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Lobok posted:Oh that golden suit was from the comics? Gotta hand in my BSS Movie Thread membership card I guess. You have never read Kingdom Come?
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Jan 19, 2021 01:44
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Lobok posted:Oh that golden suit was from the comics? Gotta hand in my BSS Movie Thread membership card I guess. It’s from Kingdom Come; in the grim future, Wonder Woman puts aside her lasso and bracelets and takes up a sword and armor to represent her putting aside the trappings of superheroics and dedicating herself to war. In WW84, it’s just kind of a weird thing PS you should read Kingdom Come, it’s great.
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Jan 19, 2021 01:58
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Mr Hootington posted:You have never read Kingdom Come? I have not. Haven't read many of the big DC events, really.
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Jan 19, 2021 02:10
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Not sure I'd call Kingdom Come an "event" given it's entirely self-contained and had no contemporary tie-ins (and you never have to read any of the ones that were published afterword!). Anyway, it's very good and you should read it.
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Jan 19, 2021 02:13
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Arist posted:I feel like the MCU doesn't often stop the plot so brazenly for things that only comic readers will understand or care about. The WW bit was particularly egregious in that regard, yes. But to be entirely honest, that was the least of the films problems. Old Kentucky Shark posted:It’s from Kingdom Come; in the grim future, Wonder Woman puts aside her lasso and bracelets and takes up a sword and armor to represent her putting aside the trappings of superheroics and dedicating herself to war. In WW84, it’s just kind of a weird thing KC is in one of those weird spots in that it's both entirely non-canonical and also somehow character defining, kinda like Red Son, or All-Star Superman. Well worth a read.
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Jan 19, 2021 02:14
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Lobok posted:I have not. Haven't read many of the big DC events, really. It was an Elseworlds miniseries rather than a big event. I actually didn't love it as much as most others, but it's interesting and has some excellent moments.
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Jan 19, 2021 02:14
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I'm waiting for that DC comics subscription to become available in Canada later this year and then I can go to town. I've read my fair share of Superman, Batman, GL, and Flash over the years but yeah, not a lot of their big/event/crossover/famous miniseries comics.
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Jan 19, 2021 02:19
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All-Star Superman is the only canon Superman book imho. Kingdom Come is just fine.
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Jan 19, 2021 02:21
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Kingdom come really stuck with me I guess because I totally forgot that's where that armor came from
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Jan 19, 2021 03:04
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Big Mean Jerk posted:All-Star Superman is the only canon Superman book imho. Kingdom Come is just fine. You can take Secret Identity from my cold dead hands,.
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Jan 19, 2021 03:05
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ImpAtom posted:You can take Secret Identity from my cold dead hands,. I forgot about SI, and I hereby deem it Also Canon. Along with all the original Siegel/Shuster issues of course.
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Jan 19, 2021 03:12
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The armour has cropped up a bunch since Kingdom Come as well. Simone's WW run had all 3 Wonder ladies with one, Donna's was silver, and Cassie's was bronze, which... I get what they were aiming for but I'm not sure the latter doesn't come off as a backhanded compliment. And the invisible plane is one of those things they kind of have to do in some way apparently because drat near everything has it. I actually liked the bit in Rucka's first run where she was on a book tour and deflects a question about it at Q&A and then grumbles to her assistant like "If I never get another question about the plane, it'll be too soon".
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Jan 19, 2021 03:16
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Gaz-L posted:The armour has cropped up a bunch since Kingdom Come as well. Simone's WW run had all 3 Wonder ladies with one, Donna's was silver, and Cassie's was bronze, which... I get what they were aiming for but I'm not sure the latter doesn't come off as a backhanded compliment. That's hilarious though
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Jan 19, 2021 03:24
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Lobok posted:I'm waiting for that DC comics subscription to become available in Canada later this year and then I can go to town. I've read my fair share of Superman, Batman, GL, and Flash over the years but yeah, not a lot of their big/event/crossover/famous miniseries comics. Yeah that should be one of your first reads. Kingdom Come is a top 10 DC story.
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Jan 19, 2021 03:30
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Lobok posted:I'm waiting for that DC comics subscription to become available in Canada later this year and then I can go to town. I've read my fair share of Superman, Batman, GL, and Flash over the years but yeah, not a lot of their big/event/crossover/famous miniseries comics. Just get the local library to bring it in. I pretty much exclusively read comics I can get from the library these days.
