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SlothfulCobra posted:Fallout also can't do communism because it'd just be people carrying around a lot of 50s era notions on how providing welfare or nationalizing industry or providing labor rights will cause the entire world to melt and having to reconcile that with what's popular and what works, and that's not like a sci-fi world premise, it's just America right now and exhausting. There was a funny idea in this thread, or maybe the Fallout general thread, about a post-war community in the image of America. Like all good Americans, they hate commies even if they don't know what that is. And like all good Americans they believe in as much democracy as possible, including democratic control of workplaces. New Vegas has some great quests where you don't have to kill anyone. A Fallout game with a region that is stable and largely peaceful could be really great.
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Jan 12, 2021 05:39
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Russian version of Fallout (okay I know that's just STALKER or Metro but hear me out) that uses Socialist Realism But All The Time Forever as the pre-war aesthetic instead of 1957 But All The Time Forever. So many shiny tractors and well-groomed, physically fit, and vaguely inhuman young farmers admiring those tractors.
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Jan 12, 2021 05:46
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It's not exactly Socialist Realism but Atomic Heart is potentially going to have shades of that. Hard to say since it's not out yet, but it's what the trailers seem to be going for.
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Jan 12, 2021 05:57
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Funky Valentine posted:Russian version of Fallout (okay I know that's just STALKER or Metro but hear me out) https://store.steampowered.com/app/552620/
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Jan 12, 2021 06:23
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Chamale posted:Yeah, that's my point, from a leftist perspective it's obvious House sucks although the reasons he sucks are distinct from the reasons the Legion and NCR also suck. But as you said, the game's not designed to accommodate communist viewpoints, I think it has a lot to do with the limitations of the game. You can fix all the wasteland's problems and it's not possible to let the people rule themselves; it ends with either the NCR, the Legion, Mr. House, or the Courier in charge. Even if you succeed at everything, the ending slides call an Independent New Vegas "even more unstable and violent that before". rope kid posted:Caesar is literally a historical reenactor. He believes that the synthesis of two groups like the Roman Republic and like the Roman Legion will produce something like the Roman Empire. In his mind, that will stabilize the violent and rapacious qualities of the military and eliminate the corruption of the republic. In turn, he believes that the wasteland will then enjoy a period of peace and stable growth. He really does believe in the "pax per bellum" ideal.
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Jan 12, 2021 07:20
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SlothfulCobra posted:The thing is, when House forced people off of the strip, there was plenty of empty city around for them to move into. Just like the American Indians. It would be outright immoral not to displace them with all the empty land everywhere! Also it's pretty funny what other colonial tropes goons will jump to defend as long as you slap a sci-fi label onto them. House offered some of the tribes a job running the Strip (with the tacit understanding that he would kill them if they rejected, as he did with everybody else), so he was actually good for the people? Just like the British Raj! Turns out playing the various native groups to exploit the divisions beween them, elevating some into administrative positions and using divide and conquer to keep the population as a whole from rising up is actually good and progressive now. Also if you refuse to recognize other people as being a Proper 20th Century Nation State TM (terms and conditions may apply), you are practically obliged to establish a dominion over them by any means necessary. Etc. etc- steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 07:32
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Proletariat of the wasteland...
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Jan 12, 2021 07:33
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aniviron posted:It's also important to note that House didn't force the tribes into becoming the families- he gave them an opportunity to turn down his offer, but none of them did, because it lead to a massive improvement in their standards of living. They were strong enough to fight off his robots if they'd wanted to, that was the whole point of recruiting them. Instead, they agreed to his terms. It even gets mentioned that House does his best to give them roles reminiscent of their old tribal identities. Eh, when I talked to Benny about it I always got the impression it was also an appeal to force. "The next day, twenty [Securitrons] roll up. So we listened."
