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MassRafTer posted:Why should he have agreed to help out the company that was letting him go as a cost cutting move? When you get fired from your job do you offer go mop the floors? Being fired seems like a bit of a different circumstance. If it matters I don't think Vince was in the right either. In that circumstance just strip the guy and move on instead of making promises you don't intend to keep. And as I think about it I can see Bret's side of things a little better. Considering how Hogan wouldn't job to Bret and that was fine then it's kind of bullshit Bret can't have his way just the same.
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Jan 12, 2021 02:54
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MassRafTer posted:Why should he have agreed to help out the company that was letting him go as a cost cutting move? When you get fired from your job do you offer go mop the floors? yes if you're norman smiley, ralphus, or jim duggan
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Jan 12, 2021 03:02
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TheKingslayer posted:Being fired seems like a bit of a different circumstance. How is it a bit of a different circumstance? Ok, let's pretend it is. Let's say you are let go for budget cut backs. Would you go and try to help out your boss, especially in a way designed to hurt your ability to earn money in the long term? And give up your contractually agreed upon right to reasonable creative control? Vince McMahon begged him to stay a year earlier, gave him these speeches about loyalty and how valued he was and then backed out on the deal. It's bullshit anyone thinks Bret didn't do exactly what he should have.
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Jan 12, 2021 03:06
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MassRafTer posted:How is it a bit of a different circumstance? Ok, let's pretend it is. Let's say you are let go for budget cut backs. Would you go and try to help out your boss, especially in a way designed to hurt your ability to earn money in the long term? And give up your contractually agreed upon right to reasonable creative control? The reason I think it's different it's different is because I was under the assumption Bret wasn't suddenly let go but knew he wasn't going to make the same money and was told to make a deal WCW. That being said, I see your point and you're right, Bret didn't owe Vince anything and it's made even worse that Vince wouldn't keep his promises.
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Jan 12, 2021 03:14
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The should he/shouldn't he stuff aside; since when did Vince ever give CC?
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Jan 12, 2021 03:58
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ChrisBTY posted:The should he/shouldn't he stuff aside; since when did Vince ever give CC? He saw Bret as a lifer and he probably gave it thinking a pretty big company man would rarely if ever use it
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Jan 12, 2021 04:14
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MassRafTer posted:How is it a bit of a different circumstance? Ok, let's pretend it is. Let's say you are let go for budget cut backs. Would you go and try to help out your boss, especially in a way designed to hurt your ability to earn money in the long term? And give up your contractually agreed upon right to reasonable creative control? Dunno the veracity of it, but I've also heard that Shawn was also running his mouth and basically said he was going to be completely unprofessional especially where it pertains to Bret (perhaps not exactly in those words). In an industry where there needs to be a significant amount of trust and reliance on the other people in the ring, why should it be on Bret to bend over backwards to accommodate the whims an insufferable, drugged-out shithead like Shawn Michaels? Honestly, it was loving stupid to even put those two in a match to begin with, and surely there were suitable alternative match-ups.
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Jan 12, 2021 05:01
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Vince didn't want anyone else winning the title, he wanted Shawn. Despite Shawn you know screwing Vince over multiple times over the last couple years with clearly unprofessional behavior
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Jan 12, 2021 05:25
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Bret is such a mark for himself and the business that I fully believe him if he said he wanted to lose the title on RAW in America, instead of PPV in Canada.
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Jan 12, 2021 05:37
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It's also quite a sliding doors moment for the industry as a whole. I assume Austin's career would have more or less gone the way it did, but the way it had a ripple effect on the lives of those adjacent to Bret as well is something to consider - Bulldog wouldn't have gone to WCW, where he ended up with a hosed up back due to Warrior and his stupid teleportation bullshit, and then there's Owen. Who knows with Anvil, though.
