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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:This is discussion about people leaving a specific job, not the general population. I have no issue with people in general who got fired unexpectedly, but If you get fired from my firm it's for a consistent, documented track record of poor performance, full stop, and therefore I only care about where you end up in the specific context of "let me make it so I never have to interact with you again"
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Dec 19, 2020 15:59
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I don’t want to work with people I have been involved in firing isn’t a particularly bold statement.
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Dec 19, 2020 16:01
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Dik Hz posted:making GBS threads on people that got fired is a lovely thing to do. This is an advice subforum with a subversive streak for punching up. Punching down is tedious, unfun, and lovely. If you want to talk about the perils of quitting a job without something lined up, please include actionable advice or feedback so as not to just poo poo on people. Plenty of people leave or get fired for bullshit reasons or for health or safety reasons. Your blanket statement is profoundly unhelpful. hey you miss the part where I said people who were fired from my firm, which is a 60 person consulting firm?
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Dec 19, 2020 16:13
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:hey you miss the part where I said people who were fired from my firm, which is a 60 person consulting firm?
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Dec 19, 2020 16:42
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Jordan7hm posted:I don’t want to work with people I have been involved in firing isn’t a particularly bold statement.  and incredibly naive and lacking in nuance.
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Dec 19, 2020 16:43
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Hi I fired a guy this year for reasons not entirely his fault. poo poo happens and I'd be careful getting all smug about not working with people who have been let go.
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Dec 19, 2020 19:27
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Dik Hz posted:No. Nor did I miss your previous posts on the subject. we've fired four people in a decade and all of them were terrible
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Dec 20, 2020 16:36
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:we've fired four people in a decade and all of them were terrible
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Dec 20, 2020 22:31
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My partner has potentially landed a consulting gig. The gotcha is going to be writing her own employment contract or whatever, and then negotiating that with the team she's consulting with. Anyone have any guidance on this? I think I've seen getting started forms for designers, artists, etc floating around for this. We've gotten an employment lawyer to deal with a different situation, but it's pricey and we wouldn't want to spend a large portion of the pay for this contract on getting the contract written. We'll probably get by with the simple writeup we have, which establishes expectations from both sides, two pay options (full pay, or capped revenue share). We have no idea what the finances of the party we're working with are, either, and in software development that can be a huge range from "Negative money, I couldn't pay you a penny I found on the ground" to "My boss has given me a blank check, ask for whatever your heart desires" I figure there are basically 3 parts to this: 1) Hours & contract length example: 20 hours a month, for 2 months, with a decision to extend the contract made by the conclusion of the contract period. Any time put in after that won't be automatically billed, the consultant won't be expected to attend any meetings or deliver anything past that time, but will be responsible for quick answers to small questions. 2) Job description and expected work output example: 5 pieces of art a month, or lead the team through these review meetings 3) Pay. Example: $100 an hour paid at the end of each month over Venmo, or $15 an hour paid at the end of each month over Venmo, with an additional $185 target hourly rate paid out of a 2% monthly revenue share. We expect the second sort of pay to be what the client goes for, it has a cap so it's not indefinite, and my partner's pay is basically tied to the app's success. So what we're looking for is: 1) are there any good straightforward guides to writing up a contract like this? I know that for smaller indie people, there are often free tools, like https://dopresskit.com/ for a press kit. Something that's "Here's a guide for consulting, with forms to fill out to set rates" 2) tips on negotiating this all without making it a confusing mess example: "What if instead of a capped hours per month, it was instead paid out per work artifact delivered?" Not sure if this is the best thread for this, but negotiation is one of the next big steps, and I didn't see any sort of general consulting thread or self employed contract work thread floating around.
