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Also total innocents. Also fellow eldians. That's not what they wanted (just saw that link) but I still prefer what was used. DamnGlitch fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 05:53
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I do like the idea of playing a "the titans are attacking and eating everyone" theme at the same time that eren kills all these innocent people in titan form
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Jan 14, 2021 06:02
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Asuron posted:Actually this is the track people wanted. The events leading to the reiner/bert betrayal carry a significantly different tone than the events leading up to Eren's current offensive. That song hitting when it did was a perfect summary of the grueling losses, confusion, stress and depression up to that point. Using it as a reflection of Reiner's emotional condition doesn't even come close. I'm fine with what we got. It's not as epic but it doesn't have to be because it's a different moment with a different feel and it's only just started.
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Jan 14, 2021 06:12
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The music fits the best for a moment where Eren is inflicting the same kind of pain and horror he experienced in the first episode. The writing points out that things have come full circle.
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Jan 14, 2021 09:47
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It's strange that people want more epic music when it's a scene where Eren goes full mask off and kills hundreds of innocent people. But maybe the fanbase wants that which is uhhh... 
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Jan 14, 2021 12:25
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Freakazoid_ posted:The events leading to the reiner/bert betrayal carry a significantly different tone than the events leading up to Eren's current offensive. That song hitting when it did was a perfect summary of the grueling losses, confusion, stress and depression up to that point. See I'm totally fine with the track they chose, but I don't agree with this argument against using YOUSEEBIGGIRL. The basement talk isn't just about showing Reiner's grief and guilt. There is this deep underlying sadness and weariness to Eren, he is completely committed to the action he's about to take and he even says he feels it was inevitable that they would both end up at this point. It's written all over his face, the rage is gone, it's almost like he's given up on hope. The YOUSEEBIGGIRL track works really well with that tone, it captures both Eren and Reiner's feelings and then climaxes as he explodes out onto the stage and really gives this palpable feeling of despair as you wonder what he's going to do next, what other terrible thing he could possibly do to make the situation worse. It's not an epic score, it's meant to be used for tragic moments like this and I can definitely see the argument for using it. I think 2Volt was used fantastically though, even though I don't think it would have been my first choice for the scene. Now on the other hand, anyone arguing for bombastic or actiony music in this scene just flatout doesn't get the what the show is doing or is trying to do.
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Jan 14, 2021 14:09
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Vanderdeath posted:It's strange that people want more epic music when it's a scene where Eren goes full mask off and kills hundreds of innocent people. But maybe the fanbase wants that which is uhhh... "Oops, all KernigChameleons!"
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Jan 14, 2021 14:13
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This is a similar problem that is shared with satirical shows and media or even black comedies. Having a hero do something morally wrong, you've been in their corner so long you sympathise with it, even if the authors intent is clearly intended to show "this is bad, actually." People want the bad rear end song because they expect it to be portrayed as bad rear end and epic. I can't help think of breaking bad, with Walter White's descent from morally grey to "not thats just bad" and people were still cheering him on as heroic till the end. It's a sign of good writing but also just how some people absorb media. Eren's philosophy is "destroy my enemies by any means possible" and is a common trope. That philosophy MAKES SENSE when the enemies are giant naked zombies and not human kind. His character is so loving genius because it literally explores the limits of this idea. It's always been this way, and was highlighted fairly early by the sociopathic scene of him killing obviously bad people to save Mikasa.
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Jan 14, 2021 14:39
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I'm not sure about that. There were a lot of reasons to expect Eren to arrive as a "villain" in this season, and the obvious way to do it would be to have him still frothing with a blind rage against the titans - clearly crazy and in the wrong. But that really isn't what we got in episode 5. Like Reiner he realized that the people inside and outside the wall are different but not in any way better or worse than each other. But he will still do what he feels he has to do to protect his home from a nation that has stated their intention to destroy it. I don't think that Eren or Reiner are "wrong", exactly. Or at least I don't think you can meaningfully place the blame for this conflict on either of them. To me the only thing that I can really blame directly for the carnage that's about to unfold is Marley's systematic mistreatment of Eldians. The founding titan was taken by Grisha because he wanted to use it to stop the terrible injustices being committed against the Eldians outside the walls. Reiner invaded Shiganshina because of the lies he was told about his own people and his desperation to escape persecution, and in doing so he inadvertently created exactly the monster he was afraid of. And the only way to prevent this kind of conflict based on mutual fear from breaking out is through mutual dialogue and diplomacy, which did not happen due to how much the Eldians are hated. Episodes 4 and 5 were very good Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 15:11
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Right? It's hosed up that Eren murdered civilians and assassinated (is assassinating?) major world leaders, but also was acting to protect paradis which was about to be invaded by the entire world. The writing on this show is so good. No action or motivation is simple.