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Jan 12, 2021 07:49
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StandardVC10 posted:Eh, when I talked to Benny about it I always got the impression it was also an appeal to force. "The next day, twenty [Securitrons] roll up. So we listened." That's because they trashed the first, lone securitron that rolled up without even talking to it. Twenty made sure House managed to talk. Appeal to force to some degree, but at least his first reaction to "they trashed one of my irreplaceable robots that came to them peacefully" wasn't to write them off entirely and/or get revenge. e: this is still not justifying house or saying he did the right thing, but that was part of a larger statement that contextualizes House's action SkyeAuroline fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 07:54
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SkyeAuroline posted:That's because they trashed the first, lone securitron that rolled up without even talking to it. Twenty made sure House managed to talk. im just lolling and crying. its not using force if you send in your murder bots because sometimes people defeat those murder bots so you have no option but keep sending more until they surrender
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Jan 12, 2021 08:02
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And Benny killed his former tribe leader in a knife fight because he wanted to take the deal.steinrokkan posted:Just like the American Indians. It would be outright immoral not to displace them with all the empty land everywhere! The trail of tears was 5,000 miles and took a death march of 21 days, the strip is 4 and would take 21 minutes to leave (excluding the time it took to get their stuff). Like I get removing people from their land is an injurious process, but this is a small bit of land that they can just plop outside. It's less trouble than being evicted from an apartment. Plausibly the tribes might have not even been agrarian, which would give them way less ties to a specific plot of land.
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Jan 12, 2021 08:12
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Also House can't leave. Also fuckin lol at being so eager to be mad at House that you start claiming the cannibals and drugrunners are just like the American Indians.
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Jan 12, 2021 08:17
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Discendo Vox posted:[quote="rope kid"] It makes sense that the developers have this in mind. New Vegas is a Liberal game - that is, it sees progress from crappy caveman life to enlightened skyscraper life as a driving engine of history. The struggle of rationalism to overcome the miserable human condition, whereas Marxism sees the driving engine as conflict between those who profit and those who are exploiters, and fascism sees the driving engine as conflict between races. NCR and House are both Liberals in the American sense, though the NCR focuses more on trying to increase law and order while House tries to increase technological advancement. Caesar is a fascist, and the Courier is what the player wants, which can include a leftist courier. The game tells rather than shows that an independent Vegas is a bad outcome, though I might be reading too much into the ending slides. The game tells us that a Legion victory is a bad outcome, though a Legion citizen would argue that being able to oppress whoever he wants is a good thing. I don't usually hear Caesar out since he tends to get shot in the head whenever I raid his camp.
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Jan 12, 2021 08:18
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steinrokkan posted:im just lolling and crying. its not using force if you send in your murder bots because sometimes people defeat those murder bots so you have no option but keep sending more until they surrender Man, I'm not a House fan in the slightest. Don't try and pin that mindset to me. One nonviolent Securitron rolled up to talk to them and got "junked in a minute flat". House sends the rest, again nonviolent, to talk to them. The extent of death or even injury out of this is "one Securitron in the initial meeting, and Bingo when Benny challenged him for leadership". It's still pressure by force and House's entire Strip rebuild is deeply hosed from the families to Freeside and Westside, but we also aren't talking Legion "you get an offer to join and if you reject it we slaughter every person capable of resisting in your tribe". This is still not defending budget bin Andrew Ryan. But if we're going to have a conversation about his actions it helps to not ignore the context things happen in. He still used a show of force against the Boot Riders that brought them into the fold. It just wasn't a first-contact move as had been implied. Interpret that however you want, if you still want to take the bad faith interpretation of "supplying statements directly from the game dialogue means justifying imperialism" then... that's your call, I guess, I don't control your opinions. It's not what I'm setting out to do though.
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Jan 12, 2021 08:20
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Chamale posted:It makes sense that the developers have this in mind. New Vegas is a Liberal game - that is, it sees progress from crappy caveman life to enlightened skyscraper life as a driving engine of history. I wasn't a socialist in 2010 or 2012. I am now. I still don't think that socialism or communism are the inevitable end result of dialectical processes.
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Jan 12, 2021 09:01
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rope kid posted:
I agree with you there. I think it's only one of the possible end results, and not necessarily stable. In the short term, do you think the end slides are meant to say that NCR rule is better than independent Vegas, or can it be interpreted that an independent Vegas is better for most people despite some initial chaos? I would have loved to see more of the game after the end, though I understand why that wasn't possible.
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Jan 12, 2021 09:11
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What I was trying to say is that if you take away the big three power players that have no moral or ethical issues slapping smaller groups around to keep order, you're left with a bunch of smaller groups that have very different priorities and no centralized power. Obviously this will vary from player to player, but you have whatever is left of the Strip's families, the Kings, the Followers, Freesiders, and any other NCR citizens or companies folks are fine with sticking around. In the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Hoover Dam, even if NCRs military immediately vacates, you still have groups like the Van Graffs, gangs, and random dipshits who are going to try to take advantage. The big three know exactly what they want to do if/when the BoHD ends in their favor. In an independent ending, the minor players all have to look at each other and go uhh... what do we want to do??