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Dec 23, 2020 06:31
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This came up recently on another thread i watch. Good reading:here through here or so https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U The salient points were: 1) liability insurance 2) definitely make a signable change-form for use during projects (the initial agreement should also probably cover who on the clients side is authorized to make changes/issue work - the point of contact) 3) that video has excellent points, and the kill fee/stages of work/firable offenses for clients/how lawyers fees are covered are great includes some other stuff like a cpa saving you money when it comes to 1099 taxes and whther you want to incorporate You may want an afterhours/call policy just for your partner's sanity, depending on the type of work. Another big one is ownership of the work and that it doesn't transfer to the other party until you are paid in full. Assigning ownership of works, I think is how its called? So like, its for when you finish all the work and the client decides they won't pay, they can't use it (and are committing theft if they try) until they do. The last thing it should probably cover is upfront payment and deposits before work begins. Whatever you get drafted, please share with the goon over there! TheParadigm fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Dec 23, 2020 |
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Dec 23, 2020 07:34
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Chainclaw posted:... the end of each month over Venmo, with an additional $185 target hourly rate paid out of a 2% monthly revenue share... If you're going to do rev share you need language that allows you to review financial records pertaining to the company/app. The deal point about ownership of the work product only transferring to the buyer when you receive acceptance and are paid in full on your initial development fees is a really good one as well. Also I would suggest not specifying payment method in the contract. Ultimately though a rev share can get very complicated and unless the potential earnings justify the hiring of a good lawyer at $250+++ per hour the simpler option may be preferable
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Dec 24, 2020 19:13
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I got an offer on a position that would be a pretty nice move - same thing I'm doing now but for a healthcare nonprofit. Similar responsibilities, not an international financial institution, etc. Salary's a bump up. Hours are around the same. The offer included a sign-on bonus. The catch here is that my current job has bonus season coming up in Feb, and my current job bonus is 18-35% New job's sign-on bonus doesn't really come close to that. What's the best way to ask for a sign-on bonus commensurate to what I'd get at the current job? I still have currentjob's offer letter that spells out the bonus, but I've never been in this position before.
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Jan 12, 2021 02:57
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Well thread, I have a pickle of a negotiation situation. I was promoted last week (yay), and am told (believably) that I will be getting a salary bump on top of yearly merit raise. Before it’s pointed out, the plant manager that tapped me on the shoulder is a straight shooter, and well respected, and my company has a good track record of taking care of its employees that perform well. That being said, I was offered the job, accepted it, it’s been officially announced to VPs etc, and that puts me in a terrible position to negotiate more pay when I get presented with formal paperwork (probably this week). Assuming I get an offer that I am genuinely happy with, would I be seen as a pain in the rear end for trying to get my pay rounded up to the next even thousand? It likely will be generous, and it wouldn’t be the best if I come off as a “chiseler” If I’m going to be in a position that would lead to upper levels, I feel that I need to make it a point that while I am grateful about more money, I’m still an entity that will negotiate instead of just taking what I can get. How off base is this theory/plan I have?
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Jan 12, 2021 06:14
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MJP posted:I got an offer on a position that would be a pretty nice move - same thing I'm doing now but for a healthcare nonprofit. Similar responsibilities, not an international financial institution, etc. Salary's a bump up. Hours are around the same. "I would love to join you, but in doing so before [DATE X, BONUS TIME], I would be foregoing my current employer's annual bonus payment, which I expect to be $X based on previous history and the terms of my employment, which I am happy to share with you if necessary. If you can increase the sign on bonus to $Y, I would be happy to start immediately. If that is not possible, I am still happy to sign an offer letter but with a start date after [DATE X]." This assumes that you are OK staying at your current job until after you get your bonus, which based on the numbers involved seems reasonable to me.
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Jan 12, 2021 14:30
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Tnuctip posted:Well thread, I have a pickle of a negotiation situation. this is harsh, but rounding your pay up to the nearest thousand is a trivial amount of money and not worth potential image damage or burning of capital. it will make you look cheap, ungrateful, and politically stupid. it will not make the point you think it is going to make. if you want to negotiate 20k or something, or if the offer is actually crap, then it might be worthwhile but unfortunately you missed the actual window for negotiation (hint: this was before you accepted the promotion) and the odds of you succeeding are roughly 0%
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Jan 12, 2021 14:33
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Tnuctip posted:Well thread, I have a pickle of a negotiation situation.
