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If battery swapping was tenable, Tesla would have continued with it. The time savings over 200kW+ charging don't really outweigh the complexity. Keeping enough charged batteries at a given station just doesn't scale, especially with the apparent lack of supply across the industry. I'd imagine you'll get more revenue from putting each additional pack into a vehicle or selling excess capacity.
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Jan 10, 2021 17:24
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Yeah, battery swaps will never scale out in the face of higher DC charging capability. We don't swap fuel tanks in ICE vehicles because it is quick and easy to just fill one back up when necessary. One thing that would really help would be to unify the charging plugs/protocols so any vehicle can charge at any station and expect similar results.
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Jan 10, 2021 18:12
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So what's the etiquette for charging when visiting family and friends? Should I be paying for the electricity? It seems like it's not a lot but still enough money I should at least offer and if all my guests were charging it could really add up over the course of a (non-COVID) year. If I needed to fill up from a petrol can at a friend's house I'd definitely expect to reimburse them for that even if it was just beer. Is it acceptable to ask someone if you can use their charger if they're already plugged into it?
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Jan 10, 2021 20:20
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Yeep posted:So what's the etiquette for charging when visiting family and friends? Should I be paying for the electricity? It seems like it's not a lot but still enough money I should at least offer and if all my guests were charging it could really add up over the course of a (non-COVID) year. If I needed to fill up from a petrol can at a friend's house I'd definitely expect to reimburse them for that even if it was just beer. Is it acceptable to ask someone if you can use their charger if they're already plugged into it? Do you not have enough juice to get home? If no just don't plug it in
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Jan 10, 2021 20:21
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My wife and I are trying to decide between the 2021 Honda Clarity (touring trim level) vs. the 2021 Prius Prime (LE trim level). Does anyone have any opinions there? Government EV incentives + the costco auto program make the two pretty comparable in cost. Right now, we are basically trying to decide whether we like the comfier interior + longer electric range of the Clarity more than the hatchback + total range of the Prius Prime. Once I start commuting again, my commute will be long enough that the Clarity's electric range will be able to make it to work (where there are EV chargers), while the Prius Prime's range will fall about 10 miles short. But we also like to occasionally go on the occasional 400 mile road trip (From NorCal to LA or Vegas), and the extra range on the Prius Prime is pretty tempting there. Our other car is a sedan, but we are looking at replacing it with a hybrid SUV in a couple years when we are ready for kids. But in the meantime, the extra cargo room in the Prime would be pretty useful for the occasional Ikea trip, etc. Of course, there might also be factors which we should be considering, but aren't, which is why I made this post.
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Jan 10, 2021 20:58
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Yeep posted:So what's the etiquette for charging when visiting family and friends? Should I be paying for the electricity? It seems like it's not a lot but still enough money I should at least offer and if all my guests were charging it could really add up over the course of a (non-COVID) year. If I needed to fill up from a petrol can at a friend's house I'd definitely expect to reimburse them for that even if it was just beer. Is it acceptable to ask someone if you can use their charger if they're already plugged into it? Just ask? Surely if these are your family and friends you know them well enough that you can just communicate with them like you would about anything else? I don’t think you need to internet to weigh on here.
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Jan 10, 2021 20:59
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VikingofRock posted:My wife and I are trying to decide between the 2021 Honda Clarity (touring trim level) vs. the 2021 Prius Prime (LE trim level). Does anyone have any opinions there? Government EV incentives + the costco auto program make the two pretty comparable in cost. In what little I have heard about the Prius Prime online it seems to be a well liked vehicle. Keep in mind coming up 10 miles short on EV only range is not an issue with a plug in hybrid, the vehicle tracks the average age of the fuel in the tank and will force you to burn it up if it exceeds a certain age. You have to burn up the fuel eventually even if your commute is only 5 miles.
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Jan 10, 2021 21:12
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Especially if you're getting a hybrid SUV in the near future, consider going full EV. If you go on a road trip that required more range than your full EV, take the SUV. If you go on a road trip before you get the SUV, rent a car for the trip. Cars are big purchases, and you should buy for the 99.99% of trips, not the .01%. You wouldn't buy a pickup because you might need to replace your fridge sometime in the next 5 years, right?
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Jan 10, 2021 22:42
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Is there any reason why Toyota doesn't go plugin hybrid? I saw the 2021 Sienna minivan is a hybrid now, but doesn't look like a plugin option. I don't usually consider toyotas anyway though because their dealerships are nightmare to deal with and they don't deal for poo poo.
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Jan 10, 2021 22:54
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priznat posted:Is there any reason why Toyota doesn't go plugin hybrid? I saw the 2021 Sienna minivan is a hybrid now, but doesn't look like a plugin option. I don't usually consider toyotas anyway though because their dealerships are nightmare to deal with and they don't deal for poo poo. The Prius Prime is a plug-in, as is the Rav 4 Prime.
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Jan 10, 2021 22:57
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VikingofRock posted:The Prius Prime is a plug-in, as is the Rav 4 Prime. Oh interesting, I guess they will start with a couple models and roll it out to more then.