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Jan 19, 2021 05:45
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I think my Big Issue with Kingdom Come is it’s, one, an Elseworlds story that DC has tried to make “canon” in the grand tradition of TKJ, rear end, et al, sort of destroying the concept of having explicitly non-canon storytelling in the first place, combined with DC going “man it sure does suck that all comics are full of these amoral antiheroes” when DC spent all of its loving time in the past like forty years creating a universe focused almost exclusively on amoral antiheroes and “darkening” their heroes. It would be like if the DCEU came out with a movie that was essentially one long complaint about how nobody can be just good and superhero flicks just can’t be fun and forgettable dross and every superhero movie has to be dark and grey and self-serious. DC loving loves to have their cake and eat it too.
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Jan 19, 2021 05:59
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Because if there's something missing it's superhero movies that are fun and forgettable
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Jan 19, 2021 06:24
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NieR Occomata posted:I think my Big Issue with Kingdom Come is it’s, one, an Elseworlds story that DC has tried to make “canon” in the grand tradition of TKJ, rear end, et al, sort of destroying the concept of having explicitly non-canon storytelling in the first place, combined with DC going “man it sure does suck that all comics are full of these amoral antiheroes” when DC spent all of its loving time in the past like forty years creating a universe focused almost exclusively on amoral antiheroes and “darkening” their heroes. It would be like if the DCEU came out with a movie that was essentially one long complaint about how nobody can be just good and superhero flicks just can’t be fun and forgettable dross and every superhero movie has to be dark and grey and self-serious. “DC” doesn’t write comics. Mark Waid was complaining about the state of comics.
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Jan 19, 2021 06:29
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McCloud posted:It's simple. It's MCU style hollow fanservice. "Look, see? It's that Iconic thing from Kingdom Come! Isn't that cool, huh"? It's the same reason they shoehorned an invisible jet into the film. It doesn't make any sense except to be there as dumb easter eggs. I guess the closest thing to this is in Thor Ragnarok to Infinity War. Thor's hammer is destroyed, he realizes he's still strong without it if not stronger, oops he gets worked by a loving Alien God, time to craft a god-killing axe. Like, you can say that Thor's story in Infinity War being focused around the crafting of a new weapon basically undoes some of his character development from Ragnarok, but it makes more sense than Wonder Woman 84! He got fuckin worked by Thanos at the start of IW and then the weapon beats Thanos at the end of the movie.
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Jan 19, 2021 06:30
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I've said it before, I think the least self-aware thing that DC Comics has ever done* was to take Magog and face-value unironically try to present him as a bona fide hero. *until I'm reminded of something else they've done that's even less self-aware
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Jan 19, 2021 06:32
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BrianWilly posted:I've said it before, I think the least self-aware thing that DC Comics has ever done* was to take Magog and face-value unironically try to present him as a bona fide hero. I'd say "using the Watchmen characters in the main universe" is up there but that's basically the same thing. Honestly 90% of attempts to bring things from an Elseworld into continuity end up sucking because those things are interesting within the context of the original story and once you take them out of that they lose a lot of their value. (See also: Sugarman/Dark Beast or Old Man Logan from the Marvel side.) Elseworlds are good because they are their own self contained stories with beginnings, middles and ends. Trying to make them drag on forever just devalues them.
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Jan 19, 2021 06:57
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AngryBooch posted:I guess the closest thing to this is in Thor Ragnarok to Infinity War. Thor's hammer is destroyed, he realizes he's still strong without it if not stronger, oops he gets worked by a loving Alien God, time to craft a god-killing axe. WW was more pointless by a significant factor, that's true, but tbh I'd kinda forgotten about how badly they walked back Thor's story in IW. Like,the golden armor was terribly fan servicy in a way the hammer thing wasn't, but at least it didn't entirely undo her arc from her previous movie.