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Jan 12, 2021 14:38
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You’d think it’d be obvious but maybe we should add “Never accept an offer without knowing any numbers” to the thread title.
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Jan 12, 2021 14:40
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Eric the Mauve posted:You’d think it’d be obvious but maybe we should add “Never accept an offer without knowing any numbers” to the thread title. Tnuctip, you may have lost the battle, but you can still win the war. Make sure success is clearly defined with milestones. You can also negotiate for increased training, which will make you more valuable to your next employer.
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Jan 12, 2021 14:44
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Oh Tnuctip is cool and good, but the issue has come up before and it’s kind of mind blowing how common it is. But maybe in this case they’ll actually pay fairly and no harm will be done. In tangential news, a friend of mine was just abruptly pulled into a zoom meeting with his boss and boss’s-boss’s-boss (EVP) which he at first feared meant his department was being lined up against the wall and shot, but it turned out to be great news! Another department was executed and he’s being promoted! Now he’s doing two full time jobs for a 10% pay increase. 
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Jan 12, 2021 14:56
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Eric the Mauve posted:You’d think it’d be obvious but maybe we should add “Never accept an offer without knowing any numbers” to the thread title. Done. This isn't about antagonizing tnuctip; it's a consistent problem that people come into the thread saying "I accepted an offer can I negotiate it?" Now it's in the OP so at least some of those people will see it before they accept, and the others can feel even worse about glossing over the OP. edit: as benevolent negotiation dictator for life I looked and was disappointed that Eric the Mauve didn't get a shout out in the OP. This has been fixed. Dwight Eisenhower fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 16:41
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:this is harsh, but rounding your pay up to the nearest thousand is a trivial amount of money and not worth potential image damage or burning of capital. it will make you look cheap, ungrateful, and politically stupid. it will not make the point you think it is going to make. Ok, good advice! I’m not taking the criticism antagonisticly, it is a fair assessment of the situation. The kicker is that it happened so fast I was caught flat footed, which again my issue, but I imagine it happens fairly often.
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Jan 12, 2021 21:02
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Dik Hz posted:Probably, but I think reflexively changing the title after Tnuctip asked their question would be needlessly antagonistic. As dumb as it sounds, I do think it will work out to be not awful monetarily. Have already started on defining objectives etc.. I understand that I did miss the usual negotiation phase, and provided that the increase is “ok”, do I have anything to gain by pointing out that while I’m happy with the offer, I’ll try to be a better negotiator in the future? More in terms of winning the war, and acknowledging i have long term ambitions, would it be bad to express those out loud to someone that’s a generally reasonable manager?
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Jan 12, 2021 21:08
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I sympathize with the itch to save face (if only with yourself) but it's really best to just keep quiet about it and get on with your work at this point. If you end up underpaid, the time to bring up that you're aware you're underpaid is the next time you're given new responsibilities. (Or when you submit your resignation because you've accepted a much higher paying job elsewhere.) Dwight, I am at best a B list poster but thanks for the kind words.
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Jan 12, 2021 21:14
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Tnuctip posted:Ok, good advice! I’m not taking the criticism antagonisticly, it is a fair assessment of the situation. The kicker is that it happened so fast I was caught flat footed, which again my issue, but I imagine it happens fairly often. I think there is a good lesson here because it's sort of generally true that you will often not see a negotiation like this coming. Maybe it's a "201" level thing, but it's happened to me and others.
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Jan 12, 2021 21:29
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Eric the Mauve posted:
Don’t sell yourself short. (It’s a horrible negotiation tactic.  )Plenty of great and accurate advice. Might come across as a bit harsh to first time thread visitors when it’s not the anwser they were hoping for, but always fair.