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Jan 10, 2021 23:59
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priznat posted:Is there any reason why Toyota doesn't go plugin hybrid? I saw the 2021 Sienna minivan is a hybrid now, but doesn't look like a plugin option. I don't usually consider toyotas anyway though because their dealerships are nightmare to deal with and they don't deal for poo poo. they put more of their eggs in the hybrid basket, and for next steps, they're going hard on hydrogen. the new Mirai hydrogen sedan is quoted as having some ridiculous economy figures, and they're starting to scale that into commercial vehicle products as well. Not coincidentally, Japan in general is pushing for hydrogen. Indiana_Krom posted:Yeah, battery swaps will never scale out in the face of higher DC charging capability. We don't swap fuel tanks in ICE vehicles because it is quick and easy to just fill one back up when necessary. Battery swaps will have trouble until everyone is using the exact same size and input of battery packs. Battery swapping is apparently finding a home in China but that has solved some of the problems.
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Jan 11, 2021 02:41
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harperdc posted:Battery swaps will have trouble until everyone is using the exact same size and input of battery packs. Battery swapping is apparently finding a home in China but that has solved some of the problems. I think battery swap fits the Chinese market well. Almost no one lives in a single family home and home charging is a challenge. If NIO or whoever can build up a battery swap infrastructure it can work very well combined with standard charging stations.
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Jan 11, 2021 05:22
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I'd be concerned with long term reliability with battery swapping. I can see all kinds of fuckery coming into play with cheap low quality packs floating around, compatibility issues as vehicles age, etc. Manufacturers can't even agree on a lead acid battery size for current ICE and hybrid vehicles, you expect them to agree on a standard battery pack? Then I start thinking of how horribly maintained the battery is in the average vehicle. I just see so many ways for this to go sideways.
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Jan 11, 2021 05:47
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OEMs have agreed on all manner of other standards, so it's not like there is no precedent for standardization - although I agree with you that it seems unlikely as it heavily constrains a lot of other engineering decisions battery packs have significant electronic controls contained within them so it would be relatively easy to serialize and track them
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Jan 11, 2021 14:47
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Elmnt80 posted:I'd be concerned with long term reliability with battery swapping. I can see all kinds of fuckery coming into play with cheap low quality packs floating around, compatibility issues as vehicles age, etc. There are any number of low-quality parts or maintenance items that can be cheaped out on with ICE engines as it is, and from a technical standpoint there’s less to really go wrong plugging and un-plugging batteries versus opening up engines or transmissions. so then the question for OEMs is how you get people to use those changing facilities to keep a high enough volume of your packs around to make it worthwhile. The other benefit in China is that infrastructure is being built out now and doesn’t have to be adapted to 60+ years of legacy infrastructure. Also, the built-in advantages of a more authoritarian regime making sure things get done  The other real point to bring up is all these big markets are approaching things in different ways, and have different priorities, making life as an OEM a bit difficult.
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Jan 11, 2021 15:19
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I don't think there's a single modern company that would choose to tie up many, many millions of dollars of saleable inventory to sit on a shelf in a rental pool at strategically placed servicing points. A third party service provider, maybe, but then the rent they would have to charge on those battery packs would be exorbitant to justify the investment.
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Jan 11, 2021 18:47
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Finger Prince posted:I don't think there's a single modern company that would choose to tie up many, many millions of dollars of saleable inventory to sit on a shelf in a rental pool at strategically placed servicing points. I mean, this is what rental car companies do now. I can certainly see someone trying to make it work, assuming manufacturers agreed on a standard, which will never happen.
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Jan 11, 2021 19:48
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YOLOsubmarine posted:I mean, this is what rental car companies do now. I can certainly see someone trying to make it work, assuming manufacturers agreed on a standard, which will never happen. And look how much they charge. Who's going to pay $50+ per day to rent a battery? Even if you normalize the cost over a long term contract, you've essentially got a monthly battery lease payment that's a significant percentage of your actual car lease/finance payment. Renault tried this with their initial forays into EVs, to limited success (I think you might still be able to get EV Kangoos and Zoe's with battery leases on top, but it didn't prove to be a popular arrangement).
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Jan 11, 2021 20:09
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A battery controller that tracks its own data long term, on a standard protocol that could be scanned by any tire/battery store, with pro-rated trade in value and equivalent sale prices could work. It's just addition and subtraction. If battery sizes were standardized, a lot of places could stock them. Will it happen? Hell no, that's too much effort. Charging infrastructure for the trade-ins would be a problem, though.
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Jan 11, 2021 22:51
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Finger Prince posted:And look how much they charge. Who's going to pay $50+ per day to rent a battery? Even if you normalize the cost over a long term contract, you've essentially got a monthly battery lease payment that's a significant percentage of your actual car lease/finance payment. Renault tried this with their initial forays into EVs, to limited success (I think you might still be able to get EV Kangoos and Zoe's with battery leases on top, but it didn't prove to be a popular arrangement). the Zoe battery lease provides no additional utility to the end customer, unlike a swappable battery it will obviously cost less to lease a battery than an entire car, so no, nobody would ever pay $50+ per day to rent a battery?