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Jan 12, 2021 09:24
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That makes sense. It's a more open-ended ending than the other ones for sure, but I have hopes for an independent Vegas provided the Courier doesn't simply seize power. I started reading about Marxism in a lot more depth over the past year, and it provides an interesting perspective to this game. I found it more helpful than trying to simply compare the relative badness of all the factions involved. I still think the Followers of the Apocalypse are the best group of people in the Mojave, of course.
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Jan 12, 2021 09:31
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Chamale posted:That makes sense. It's a more open-ended ending than the other ones for sure, but I have hopes for an independent Vegas provided the Courier doesn't simply seize power. By design. Everyone outside of them are either isolationist or "imperialist" and want to enforce their will on the area. Sadly there is no such thing as a clean ending where you can enact the Socialist Utopia. That said, all of the factions suck, and that they didn't leave the Wild Card ending more ambiguous is probably the game's biggest narrative failing.
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Jan 12, 2021 09:49
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steinrokkan posted:Just like the American Indians. It would be outright immoral not to displace them with all the empty land everywhere! Take a break man
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Jan 12, 2021 10:17
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 Victor how the heck did you get up here.
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Jan 12, 2021 10:18
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steinrokkan posted:Just like the American Indians. It would be outright immoral not to displace them with all the empty land everywhere! What the gently caress is this post.
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Jan 12, 2021 10:26
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@rope kid Is there an in-game explanation as to why Caesar doesn't just go "congratulations, female courier, you've earned the privilege of being my wife and nothing else" in the ending slides? The legion fucks literally everyone else over, and his faction's whole "women are loving worthless baby factories" shtick seems to anti-jive with him respecting you kicking rear end. This may, in fact, make people ask questions he's not interested in answering. Like, Lanius implies he's going to have his way with you if you make him mad enough. So what's the deal? I honestly just don't understand how the Guy That Fucks Everyone Over wouldn't do that to a woman.
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Jan 12, 2021 10:27
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Dr Pepper posted:
Hey Partner!
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Jan 12, 2021 10:27
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:@rope kid Lack of Dev time, knowing he is going to die, Courier kind of being immune to cultural and social protocol. Pick one.
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Jan 12, 2021 10:30
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Meridian posted:Lack of Dev time, knowing he is going to die, Courier kind of being immune to cultural and social protocol. Pick one. Can't be the first, unless new vegas was so constrained that even "OHHH gently caress WE NEED TO CUT THE SINGLE VOICE LINE WE CAN ONLY AFFORD 14.5 SECONDS OF STUDIO TIME" was something that happened. I mean, meta reasons are meta reasons, obviously no player is gonna like "and then you get to be the slave in the prettiest cage making babies for lanius or whoever until you die(EDIT: yes i know some goon is gonna go "i can think of some people that would like that:))))" so im just gonna head you off before you post you weird coomer)". as an ending, I just wanted to hear what JEsawyer had to say TheDiceMustRoll fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 10:33
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Can't be the first, unless new vegas was so constrained that even "OHHH gently caress WE NEED TO CUT THE SINGLE VOICE LINE WE CAN ONLY AFFORD 14.5 SECONDS OF STUDIO TIME" was something that happened. I mean, meta reasons are meta reasons, obviously no player is gonna like "and then you get to be the slave in the prettiest cage making babies for lanius or whoever until you die(EDIT: yes i know some goon is gonna go "i can think of some people that would like that:))))" so im just gonna head you off before you post you weird coomer)". as an ending, I just wanted to hear what JEsawyer had to say It's common knowledge that a lot of Legion content had to be cut due to development constraints so...yeah that was something that happened.
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Jan 12, 2021 10:41
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:@rope kid "Congrats, you are my slave now." Caesar says to the T-51b Power Armor clad Courier wielding the Sprtel-Wood 9700 aimed directly at his face. That or maybe it is like Vulpes Inculta said way back in Nipton and Ceaser sees you as a useful tool and thus more use free and active in his service. Either or. 
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Jan 12, 2021 11:10
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Caeser isn't actually prone to enslaving people that just happen to be nearby, that's pretty much fanfiction. The Legion focuses on militant / tribal groups that are far enough away from however Caeser defines 'civilized' to be easily brainwashed / assimilated. People with a lot of worldly experience or education make for lovely slaves, they stir dissent and other poo poo. s: sawyer at some point, this topic is ten years old shut up
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Jan 12, 2021 12:31
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SlothfulCobra posted:That's a resource that didn't exist until House shooed away and converted the tribes and reintroduced the concept.