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Jan 12, 2021 21:37
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Thread success story by proxy, a buddy of mine called me up a few days ago to tell me about how he put some negotiation strategies to good use in negotiating a promotion. He was making $94k, they wanted to make him a manager and give him 2 reports. They said they'd give him a bump to $100k. He did his research and approached his boss with an evidence/market-based argument for why he should be making $115k instead. They met him at $110k and he accepted. He loves his job and didn't want to rock the boat too much, but a few hours of research and a convincing argument netted him a 17% raise instead of a ~6%. Only thing he omitted that I would've recommended would be to include concrete numbers for his impact on the company in terms of dollars saved or won - I think that might've gotten him his ask. Never don't negotiate!
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Jan 12, 2021 21:50
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That's kind of a small bump for manager. Does the amount of his work and responsibility only increase by 15% with two direct reports? Like you would have to bump my salary by 50% if you wanted me to do the amount of work my manager does.
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Jan 12, 2021 21:59
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It's sadly routine for a lot of companies to do internal promotions this way. They know his current salary, they know he's going to accept a small bump because more money is better than no more money, and they have a hundred ways to make him regret it if he flat-out refuses the promotion. That he is inevitably going to use his enhanced resume to earn more money elsewhere 0.5-2 years down the road either doesn't enter their mind or they don't care. But even so--a painfully large number of people would have just taken the paltry 6% increase! So good play by him to at least negotiate an extra $10K. That's actually way more important than it looks because it will affect not just his salary in 2021, but it will affect all the salary he will earn the rest of his life--and in an almost exponential way, as the years go by. Generally when offered an internal honest-to-god promotion to a higher title you should take it, even if it means being drastically underpaid for your new level. Getting to put the higher title on your resume opens a lot of doors in the medium-term future. (But this does not apply to "promotions" to more work for the same salary and same/linear-move title.) Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 22:23
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Tnuctip posted:As dumb as it sounds, I do think it will work out to be not awful monetarily. Have already started on defining objectives etc.. How big a place are you out and do they have pay bands per level? Where I am at the move up a grade nets you a 10% raise, negotiation isn't possible. Maybe there is something similar (sounds line not). where you are at. where I am at depending on when in the year you get promoted you may or may not also get a merit bump at raise time. We have pretty rigid HR stuff though. bamhand posted:That's kind of a small bump for manager. Does the amount of his work and responsibility only increase by 15% with two direct reports? What if I told you that when I became the manager of my group 4 of my direct reports made more than me (I was 31 and them 60 but still). Managers are not always valued higher than individual contributors.
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Jan 12, 2021 22:28
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I mean I would just tell them thanks but I'll keep my current job title, salary, and responsibilities. It obviously depends on specific situations. Could be a manager does some general unspecialized work while his reports are all rockstar experts at their field. But in my specific case my manager does way more work than me and I would only take on that role with a commensurate pay increase.
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Jan 12, 2021 22:58
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It's totally dependent on the company and industry, but in some places its not strictly true that a manager earns more than one of their ICs or is "higher up" necessarily. Senior management is almost certainly much more compensated, but a first rung team lead is more of a lateral move onto a different career track and doesn't necessarily mean a big comp boost. When I was a team lead half my reports made more than me. It is, however, an opportunity to renegotiate your value to the company that you've probably been underpaid for leading up to this point, and congrats on doing that successfully. And pro tip: don't go into management "for the money" unless you actually want to be a manager, and all the stress and frustration and initially being bad at it that comes with the territory. Whatever small pay increase you're getting now is not worth it in the short term, unless you actually want to attempt to grow into senior management and all that it entails. It's a different job and responsibility and it's not for everyone. Guinness fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 01:02
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spwrozek posted:How big a place are you out and do they have pay bands per level? Where I am at the move up a grade nets you a 10% raise, negotiation isn't possible. Maybe there is something similar (sounds line not). where you are at. where I am at depending on when in the year you get promoted you may or may not also get a merit bump at raise time. We have pretty rigid HR stuff though. There are pay bands, and I’m near the top of mine, 4th quartile, but how they work here is a mystery, even to my boss. I possibly could have negotiated up, but the fact that big boss said he was holding back my raise until after merit kicked in, as he wanted me to have that too is a positive sign. Not sure yet if this will bump me up a bonus teir though, 10 up to 15% would be a sweet cherry on top. I think compensation wise it will end up being what idve been happy with negotiating, just bummed I missed an opportunity to be seen as one who negotiated. On a positive side, if there is one, my boss told me that coming in hard would not be perceived well by big boss. Edit: at least I’m getting a P card, company phone, and possibly an office with a door. Also boss supporting me finally getting licensed in my state (been living here 3 years, starting to get embarrassing). Also no direct reports so yay? Tnuctip fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 01:51
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Might a thread title change to "never say a number - never sign without one" have merit?