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Jan 11, 2021 22:55
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Finger Prince posted:I think you might still be able to get EV Kangoos and Zoe's with battery leases on top, but it didn't prove to be a popular arrangement. Most of European Zoe sales are with rental batteries to limit sticker shock(going for owned battery means about 12k€ more). It makes used sales a mess as you need to restart the contract with Renault or next time you go service it they will impound the car.
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Jan 12, 2021 00:18
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 So is Sony going to make the Vision S an actual thing or what? When they first showed it off I think it was supposed to be just a tech demo for their gadgets but them seem to be going through too much effort to leave it it at that. They're now doing testing on public roads even: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtyojR38K0c Would be funny if they beat Apple to the car and this becomes the iphone of EVs.
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Jan 12, 2021 20:50
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the car chassis and drivetrain for an EV seems very much like something that could be a "white box" product-- provide a body design and software and now you're a car company.
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Jan 12, 2021 21:01
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What proprietary standard will it use that you have to license from Sony?
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Jan 12, 2021 21:08
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pop in a Power Stick PRO-HG Duo HX and you are ready to go
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Jan 12, 2021 21:08
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On the upside, you can hook up a few of your NP-F camera batteries and off you go
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Jan 12, 2021 21:30
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Given my playstation experience I would fully expect the car to stop working for upwards of a couple hours as it downloads and slowly installs a patch that enables a photo album in the infotainment system you will never use (still salty about this kind of stuff from my ps3 days)
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Jan 12, 2021 21:32
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that promo vid looks fake as hell for some reason not saying it is but it just has a weird feel to it
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Jan 12, 2021 22:29
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:that promo vid looks fake as hell for some reason Agree. I tried pausing and stepping frame by frame. It looks a bit too good I would say. Your car doesn't stay clean for very long on roads like that. It's either really good CGI or lots of post production effects which gives it a fake look. Even real cars that are available for sale have ads where they are CGI'd or look weird.
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Jan 12, 2021 22:36
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priznat posted:Given my playstation experience I would fully expect the car to stop working for upwards of a couple hours as it downloads and slowly installs a patch that enables a photo album in the infotainment system you will never use (still salty about this kind of stuff from my ps3 days) For my experience with media apps on the PS4, the infotainment system will slowly fill up with sponsored apps over time, making it more and more difficult to access the map software you want.
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Jan 12, 2021 22:54
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And yet, despite all that, it is somehow still better than the Microsoft car, and nobody can explain how to anyone's satisfaction.Ola posted:Agree. I tried pausing and stepping frame by frame. It looks a bit too good I would say. Your car doesn't stay clean for very long on roads like that. It's either really good CGI or lots of post production effects which gives it a fake look. Even real cars that are available for sale have ads where they are CGI'd or look weird. They aren't selling you a car, they're selling you the platonic ideal of a car.
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Jan 12, 2021 23:14
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Or they never intend to sell it, and just want that sweet, sweet tech/car company investment money.
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Jan 12, 2021 23:58
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mobby_6kl posted:
The answer is no, they're never going to build it. It's incredibly difficult it is to be even a niche auto manufacturer and not lose your shirt. You're expected to support a car for decades with replacement parts and you need a network of service locations unless you're McLaren and make your customers pay to send out specialists from the UK to work on your F1. It's one of the main reasons I'm skeptical that Tesla will get to Toyota levels of production in the next 10 years. It took them 12 years to get to 400k cars a year and I suspect it'll take them at least that long to get to get to 10x that number.
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Jan 13, 2021 00:10
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GM announced its EV delivery van today, with the first 500 going to FedEx this year. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/01/12/gm-unveils-ev-van-as-part-of-new-commercial-unit-fedex-first-customer.html 250 mile range, under a new brand called BrightDrop, which is supposed to release a wide range of electric products, whatever that means (charging equipment?). Wide availability not until 2022. I'm excited for this though.
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Jan 13, 2021 00:40
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Charles posted:What proprietary standard will it use that you have to license from Sony? They will follow Tesla, but worse... Won't be J1772 compatible. Can only use Sony "DC Duo Pro" fast chargers.
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Jan 13, 2021 01:27
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stevewm posted:They will follow Tesla, but worse...
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Jan 13, 2021 01:37
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It'll be cheaper to buy the PS4 branded accessory.
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Jan 13, 2021 04:48
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Charles posted:GM announced its EV delivery van today, with the first 500 going to FedEx this year. That looks like an abomination. I bet it it'll sell well though.
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Jan 13, 2021 04:52
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Shamino posted:That looks like an abomination. I bet it it'll sell well though. It's a delivery van, who cares. But the whole article didn't load last time I looked at it (or I didn't scroll all the way  ), their other product coming out soon is an electric motorized pallet. They're also selling logistics software too.
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Jan 13, 2021 05:11
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