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Jan 14, 2021 15:30
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I'm not sure about that. There were a lot of reasons to expect Eren to arrive as a "villain" in this season, and the obvious way to do it would be to have him still frothing with a blind rage against the titans - clearly crazy and in the wrong. But that really isn't what we got in episode 5. Like Reiner he realized that the people inside and outside the wall are different but not in any way better or worse than each other. But he will still do what he feels he has to do to protect his home from a nation that has stated their intention to destroy it.
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Jan 14, 2021 15:53
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He can still channel that fire, but Eren's attitude changed since the Reiss cavern (and hearing Shadis' story). This is very well exemplified when, before the mission to retake Wall Maria, Historia asks what will happen if he meets Berthold and Reiner again, and Eren answers he has to kill them. She then asks if that's what he wants, and after a moment's hesitation he almost fatalistically just repeats he has to kill them.
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Jan 14, 2021 19:09
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Right. Eren has to do this. He's resigned to it. He's not enjoying it. He doesn't hate titans any more. But this is his fate. What can he do? The entire world just declared they'd wipe his home from the face of the planet.
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Jan 14, 2021 20:20
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Conspiratiorist posted:He can still channel that fire, but Eren's attitude changed since the Reiss cavern (and hearing Shadis' story). This is very well exemplified when, before the mission to retake Wall Maria, Historia asks what will happen if he meets Berthold and Reiner again, and Eren answers he has to kill them. She then asks if that's what he wants, and after a moment's hesitation he almost fatalistically just repeats he has to kill them. Seems like everyone turns into a nihilist in this harsh universe. And who can blame them. I am reminded of Bertholds "You did not do anything wrong but you must still die, that is just the kind of cruel world this is", when he had his "epiphany". (Of course, a Berthold which isnt a shivering mess of self doubt was, as we saw, too overpowered, so he got killed off 3 minutes later) Ironically, it seems Reiner still is one of the more innocent ones in his world view, since he seems to feel guilty for what he did. Doesnt seem like Eren has any capacity to feel like that at all. Even Ice queen Annie seemed less jaded. Eren was right... he really is the villain right now.
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Jan 14, 2021 21:05
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Eren isn't the villain. His choices are: die along with all his family, or fight back. He's fighting back.
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Jan 14, 2021 23:33
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He's as much of a villain as the colossal titan was
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Jan 14, 2021 23:49
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Exactly
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Jan 14, 2021 23:58
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ninjewtsu posted:He's as much of a villain as the colossal titan was This makes me think of Bertholdt's speech in S3E15 again.
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Jan 15, 2021 01:14
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This show is the best. If you'd told me I'd ever sympathize with Reiner and Berdholt I'd look you right in the eye (I've never been afraid to hold a man's gaze, it's natural) I'd call you a stupid SOD. But drat.
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Jan 15, 2021 01:29
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Alan_Shore posted:Right. Eren has to do this. He's resigned to it. He's not enjoying it. He doesn't hate titans any more. But this is his fate. What can he do? The entire world just declared they'd wipe his home from the face of the planet. Though when Reiner breaks down and denies Eren's assertions, revealing that it wasn't their circumstances but rather his own selfish desire which ultimately ended up pushing them forward to continue the mission, Eren merely reaffirms "we are the same".
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Jan 15, 2021 01:32
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Maybe that means Eren was the one who pushed for the attack on Paradis? e: I mean Marley, of course Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Jan 15, 2021 |
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Jan 15, 2021 02:01
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Maybe that means Eren was the one who pushed for the attack on Paradis? That's my guess, but I absolutely wouldn't be surprised if another member of the Scouts "logic'd" everyone into accepting this was the only possible outcome for survival. Especially since we don't know how much intel they got from the ships they neutralized. Man, I forgot that Reiner's first instinct was to protect Falco. I really wonder if he has any fight left in him after everything.