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Jan 12, 2021 13:01
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Utgardaloki posted:Caeser isn't actually prone to enslaving people that just happen to be nearby, that's pretty much fanfiction. The Legion focuses on militant / tribal groups that are far enough away from however Caeser defines 'civilized' to be easily brainwashed / assimilated. People with a lot of worldly experience or education make for lovely slaves, they stir dissent and other poo poo. Eddie Sallow is so poo poo at his Pax Romana Fan Fiction that he can't even control the wide-spread practice of slavery, including a couple hundred metres outside his tent. He's going to die from a well deserved brain tumour, and the guy who's set to take over was second fiddle to the last guy who failed to take over Hoover Dam, but at least the last guy managed to find some sort of reason/sense after he was set on fire and dropped several stories down a ravine. Caesar's Legion only has a chance if the Courier fixes everything wrong about them, like a dotting mother cleaning up after her children, or otherwise steps up to the plate to carry the slack of all the romailures. Anyway, I want to thank Ropekid for still coming into this thread and these forums to answer our questions after all these years. Clearly the Mailman Dictatorship ending is the best, with No-Bark holding the fort while the Courier is off getting casador stingers surgically removed from their person. Edit: and thanks to everyone involved in the game for creating a faction that we love to hate. LashLightning fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 13:44
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:@rope kid imo seems like a bad idea to try to force a mass murderer to be a baby factory
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Jan 12, 2021 13:54
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rope kid posted:No, not really. The things that are happening are largely the result of material conditions. I just don't think that when the myriad laborers in the wasteland have their current exploiters and bullies wasted by the Courier that the Full Automatic Communism Hive Mind will activate in all of them and they'll start singing Pete Seeger songs together. Speaking of material conditions, I may have alluded to this several pages back, but one question potentially applicable to all of the endings - the Old World Blues "ideal" ending has the Courier releasing Big MT tech as it's safe to do so to help the wasteland. Is the Courier able to do the same with the Sierra Madre machines? I know in-game there's a handwave of not being able to go back to the casino ("let go" etc etc), but you walk back under your own power & have a friendly, tech-savvy permanent resident of the casino who could potentially lead you back lighthouse-style even if you don't track your own path. The SM vending machines, even just limited to what they can take and give out in game, would go a hell of a long way in alleviating material concerns for whoever controlled them. Incredibly vulnerable military target, of course, but all of the ending factions have solutions for that. I've never seen them officially addressed & there are artificial barriers in place in-game to let it happen, but it's such a common sense idea that it forms a cornerstone of my Wildcard thoughts. If that's not even possible in narrative then I can probably safely set it aside.
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Jan 12, 2021 15:12
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new vegas is so loving good holy poo poo
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Jan 12, 2021 15:48
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I can't really answer anything that has to do with DLCs other than Honest Hearts and GRA. Chris Avellone directed DM, OWB, and LR. I just did system design for those DLCs.
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Jan 12, 2021 15:53
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Utgardaloki posted:Caeser isn't actually prone to enslaving people that just happen to be nearby, that's pretty much fanfiction. The Legion focuses on militant / tribal groups that are far enough away from however Caeser defines 'civilized' to be easily brainwashed / assimilated. People with a lot of worldly experience or education make for lovely slaves, they stir dissent and other poo poo. There are a few slaves around in the Mojave that have been captured from inside the Mojave, but not a ton, that's true. Presumably, the Legion doesn't enslave everybody in Colorado, otherwise merchants wouldn't speak so glowingly of their "roads are safe and trains run on time" policies.
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Jan 12, 2021 15:57
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rope kid posted:I can't really answer anything that has to do with DLCs other than Honest Hearts and GRA. Chris Avellone directed DM, OWB, and LR. I just did system design for those DLCs. Okay, I wasn't sure how the division went there. Thanks. Considering this is Avellone we're talking about, I'll invoke the death of the author and say that there's nothing saying the Courier can't and the potential best-case Wild Card can still live. ps, thanks for sticking around and talking about the game so long. Rare to keep getting this level of insight from a creator in such a casual environment. (yes, I know I'm a late arrival and all, but still)
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Jan 12, 2021 16:13
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Dr Pepper posted:
Fancy meeting you here, friend!
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Jan 12, 2021 16:44
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Arcsquad12 posted:Fancy meeting you here, friend! Only Malcolm Holmes can protect us from this terror.
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Jan 12, 2021 16:56
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Victor and Holme Versus Barton Thorn and Oliver Swanwick.
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Jan 12, 2021 17:07
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