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Jan 19, 2021 07:05
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Aphrodite posted:“DC” doesn’t write comics. Don’t be pedantic. You know just as well as I do, from Identity to Infinite to Final Crisis, to more recent stuff like Doomsday Clock, to the actual words actually spoken by the guy who blueprinted modern DC for the pst twenty years and had a major hand in influencing their movie development, that DC’s stated mantra for the comics side has been “it sure does suck that all these comics just can’t be about heroes being heroic, now let’s have them murder and/or rape a bunch of people because it’s mature and real.” Kingdom Come gets a pass both for being kind of the first time DC would as a company try this particularly tired line of thinking and also being a direct influence on a pretty kickass Jay-Z album, but to pretend like DC hasn’t enthusiastically endorsed this line of thinking is disingenuous at best. If you want to see a comic veteran meditate on his opinions on the state of the comic book industry in an explicitly non-canon story, drawn by Alex Ross, well, Astro City is always right there. I’m not trying to say that Kingdom Come is bad per se, because it isn’t, but it suffers the same issues that a lot of DC’s best works that are not explicitly canon suffer, where DC as a company has ruined its generational legacy by exploiting the living gently caress out of it subsequently.
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Jan 19, 2021 07:12
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NieR Occomata posted:Don’t be pedantic. You know just as well as I do, from Identity to Infinite to Final Crisis, to more recent stuff like Doomsday Clock, to the actual words actually spoken by the guy who blueprinted modern DC for the pst twenty years and had a major hand in influencing their movie development, that DC’s stated mantra for the comics side has been “it sure does suck that all these comics just can’t be about heroes being heroic, now let’s have them murder and/or rape a bunch of people because it’s mature and real.” Kingdom Come gets a pass both for being kind of the first time DC would as a company try this particularly tired line of thinking and also being a direct influence on a pretty kickass Jay-Z album, but to pretend like DC hasn’t enthusiastically endorsed this line of thinking is disingenuous at best. Yikes, this is kinda hyperbolic There's been plenty of "heroes are heroic" stuff coming from DC, even in the Batman stuff, which is typically the grimmest of the lot McCloud fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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Jan 19, 2021 07:19
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Citing Final Crisis in that list is so funny.
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Jan 19, 2021 07:34
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Shirkelton posted:Citing Final Crisis in that list is so funny. Yeah, it was supposed to put an end to all the grimdark stuff. DC would have been better to follow its lead instead of go right back to what Final Crisis was trying to get rid of.
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Jan 19, 2021 08:10
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Even the latest event, the super grim dark deathest metal night or w/e it's called, is purposefully exaggerated in a "death metal album" camp kind of way, and the ultimate message there was that the heroes extreme and unyielding goodness in the face of the unrelenting grimness is the saving grace of comic books. Hell, citing Kingdom come here is so hilariously missing the point because that story is specifically about the heroes finding the humanity they lost in the 90's era Liefeldian grimdarkness and with it a hope for a more optimistic future. It's a direct repudiation of the stuff he claims to hate! For fucks sake, Final Crisis ends with Superman finally destroying the platonic embodiment of evil by SINGING TO IT! Just pretend i posted that clip of an increasingly exasperated Apu screaming "What were you thinking?!"
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Jan 19, 2021 10:55
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Also this angsty dark phase, such as it was, was not just relegated to DC like Nier likes to pretend. Marvel had like constant huge crossover events that were all about heroes beating the poo poo our of each other for various reasons, also at least two were the villains were pretending to be heroes, a huge chunk of stories somehow relate to a literal illuminati of heroes being manipulative assholes, and they turned Captain America into a nazi. Prescient, in retrospect, but still. In conclusion: McCloud posted:Just pretend i posted that clip of an increasingly exasperated Apu screaming "What were you thinking?!"
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Jan 19, 2021 11:39
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NieR Occomata posted:If you want to see a comic veteran meditate on his opinions on the state of the comic book industry in an explicitly non-canon story, drawn by Alex Ross, well, Astro City is always right there.
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Jan 19, 2021 15:22
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McCloud posted:WW was more pointless by a significant factor, that's true, but tbh I'd kinda forgotten about how badly they walked back Thor's story in IW. Like,the golden armor was terribly fan servicy in a way the hammer thing wasn't, but at least it didn't entirely undo her arc from her previous movie. I disagree that it walks it back in Thor. He goes through this poo poo in Ragnarok, then immediately gets his rear end kicked, ship destroyed, brother killed, and regresses. He then goes and does all his hammer poo poo, and here's the important part: his fancy new hammer doesn't work. Because he was wrong and the hammer doesn't matter anyway. But the loss is so bad it makes him think not only is he nothing without the hammer, he's nothing with it, leading to him in End Game, where he is brought back around to what's his real source of strength: himself and his friends. Most personal growth isn't clean, and his being a bit messy with back slides and such works for me and makes sense.