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Jan 15, 2021 02:19
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Alan_Shore posted:Eren isn't the villain. His choices are: die along with all his family, or fight back. He's fighting back. Not from our perspective of course. But from the perspective of those innocent families in the house above, he sure is. Which is what he is acknowledging, I am sure. If we want to take some kind of semi realistic approach, I am pretty sure that he could have gone outside the house before he transformed. No one knew he was there, and it takes just a few seconds while outside. Would Reiner and Falco try to stop him? If they did, he could easily just transform then and there. But I doubt they would even try, Reiner is mentally destroyed just seconds earlier and Falco is just a kid. No there must be a reason he wanted to transform while under the house. Pretty sure that reason is to show the viewers (us) just how little he cares for anything anymore, even innocents, and how totally broken he is morally. He really crossed a line here, dare I say way worse than Reiner, Annie and Bert did during the first wall breach, since they were just kids at the time with almost no real info at all. Eren is what, 19? And knows at least as much as we do, and he still did it, seemingly unnecessarily. I have no problem calling him an in-story villain at this time after this, certainly from the perspective of our new season 3 cast. That boy aint right. Loving every minute of this show right now. Tapet fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jan 15, 2021 |
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Jan 15, 2021 19:57
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Thundercracker posted:Man, I forgot that Reiner's first instinct was to protect Falco. I really wonder if he has any fight left in him after everything. Dare I say Reiner is at this point in the story a way better person than Eren. Hes feeling extremely gulty for what he did in Paradis, he has developed a split personality becuse of said guilt, and I am pretty sure he would gladly die to protect the kids, not just Falco. Eren on the other hand, seem to be little more than a unfeeling machine fulfilling a purpose. When Eren said "If we kill them all, will we finally be free?", it seems like he wasnt just shocked, he has totally given up on his humanity to achieve that goal. Kind of like Ozymandias from watchmen. Objectively, he may well be right, If you just count the number of casualties. He may well be a savoir in the long run, we will see. But will it be worth the price? Was it for those unsuspecting families in the house above? This is storytelling I can get behind.
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Jan 15, 2021 20:08
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Tapet posted:Not from our perspective of course. But from the perspective of those innocent families in the house above, he sure is. Which is what he is acknowledging, I am sure. You can see soldiers going down to the basement they're in so Eren wouldn't have been able to go outside. What he probably could have done was not brought Reiner down there to have a talk before he transforms, which likely would have let him remain unnoticed and he may have been able to transform in a safe area. Civilian casualties are unavoidable after he transforms, but if he didn't confront Reiner he might have minimised it. But then again, the talk did essentially 'contain' Reiner so that they didn't need to trap him like the others. Reiner would be able to ruin the plan if he was loose and recognised someone from Paradis, plus being so close to Eren transforming may incapacitate him for a good while. So who knows. And tbh, the Marleans did suspect Eren would attack and purposefully held the talks in the Eldian district next to a bunch of residential buildings. Which I doubt is a coincidence. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Jan 15, 2021 |
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Jan 15, 2021 20:36
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When it comes to why Eren confronted and talked to Reiner, I think back to the first scene of the episode. "Why did he tell us that story right before he hung himself?"
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Jan 15, 2021 20:54
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Bringing Reiner down into that basement served a dual purpose of letting Eren finally have a conversation with him (for closure?), while as mentioned containing and possibly outright disabling the Armored Titan for the upcoming strike. Now, it's not like he knew how things would go down if he directly confronted Reiner so it was certainly a horrific gamble either way, but I think it mischaracterizes Eren to think he'd callously put those additional lives in jeopardy for no practical purpose.
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Jan 15, 2021 22:32
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I think the point was that his goal here is to kill everyone there so minimizing civilian casualties just doesn't really matter. Maybe if he had gone about it in a different way those specific innocents maybe could have survived but I'm guessing next episode is going to involve turning an awful lot of the district into rubble. It'd be like asking "why did the colossal titan kick down the wall gate and crush some poor people under debris instead of politely picking it up for all the titans to enter paradis?"
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Jan 15, 2021 23:48
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Eren called Reiner into that basement because he knew Reiner wouldn't transform because of the Eldians above. It had to be a basement in the residential area. It had to be near the stage. They had to neutralize Reiner. The big point here is that Paradis, and more importantly Eren, are willing to kill the innocents. But are they innocent? Those Eldians send their children to the Marley army in the hope that they'll be chosen to become a titan, a titan that will hopefully wipe out Paradis, so that they can make their own selfish lives better. From Eren's point of view he's probably sick of their lack of fight, of their kowtowing to the Marleyans, and blames them in part for this whole mess. Well, it's certainly possible he feels this way. His dad was a hero, why can't everyone else try? And it could have been worse. They could have had Armin do it instead. They didn't use the nuclear option. Why? I just wonder now if they know about the war hammer titan. Is that something they're prepared for?