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Jan 12, 2021 05:41
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It's real baffling how much sway Shawn had with Vince despite being "a vanilla midget" who was incredibly mercurial even before getting pilled up. Shawn was an incredible worker in the ring, but everything outside of that should've disqualified him from being a top guy. In the end, he really wasn't, but not because Vince didn't try, as his "quitting" after losing a fistfight w/ Bret backstage took him off screen for almost 3 months, then there was the back injury and addiction that had him leave for several years. IIRC the times he did have the belt he wasn't much of a mover of ratings or tickets. I recently just listened to a huge youtube playlist of Bryan & Vinny reviewing RAW edited from their podcasts, even Bryan as one of the world's biggest Shawn Michaels fans is baffled why he would've been trusted with a top spot. They also reminded me just how actually lovely RAW was week-to-week for years outside of the bright spots of Bret v. Shawn, Bret v. Austin, Austin v. everyone, and how awful, terrible, and wonderfully entertaining Sid was. The terribleness of the race war stories. Just how long the Godwins were actually there and featured. Exaltations of how did WWF actually survive because they were putting out a lovely show like 90% of time and content, way before they went public and could fall back on that. My critiques on Shawn should be taken with the knowledge that I was, and am, an enormous Bret Hart fan and still kinda don't like Shawn from when I was a kid. And Bret was definitely hosed because Vince signed him to a 20 year, $1 million/year contract, then just a year later told Bret he was gonna end it, a power I highly doubt Bret had in the contract, but what Bret did have was "reasonable creative control" and all Bret didn't want to do was to job anywhere in Canada, where he was literally a national hero, which is something I don't think Vince quite fully comprehended. B&V clips also reminded me that Vince took a potshot on that sit-down interview he taped with JR, making sure that his shiner was on prominent display, and JR asking Vince if he were going to press charges, and Vince coyly insinuating that if an actual fight would've broken out, he totally could've beat up Bret Hart. Vince also probably didn't want to start up lawsuits because that "reasonable control" probably would've bit him in the rear end, much like the non-competes no one but Brock has ever challenged, which of course meant when rubber was about to hit the road in the trial a settlement occurred, and Vince loves Brock. edit: writing that thing about Vince thinking he could beat Bret Hart in a fight reminded me that Shane wanted Vince to buy UFC around 98-00ish with the idea that Shane would totally fight and beat those guys because he'd been in street fights around his hometown. smikey fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 06:26
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I think that whole period shows us that sometimes you just don't have a top guy no matter how hard you try. Neither Bret nor Shawn were a real solution to the problems the company was having and things only got better when a huge star was created in Austin. I don't think there was anything that would have change that, to make either of them a star who could turn the company around.
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Jan 12, 2021 06:29
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Maigius posted:That art style is completely hideous. Is this that Big Mouth show?
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Jan 12, 2021 06:29
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Defiance Industries posted:I think that whole period shows us that sometimes you just don't have a top guy no matter how hard you try. Neither Bret nor Shawn were a real solution to the problems the company was having and things only got better when a huge star was created in Austin. I don't think there was anything that would have change that, to make either of them a star who could turn the company around. Business had definitely picked up when Bret was slotted into the top spot after the Diesel disaster, but I think the overall problem is what Vince was booking was 99% absolute dogshit. Remember the garbage guy that wrestled? the hockey player that wrestled? the plumber? stockcar driver? the aforementioned pig farmers (two of them!) and in a vacuum the Undertaker is loving stupid and ridiculous, but he was one of the last monsters made to fight Hogan. edit: poo poo, Taker was absolutely blessed to be paired with Percy Pringle to talk for him, because Undertaker couldn't do a promo to save his life or sell any match until 15 years into his career smikey fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 06:37
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smikey posted:edit: writing that thing about Vince thinking he could beat Bret Hart in a fight reminded me that Shane wanted Vince to buy UFC around 98-00ish with the idea that Shane would totally fight and beat those guys because he'd been in street fights around his hometown. Friend of a friend kind of story but apparently Shane used to party with Chuck Liddell at some point and Chuck claimed Shane was the craziest person he ever met. This is no confirmation Shane is a good fighter but I've always been curious what Shane would do to make Chuck say that.