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Jan 19, 2021 15:57
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Yeah, it's the same as with Tony. He doesn't have a clean, linear character arc. It's full of false starts, regression, and stumbling blocks. It may have started with conflicting story mandates or what have you, but by the end of his story it makes for a much more compelling, fleshed out character than if he'd just gone through a straightforward progression. The opposite of Thor and Tony is Steve, who doesn't even have a character arc, really. And it still works great. Steve is a guy who entirely knows what he's about from beginning to end, but it's the world that changes around him, so he's constantly having to either find his place in it or reject its design for him.
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Jan 19, 2021 16:02
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Stormbreaker works great. Thor just aims badly. Then it chops Thanos' head off.
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Jan 19, 2021 16:20
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Well, the entire story of Infinity War, theoretically, is the disunited Avengers being forced to make sacrifices and compromises that amount to nothing in the end. Star-Lord tries to kill Gamora at her request but it doesn't work, Cap tells Vision they don't trade lives but ends up giving in and telling Wanda to destroy the Mind Stone, and Thor seeks more power but fails in the moment it matters most.
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Jan 19, 2021 16:25
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Yes yes I'm not the god of hammers, you've definitely put that nail in, but I don't like being the god of thunder in a tight-corridored spaceship so it's good to have a plan B.
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Jan 19, 2021 18:00
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Aphrodite posted:Stormbreaker works great. Thor just aims badly. The funny thing is, while the extra bells and whistles of Stormbreaker come in handy (bifrost teleportation and deflection), Thor ends up lucking out by being in the exact right place at the exact right time to slay Thanos. Endgame shows that Stormbreaker alone isn't going to stop a lucid and powerless Thanos, even if you have allies with you. Thor was fortunate enough to go at him while his brains were scrambled from the sudden power surge... and he STILL screwed it up! Because Thor's deal in Infinity War and Endgame is that he thinks it's all about him and in that moment was more focused on making Thanos pay than actually stopping Thanos.
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Jan 19, 2021 18:15
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I still don't understand people thinking the story of Ragnarok was that Thor using any weapon at all for any reason is counter to his new character. He learned he doesn't need a hammer to have self-worth and be a good fighter. That doesn't mean a big axe isn't useful to fight the strongest thing in existence. He still did the glowy blue lightning thing. And when Mjolnir is back in action in Endgame, he lets Steve mess with it because he knows it's not about the tool.
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Jan 19, 2021 18:37
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He lets Steve use it because he wants to use the bigger one.
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Jan 19, 2021 18:42
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Gavok posted:The funny thing is, while the extra bells and whistles of Stormbreaker come in handy (bifrost teleportation and deflection), Thor ends up lucking out by being in the exact right place at the exact right time to slay Thanos. Endgame shows that Stormbreaker alone isn't going to stop a lucid and powerless Thanos, even if you have allies with you. Thor was fortunate enough to go at him while his brains were scrambled from the sudden power surge... and he STILL screwed it up! Because Thor's deal in Infinity War and Endgame is that he thinks it's all about him and in that moment was more focused on making Thanos pay than actually stopping Thanos. I feel like Endgame Thanos was significantly stronger than Infinity War Thanos just for the sake of having a cooler final battle. While he was indeed able to box Hulk out in Infinity War, he did come out on top of several encounters only because he had the gems and used them cleverly. Then when every single Avenger is on his rear end and he doesn't have a single gem, suddenly he's able to fend them all off for a sustained battle? I mean I know there were some brown CGI soldiers in the background keeping the backup occupied at times but still.
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Jan 19, 2021 18:45
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You can probably reason it out as him using armour and weaponry that he's familiar with in Endgame, versus in IW where he has the Infinity Gauntlet but he's still figuring out what he can do with them on-the-fly.
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Jan 19, 2021 18:57
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Gavok posted:Endgame shows that Stormbreaker alone isn't going to stop a lucid and powerless Thanos, even if you have allies with you. Endgame Thor had also spent 5 years in a drunken depressed stupor in his gamer pad though so it's hard to judge how he'd fare against Thanos at the end if he was bringing his A game.
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Jan 19, 2021 19:03
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