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Hedgehog Pie posted:I'd heard it before but thought it had been debunked as myth. Did they bring that up on the Dark Side of the Ring specials? I do remember reading that the crime scene investigators were confused by Daniel's visible injuries, and weren't quite sure what, exactly, Benoit did. They started looking at tapes of Benoit, and when they saw him use the crossface, they immediately realized it matched up. I have a really young kid, and the idea of what Daniel must have gone through is... just loving awful. gently caress Chris Benoit.
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Jan 14, 2021 16:28
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Spuckuk posted:This is a very big list of suggested matches for everything up to and including some of 2018. Anything in gold is, well, gold There's over 1900 matches on this thing 
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Jan 14, 2021 16:33
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The Cameo posted:There's over 1900 matches on this thing yeah 
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Jan 14, 2021 16:48
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I've been thinking lately about the mechanics of pro wrestling and how matches are actually put together. Reading about wrestling history from different sources, every now and then you hear about a match that's fully planned out spot-for-spot, or on the other hand a match that's almost entirely off the cuff and called live. The vast majority seem to sit somewhere in between. I'm curious how this has changed over time and varies between organizations or styles. My guess would be that modern WWE or NJPW big main events are probably meticulously planned, but that matches progressively loosen up as you go down the card or to smaller events. But how planned are the most planned matches truly? Choreographing down to the level of individual strikes for a 30 minute match seems implausible, but improvising the more complex NJPW-style strike exchanges seems pretty impossible too. For the most part when I'm actually watching a match, I really can't tell one way or the other what's going on, which I find pretty drat impressive. I'm honestly not sure which way (planned, improvised, mixed) is more challenging to pull off. It all seems so easy to mess up. Are there any good resources in particular that go into this side of things?
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Jan 14, 2021 17:57
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Answers Me posted:OK, as you’re desperate for a change of subject, indulge me with a question I’m sure has been asked over and over. The series of matches that really defined the Gedo booked era of New Japan is Tanahashi vs Okada. That's a handful of matches from 2012 until 2019 & it really is the most important feud in modern New Japan history. It's a rivalry that really rewards you from watching from match to match, with call backs to previous encounters, the sort of in-match storytelling New Japan have done so well. February 12, 2012 June 16, 2012 January 4th, 2013 April 7th, 2013 August 10th, 2013 October 14th, 2013 January 4th, 2015 January 4th, 2016 August 12th, 2016 May 5th, 2018 August 10th, 2018 September 23rd, 2018 July 6th, 2019
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Jan 14, 2021 17:58
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It seems like most matches are loosely gone over beforehand for the important bits, then called in the ring for the rest of it. There are exceptions (notably DDP and Randy Savage planned *everything* out in advance), and it usually annoyed the wrestlers who didn't ascribe to this idea
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Jan 14, 2021 18:01
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DeathChicken posted:It seems like most matches are loosely gone over beforehand for the important bits, then called in the ring for the rest of it. There are exceptions (notably DDP and Randy Savage planned *everything* out in advance), and it usually annoyed the wrestlers who didn't ascribe to this idea
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Jan 14, 2021 18:07
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It seems like the more you micromanage something like a match the more obvious it will be if something goes wrong logically. I don't know enough about what matches are pre-planned or to what extent enough to know if that's true though.
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Jan 14, 2021 18:12
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WWE matches these days have a tendency to fall off the rails really quickly when a spot goes wrong. I think the first women’s Hell in a Cell match was like that, where a table didn’t break and Charlotte and Sasha were just lost as to what to do next
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Jan 14, 2021 18:14
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Some wrestlers and fans look down on extensively planning matches, but I have to think that there are certain workers where that is absolutely the right thing to do. Usually no-hopers, non-wrestlers and celebrities. I feel like DDP even got a passable match out of The Renegade for this reason? What other sorts of examples can you guys think of of this being the case? jesus WEP posted:WWE matches these days have a tendency to fall off the rails really quickly when a spot goes wrong. I think the first women’s Hell in a Cell match was like that, where a table didn’t break and Charlotte and Sasha were just lost as to what to do next I feel like there might have been an Elimination Chamber match as well? When Mark Henry's pod was broken prematurely so he just joined in and everything fell to pieces (not just the pod)? Hedgehog Pie fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 18:18
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wwe often makes their dev talent rehearse matches and segments spot for spot, idk of anyone ever saw that nxt uk leak from a while back but it explains a lot about the root of their problem in developmental
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Jan 14, 2021 18:20
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Hedgehog Pie posted:Some wrestlers and fans look down on extensively planning matches, but I have to think that there are certain workers where that is absolutely the right thing to do. Usually no-hopers, non-wrestlers and celebrities. I feel like DDP even got a passable match out of The Renegade for this reason? Yeah, Ziggler and Miz I think just stared at each other for like a minute.