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Jan 13, 2021 01:53
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Tnuctip posted:Ok, good advice! I’m not taking the criticism antagonisticly, it is a fair assessment of the situation. The kicker is that it happened so fast I was caught flat footed, which again my issue, but I imagine it happens fairly often. yeah i mean this is fairly common, you're excited and it's gonna be probably good for you and the company wants to move fast and you just get caught up in it Xguard86 posted:I think there is a good lesson here because it's sort of generally true that you will often not see a negotiation like this coming. Maybe it's a "201" level thing, but it's happened to me and others. oh absolutely. it's honestly good to just kind of assume that everything is a negotiation - just because it's a negotiation doesn't mean you have to hardball - and that allows you to proceed much more effectively
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Jan 13, 2021 03:06
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Had The Talk today with the HR person for the local government office for my hopefully upcoming job switch. It's a union job, pay bands go from $75,000-$95,000, I went ahead and asked for the 8th of ten steps at $91,000. I'm hoping they come back with $80-$85,000, but honestly I would totally take the $75,000 (it's a 25% pay increase with better benefits). Thank you thread for making me brave.
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Jan 14, 2021 00:46
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Thanatosian posted:Had The Talk today with the HR person for the local government office for my hopefully upcoming job switch. It's a union job, pay bands go from $75,000-$95,000, I went ahead and asked for the 8th of ten steps at $91,000. I'm hoping they come back with $80-$85,000, but honestly I would totally take the $75,000 (it's a 25% pay increase with better benefits). Good luck! 
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Jan 14, 2021 00:56
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Thanatosian posted:Had The Talk today with the HR person for the local government office for my hopefully upcoming job switch. It's a union job, pay bands go from $75,000-$95,000, I went ahead and asked for the 8th of ten steps at $91,000. I'm hoping they come back with $80-$85,000, but honestly I would totally take the $75,000 (it's a 25% pay increase with better benefits). Ooookaaayyyy... So, I'm expecting this offer to come in today, but also had a call with another job I'd been interviewing for that weren't as up-front about salary. We were talking next steps, and I said that I was almost certainly gonna accept this first offer, and they asked about a counter-offer, and I said "I mean... I would entertain one, but it would need to be six figures," figuring that was a gently caress-off number... and she said "let me talk to some people and get back to you." She said I was their number one candidate, and head-and-shoulders above the others. Over a year of applying and interviewing with no offers, and then this in the same week.
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Jan 15, 2021 00:32
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Thanatosian posted:Ooookaaayyyy... So, I'm expecting this offer to come in today, but also had a call with another job I'd been interviewing for that weren't as up-front about salary. We were talking next steps, and I said that I was almost certainly gonna accept this first offer, and they asked about a counter-offer, and I said "I mean... I would entertain one, but it would need to be six figures," figuring that was a gently caress-off number... and she said "let me talk to some people and get back to you."
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Jan 15, 2021 03:44
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Thanatosian posted:Ooookaaayyyy... So, I'm expecting this offer to come in today, but also had a call with another job I'd been interviewing for that weren't as up-front about salary. We were talking next steps, and I said that I was almost certainly gonna accept this first offer, and they asked about a counter-offer, and I said "I mean... I would entertain one, but it would need to be six figures," figuring that was a gently caress-off number... and she said "let me talk to some people and get back to you." looks like you need a bigger gently caress off number next time! fourwood posted:get that bread
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Jan 15, 2021 04:20
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fourwood posted:get that bread It's a great place to be!
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Jan 15, 2021 14:15
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