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Jan 12, 2021 06:39
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TheKingslayer posted:Friend of a friend kind of story but apparently Shane used to party with Chuck Liddell at some point and Chuck claimed Shane was the craziest person he ever met. This is no confirmation Shane is a good fighter but I've always been curious what Shane would do to make Chuck say that. Probably a massive amount of some powdered narcotic
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Jan 12, 2021 06:40
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smikey posted:Business had definitely picked up when Bret was slotted into the top spot after the Diesel disaster, but I think the overall problem is what Vince was booking was 99% absolute dogshit. Remember the garbage guy that wrestled? the hockey player that wrestled? the plumber? stockcar driver? the aforementioned pig farmers (two of them!) and in a vacuum the Undertaker is loving stupid and ridiculous, but he was one of the last monsters made to fight Hogan. I mean to his credit, Taker sold the poo poo out of that ridiculous character without saying a word. The only other one who comes close was Matt Borne as Evil Doink
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Jan 12, 2021 06:42
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smikey posted:Probably a massive amount of some powdered narcotic
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Jan 12, 2021 07:03
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smikey posted:Business had definitely picked up when Bret was slotted into the top spot after the Diesel disaster, but I think the overall problem is what Vince was booking was 99% absolute dogshit. Remember the garbage guy that wrestled? the hockey player that wrestled? the plumber? stockcar driver? the aforementioned pig farmers (two of them!) and in a vacuum the Undertaker is loving stupid and ridiculous, but he was one of the last monsters made to fight Hogan. 96 is a weird year creatively as the product was better than Diesel's run for the most part and you got some edge with Mankinda and Austin catching fire around Survivior series with his run with Bret. And Micheals started off strong in his run with some good matches and hot feuds But you still have the end of the New Generation around in the product, with Shawn's baby face character being just way to over the top kid friendly but at the same time as a Heartthrob. Rocky Maiva being way to white meat even for the 80's and the cartoon characters still around. And than you just have the awful stuff and vile stuff like Jake and Goldust. And it kinda of shows as WWE made money in the April quarter but ended up losing money for the rest of the year as Shawn's reign started to tank (both due to the character and Shawn being Shawn). It's that tanking and Mania being down (again Shawn didn't help there) which led to Vince wanting to get out Bret's deal as they lost a lot of money Except you know by the time Vince asked Bret to go to Eric the WWE was profitable. Going up to full price for the In Your House helped greatly and Bret/Austin did amazing business with Canada especially being profitable even with the difference in the dollar
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Jan 12, 2021 07:38
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Nick Jr. Face posted:I don't know how many people remember Shane doing PBP for Heat when it first premiered but that would explain him. Dude was loving wired. HERE COMES MY POPS YEAH! MY POPS THE OWNER OF THE WWF MY POPS
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Jan 12, 2021 08:02
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MassRafTer posted:How is it a bit of a different circumstance? Ok, let's pretend it is. Let's say you are let go for budget cut backs. Would you go and try to help out your boss, especially in a way designed to hurt your ability to earn money in the long term? And give up your contractually agreed upon right to reasonable creative control? This is it. Sure Bret is Bret's biggest fan but end of the day no one made Vince sign a deal giving him more money than he could afford with creative control and no one made Vince renege on that deal. Bret asked for what he was entitled to, he's not the bad guy in this scenario. I mean can anyone who punched Vince really be the bad guy?
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Jan 12, 2021 11:05
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MassRafTer posted:How is it a bit of a different circumstance? Ok, let's pretend it is. Let's say you are let go for budget cut backs. Would you go and try to help out your boss, especially in a way designed to hurt your ability to earn money in the long term? And give up your contractually agreed upon right to reasonable creative control?
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Jan 12, 2021 11:53
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https://twitter.com/DeepCutsWCW/status/1349038316902117376
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Jan 12, 2021 18:02
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TheKingslayer posted:Friend of a friend kind of story but apparently Shane used to party with Chuck Liddell at some point and Chuck claimed Shane was the craziest person he ever met. This is no confirmation Shane is a good fighter but I've always been curious what Shane would do to make Chuck say that.
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Jan 12, 2021 18:19
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Halloween Jack posted:Liddell has also trained Glenn Beck, so it sounds like he's not averse to humouring some rich idiot for an easy payday. Yeah I feel like there are far worse ways to make a buck. I'd have been really curious to see how that went, too. Back when I worked in local radio I met Glenn when he did a show from our studios while doing some stage tour in like 04 or 05. I'm 6'6" and I was nearly eye to eye with him. Had no idea he was such a big dude.