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Jan 16, 2021 13:11
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Alan_Shore posted:I just wonder now if they know about the war hammer titan. Is that something they're prepared for? the last thing we saw is Eren plucking the most likely person to be holding that titan into the air and throwing him towards his mouth like popcorn so yeah. Magic power-granting popcorn.
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Jan 17, 2021 12:05
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It's crazy how this show makes me go from questioning the moral ambiguity of our heroes to shouting "gently caress yeah" in the blink of an eye.
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Jan 17, 2021 22:22
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The direction of this one seemed weaker than the last few, but I think that's more a mark of how good they've been so far. No particular theories, but these things were surprises for pacing reasons: - The carriage ride with Willy and Magath. I caught one piece of new information (that they were going to take the opportunity to clean house in the military), but otherwise it just confirmed things that could be put together from the last episode. - The War Hammer Titan's identity was revealed. I think that kills some tension, but I'm not the one writing the story. - Both Zophia and Udo were killed. I assumed they would kill one and hold the second death in reserve for another moment. - Levi! I didn't think they would pull him out this quickly, but it makes sense for him to make an appearance during the assault on Liberio. I have assorted tactical theories that might play out next episode, but I don't want to get dinged for my posting so I'll refrain.
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Jan 17, 2021 22:35
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A lot of Cylce of Violence vibes from this episode
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Jan 17, 2021 22:40
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Oh poo poo Eren is being tactical and level headed.
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Jan 17, 2021 23:03
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Going back to Willy and Magath's scene in Episode 63:quote:"Oh? A large-scale demolition is required?" (while reading the notebook handed by Magath) Willy essentially offered Magath leadership of and chance to restructure the Marleyan Military, and what the latter delivered was presumably a list of officers (incompetent or otherwise problematic) that would need be removed to make this happen. His later comment, about the pillars and the rats, then referred to officers Magath trusted warning him that Marley had likely already been infiltrated by Paradis and their would-be allies among Marley's many enemies.
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Jan 17, 2021 23:13
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I really liked all the plot and character stuff this episode but I think this episode cemented for me that I do not like the increased 3d. It's really immersion breaking in a show that relies on immersion and tension and it frankly just does not look as good as the drawn scenes from this and previous seasons. Also wow, even Magath was more concerned over the Eldian's than Willy. That dude really went hard on the self-hatred. Considering how little time we've known them, both of them are really interesting characters imo.
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Jan 18, 2021 00:34
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Nephthys posted:Also wow, even Magath was more concerned over the Eldian's than Willy. That dude really went hard on the self-hatred. Considering how little time we've known them, both of them are really interesting characters imo. Willy was being disingenuous - "Come on, they're just Eldians, aren't they? Isn't sending them to their deaths what you've been doing for years?" he says as he knowingly marches towards his own death to try and save them by scapegoating Paradis.
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Jan 18, 2021 00:43
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Nephthys posted:I really liked all the plot and character stuff this episode but I think this episode cemented for me that I do not like the increased 3d. It's really immersion breaking in a show that relies on immersion and tension and it frankly just does not look as good as the drawn scenes from this and previous seasons. I'm not sure that's quite... hmn. I agree he's self-loathing, but notice how he puts "improving the reputation of Eldians" as one of his top priorities from his years of work. He also has a bunch of kids, which is more than a little hypocritical if his goal is the extinction of his people. He's putting this in the ghetto to make the hated Eldians of Liberio into sanctified martyrs. Which requires a certain willingness to kill them. Magath is being called on to be a bastard, with Tybur bringing up the things he's done in the past as a way to confirm he's going to do this and not blink.
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Jan 18, 2021 00:48
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Willy is sacrificing his life for this, and is relying on Magath to carry on with their plan after he's gone. He can't afford him to have second thoughts, and simultaneously he's working himself up to go through with it as well.
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Jan 18, 2021 01:01
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Nephthys posted:I really liked all the plot and character stuff this episode but I think this episode cemented for me that I do not like the increased 3d. It's really immersion breaking in a show that relies on immersion and tension and it frankly just does not look as good as the drawn scenes from this and previous seasons. The 3D in it was actually great except for the titans, but thats because when CG is used in anime correctly you dont notice it. Still a great episode, and I think the art really good. The Titans were just a bit, stiff. The first time we saw the CGI with the armor titant they nailed it so Im not super worried for the rest of the series.
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Jan 18, 2021 01:07
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