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Jan 14, 2021 18:30
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Gaz-L posted:Yeah, Ziggler and Miz I think just stared at each other for like a minute. And then Ziggler started yelling instructions clear as day.
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Jan 14, 2021 19:20
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Didn't Pat Patterson plan out the Warrior/Hogan match to get the most out of it?
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Jan 14, 2021 19:52
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Decades posted:I've been thinking lately about the mechanics of pro wrestling and how matches are actually put together. Reading about wrestling history from different sources, every now and then you hear about a match that's fully planned out spot-for-spot, or on the other hand a match that's almost entirely off the cuff and called live. The vast majority seem to sit somewhere in between. I'm curious how this has changed over time and varies between organizations or styles. My guess would be that modern WWE or NJPW big main events are probably meticulously planned, but that matches progressively loosen up as you go down the card or to smaller events. But how planned are the most planned matches truly? Choreographing down to the level of individual strikes for a 30 minute match seems implausible, but improvising the more complex NJPW-style strike exchanges seems pretty impossible too. It puts me in mind a bit of public speaking. I have to do talks and classes and stuff as part of my job, and there's really three ways you can do that. If it's a subject you don't know at all, you will probably have the text of exactly what you want to say. If it's a subject you've talked about before and you're comfortable with, you might have a few subjects or just a handful of bullet points. And sometimes you can just speak from the heart with no notes at all. Of course, what makes it more complicated is doing it with at least one other person who has to cooperate with you. But again, the better you know that person, the better you'll be at knowing what needs to be done with them.
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Jan 14, 2021 20:00
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Lamuella posted:It puts me in mind a bit of public speaking. I have to do talks and classes and stuff as part of my job, and there's really three ways you can do that. If it's a subject you don't know at all, you will probably have the text of exactly what you want to say. If it's a subject you've talked about before and you're comfortable with, you might have a few subjects or just a handful of bullet points. And sometimes you can just speak from the heart with no notes at all. Its like acting: Some actors like to get very method, others are "have you tried acting, dear boy, its so much easier", some like a lot of improv, some like to stick exactly to a script. Audience ideally will never know as long as the performances work on camera/stage. Problems occur when you force an actor who is great at improv but bad at scripts to stick rigidly to the script, or when you force someone with no experience or aptitude with improv to wing it. Which is when we get things like "Oh, we hosed up that spot. Better just do the exact same spot again!"
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Jan 14, 2021 20:04
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Halloween Jack posted:Didn't Pat Patterson plan out the Warrior/Hogan match to get the most out of it? This kind of thing makes sense to me - these kinds of brief superhero style clashes tend to be mostly high spots anyway so I'd figure they'd be neatly laid out. The mind boggling thing is stuff like the G1. Not only do guys have like 10 twenty minute long matches with unique opponents over just a couple weeks, but they also tend to end up some of the best matches of the year. I'm pretty curious how much planning goes into those. Do they still fit in wwe-style rehearsal? Or does Ibushi just go up to Taichi one afternoon like "So I'm thinking tonight we just kick each other in the legs, cool?" E: speaking/acting analogies are helpful
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Jan 14, 2021 20:06
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Most guys in the G1 will have wrestled each other dozens of times before, so I imagine that'd make it a bit easier to get that one laid out. Also most guys in the G1 are literally among the best wrestlers in the world, so I imagine that helps too.
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Jan 14, 2021 20:12
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Halloween Jack posted:Didn't Pat Patterson plan out the Warrior/Hogan match to get the most out of it? I've always been curious about this. Do they write down and plan every little part of the match, including rehearsal, or is it that they just talk about the highspots and ending? Or does it vary person to person? I've read DDP and Scott Hall like to map things out, Page to an exacting degree.
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Jan 14, 2021 20:28
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Red posted:I've always been curious about this. Do they write down and plan every little part of the match, including rehearsal, or is it that they just talk about the highspots and ending? Or does it vary person to person? I've read DDP and Scott Hall like to map things out, Page to an exacting degree. Depends on the guy. Some can call it in the ring, and build around ideas they want to do, like Ricky Steamboat. Some have to be meticulous like DDP or Randy Savage.
