could not reciprocate vengeance. Internal passports between feudal domains was already the norm, so adding on a license was merely an additional bureaucratic step. Failure to follow these rules would result in prosecution as a common murderer. Basically all this was really of benefit to the warrior aristocracy of Edo Japan, who could let off steam and pursue a very low level of blood feud without risk of it spiralling out of control into a new Sengoku. The Edo government had a darkly rational worldview.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:30
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Phobophilia posted:you could only avenge the death of fathers and older brothers (so you couldn't avenge a son or a younger brother) ...so would people just have revenge babies? e: Talkin' real long term family planning.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:57
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Also samurai would apply for them because you could go to places and say you were on a revenge quest and bum all sorts of things because who wouldn't want to support a man filling in his filial duties. Edit: This is where I first read about how blood vengeance worked in the Edo period way back in college, it's a wild ride. Don Gato fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 00:14
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Why would you want to revenge your father? Hello inheritance!
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Jan 12, 2021 00:20
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You've just got all this money, why not go on holiday?
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Jan 12, 2021 03:46
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LingcodKilla posted:Why would you want to revenge your father? Hello inheritance! Hard to enjoy your inheritance when there's a ghost following you around complaining about why you haven't avenged his death yet.
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Jan 12, 2021 04:03
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sullat posted:Hard to enjoy your spa holiday when there's a ghost following you around complaining about you spending 2 weeks in Nozawaonsen "looking for clues" rather than avenging their death.
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Jan 12, 2021 06:47
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Does anybody know the origin of the phrase "night of the long knives"? I can't find it in Nennius or Geoffrey of Monmouth but I'm just using lovely versions from the internet.
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Jan 12, 2021 12:13
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