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Jan 12, 2021 18:33
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HBK gets such a pass for his 96 face run being poo poo, but business was so down in WWF I don't think anyone cares. He had a few good matches (and threw tantrums in some of them), but he was just plain unlikable as a babyface. They even brought in José Lothario as his mentor to get roughed up for heat and it did very little. Also, the Ironman match sucked. Vince seemed to be terrified of losing HBK to WCW and bent to so many of his whims. While it would have affected WWF to lose him, I'm not sure how MUCH it would have hurt. Also, even with the influence of Nash and Hall, I can't see HBK rising to the same main event heights in WCW. Tato fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 22:10
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96 Shawn vs Hogan (any time) would have absolutely blown up WCW.
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Jan 12, 2021 22:23
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Defiance Industries posted:96 Shawn vs Hogan (any time) would have absolutely blown up WCW. I would have said the same thing about Bret Hart entering WCW fresh after the screwjob and that being impossible to mess up...but, uh... This HBK fella is just too small, brother. He can work with Syxx in the Cruiserweight Division.
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Jan 12, 2021 22:35
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We probably would have gotten the "Shawn sells every Hogan move by shooting himself out of an invisible cannon" match a few years earlier
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Jan 12, 2021 22:50
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DeathChicken posted:We probably would have gotten the "Shawn sells every Hogan move by shooting himself out of an invisible cannon" match a few years earlier This was by no means the best HBK match ever, but it is absolutely one of the most entertaining HBK matches ever.
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Jan 12, 2021 22:54
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Tato posted:I would have said the same thing about Bret Hart entering WCW fresh after the screwjob and that being impossible to mess up...but, uh... No, like "they would have burned the whole place to the ground around them rather than letting the other guy win."
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Jan 12, 2021 23:29
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Shawn would've been at the US title scene had WCW signed him, though. Right?
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Jan 12, 2021 23:41
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Shawn going to WCW is one of the great What if's cause if he did go and join the NWO it would have been big money at first and probably more than Bret due to the Clique....but Shawn would of 100% started to politic and it might cause WCW to start to collapse earlier or faster.
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Jan 12, 2021 23:43
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Red posted:Shawn would've been at the US title scene had WCW signed him, though. Right? I'm assuming he goes over AFTER his buddies Hall and Nash. IC title-era Shawn would have just gotten rolled over by Hogan no question.
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Jan 12, 2021 23:53
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SatoshiMiwa posted:Shawn going to WCW is one of the great What if's cause if he did go and join the NWO it would have been big money at first and probably more than Bret due to the Clique....but Shawn would of 100% started to politic and it might cause WCW to start to collapse earlier or faster. I’m going off a memory of some Observer summaries I read a few years ago, so I could be getting this wrong, but I believe around 99-ish, Meltzer reported that there was some discussion within WWF of letting Shawn go to WCW because the damage they assumed he would cause backstage would help them more than actually having him around would.
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Jan 13, 2021 00:08
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Diabolik900 posted:I’m going off a memory of some Observer summaries I read a few years ago, so I could be getting this wrong, but I believe around 99-ish, Meltzer reported that there was some discussion within WWF of letting Shawn go to WCW because the damage they assumed he would cause backstage would help them more than actually having him around would. 99? Wasn't he hurt by then?
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Jan 13, 2021 00:48
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'96 HBK's worst offense was ruining Vader's run and killing his aura in the process
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Jan 13, 2021 00:56
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to be fair Vader’s lovely WWF run wasn’t all HBK’s fault although he certainly contributed
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Jan 13, 2021 01:08
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rujasu posted:99? Wasn't he hurt by then? he was but he was still on payroll and used on screen. there were attempts at a comeback in late 1999 and late 00/early 01 before he cleaned himself up and returned in 02
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Jan 13, 2021 01:47
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rujasu posted:99? Wasn't he hurt by then? Yeah, and if it’s true, that’s probably a big factor in why they saw less value in keeping him, but he was still being used sporadically on tv. Who knows how far these conversations even went though? It could’ve just been one guy’s idea that got immediately shut down.
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Jan 13, 2021 01:47
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