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Jan 14, 2021 20:30
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Decades posted:This kind of thing makes sense to me - these kinds of brief superhero style clashes tend to be mostly high spots anyway so I'd figure they'd be neatly laid out. The mind boggling thing is stuff like the G1. Not only do guys have like 10 twenty minute long matches with unique opponents over just a couple weeks, but they also tend to end up some of the best matches of the year. I'm pretty curious how much planning goes into those. Do they still fit in wwe-style rehearsal? Or does Ibushi just go up to Taichi one afternoon like "So I'm thinking tonight we just kick each other in the legs, cool?" I'd love to sit in and observe a planning session between Suzuki and Yano going into a G1 match.
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Jan 14, 2021 20:34
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Spuckuk posted:This is a very big list of suggested matches for everything up to and including some of 2018. Anything in gold is, well, gold Wow, this is quite something, thanks! (and everyone else)
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Jan 14, 2021 21:44
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Depends on the guy. Some can call it in the ring, and build around ideas they want to do, like Ricky Steamboat. Some have to be meticulous like DDP or Randy Savage. It can even depend on the pairing. Take it with a pinch of salt, obviously, but in one of those lovely Buzzfeed style vids, CM Punk claimed he felt he could step into the ring with Rey Mysterio and work the entire match basically silent.
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Jan 14, 2021 21:51
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back in the "call it in the ring era," wwf guys worked the same person >100 nights a year
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Jan 14, 2021 21:55
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Royal Updog posted:back in the "call it in the ring era," wwf guys worked the same person >100 nights a year Yeah, this is a great point and true across a lot of wrestling. Flair and Steamboat had, supposedly, hundreds of house show matches before their famous series in 1989. Guys had a chance to work each other a lot and that probably evens out the difficulty of calling it in the ring. The "Road To..." tags on NJPW shows seem to serve a similar function now. Guys have a chance to get in there together, works a few spots, get a feel for what crowds like or don't like before their big singles match at the end of the tour.
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Jan 14, 2021 22:13
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Gaz-L posted:It can even depend on the pairing. Take it with a pinch of salt, obviously, but in one of those lovely Buzzfeed style vids, CM Punk claimed he felt he could step into the ring with Rey Mysterio and work the entire match basically silent. It's incredibly mystifying why Shawn and Hennig couldn't have a great match, but they made everyone else look like a million dollars.
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Jan 14, 2021 22:24
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Halloween Jack posted:Didn't Pat Patterson plan out the Warrior/Hogan match to get the most out of it? Warrior is another one who probably benefited greatly from other people planning out his matches step-by-step for him. This has to be why he had at least three PPV matches with Rick Rude; I remember their Wrestlemania match being sloppy, but the other two being surprisingly decent as far as Warrior matches go.
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Jan 14, 2021 22:53
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Red posted:It's incredibly mystifying why Shawn and Hennig couldn't have a great match, but they made everyone else look like a million dollars. Both are guys who specialize in using their athleticism to make the other guy look like a machine. But neither had great offence. With Perfect, he has a nice dropkick, the neck snap thingy, the Perfect plex, and that's basically it. With HBK, he's got some nice high flying stuff but I find his finish often looked like poo poo (I wanted his finish to be his top rope elbow or his Piledriver which he stopped doing), and HBK's strength was always being great at taking an asskicking.
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Jan 14, 2021 23:18
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One the subject of meticulously planned out matches, William Regal was on Steve Austin's podcast a few years ago and they were discussing Steamboat/Savage and how much they enjoyed it until they both either realised or found out something that put them off the match. They wouldn't say what it was and implied it wasn't something that happened in the match itself. Does anybody remember this or have any idea what they were talking about?
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Jan 14, 2021 23:22
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Breitbart Is Rightbart posted:One the subject of meticulously planned out matches, William Regal was on Steve Austin's podcast a few years ago and they were discussing Steamboat/Savage and how much they enjoyed it until they both either realised or found out something that put them off the match. They wouldn't say what it was and implied it wasn't something that happened in the match itself. Does anybody remember this or have any idea what they were talking about? It's almost certainly the fact that it was meticulously choreographed and Steamboat didn't love it because of that. Austin and Regal are big "call it in the ring" guys. I remember Regal being proud of the fact that he and Psicosis were thrown into a match against each other with no warning and literally never spoke until they locked up in the ring on live tv.
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Jan 14, 2021 23:46
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Hedgehog Pie posted:Warrior is another one who probably benefited greatly from other people planning out his matches step-by-step for him. This has to be why he had at least three PPV matches with Rick Rude; I remember their Wrestlemania match being sloppy, but the other two being surprisingly decent as far as Warrior matches go. Makes sense why Macho Man was able to give Warrior the best match of his career.
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Jan 15, 2021 00:18
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Big Bidness posted:I remember Regal being proud of the fact that he and Psicosis were thrown into a match against each other with no warning and literally never spoke until they locked up in the ring on live tv. I guess that explains why he and Finlay (whom he's had a bajillion matches with over the years) were able to put on a really solid, hidden gem of a match at GAB '06.
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Jan 15, 2021 00:26
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Big Bidness posted:It's almost certainly the fact that it was meticulously choreographed and Steamboat didn't love it because of that. Austin and Regal are big "call it in the ring" guys. I remember Regal being proud of the fact that he and Psicosis were thrown into a match against each other with no warning and literally never spoke until they locked up in the ring on live tv. I'm now remembering a blurb in either Flair's book or Foley's book (I imagine Flair's because I don't remember Foley having blurbs) about how he always had to call the matches because he 'couldn't hear too good'.
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Jan 15, 2021 01:16
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I feel like you can be a good wrestler who does the "actor" route (plan it out and follow the script) but the ability to go the "improv" route of calling it in the ring is so valuable to a wrestler's development imho and if WWE developmental isn't teaching that skill, it explains a lot
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Jan 15, 2021 03:00
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ChrisBTY posted:I'm now remembering a blurb in either Flair's book or Foley's book (I imagine Flair's because I don't remember Foley having blurbs) about how he always had to call the matches because he 'couldn't hear too good'. Pretty sure it wasn't Flair's. Speaking of, Black Scorpion vs. Sting at Starrcade 1990 suffers from a related issue. Flair tried to an extent to hide it was him under the hood, so he was avoiding his regular spots and moves. But it doesn't seem like he and Sting discussed much beyond a spot or two and the finish because you can almost visibly see the wheels turning in Flair's head as he tries to figure out what he can do next. The match bogs down badly because of it.
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Jan 15, 2021 04:43
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ChrisBTY posted:I'm now remembering a blurb in either Flair's book or Foley's book (I imagine Flair's because I don't remember Foley having blurbs) about how he always had to call the matches because he 'couldn't hear too good'. That might have been Austin that said he didn't hear so good. I can't find the particular clip but I remember him mentioning not being able to hear guys a few times and usually called the match.
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Jan 15, 2021 05:26
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I remember from some interview somewhere that Omega talked over the match layout for his dome match with Okada with the Bucks, and their reaction was "holy poo poo, that's the match of the year". I doubt it was move by move for 48 minutes, but if we've learned anything it's that Omega puts an absolutely extraordinary amount of detail into everything. I think it would be fascinating to see whatever his notes were. And at what point Okada decided that taking that dragon suplex was a good idea because that still bothers me years later.
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Jan 15, 2021 05:43
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Lamuella posted:Britwres Omg, I checked out clips of all the promotions you recommended via YouTube, and my favourite is definitely Riptide! The steady shots and clear lighting give it such a different, professional feel and I love it. Like NJPW, they found out that low camera angles make moves look even better, but deciding to add have cameras with stabilisers and tracking shots makes them so much better! Thank you so much!
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Jan 15, 2021 12:48
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AlmightyPants posted:I remember from some interview somewhere that Omega talked over the match layout for his dome match with Okada with the Bucks, and their reaction was "holy poo poo, that's the match of the year". I doubt it was move by move for 48 minutes, but if we've learned anything it's that Omega puts an absolutely extraordinary amount of detail into everything. I think it would be fascinating to see whatever his notes were. And at what point Okada decided that taking that dragon suplex was a good idea because that still bothers me years later. I've just watched this, and yeah, the one of the English commentators (can't remember who specifically) say right at the start that the Bucks came over to the booth and said something to the effect of "you're in for a treat here", with the implication that they've seen how the match has been laid out.
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Jan 15, 2021 14:17
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Answers Me posted:I've just watched this, and yeah, the one of the English commentators (can't remember who specifically) say right at the start that the Bucks came over to the booth and said something to the effect of "you're in for a treat here", with the implication that they've seen how the match has been laid out. It's also easy to have a kayfabe explanation for it because of course Kenny vs Kazu is going to be a treat to watch.
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Jan 15, 2021 15:11
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