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I don’t get much from ACOUP honestly. Maybe you could quote some of what your think the best insights are
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Jan 18, 2021 20:11
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euphronius posted:I don’t get much from ACOUP honestly. Maybe you could quote some of what your think the best insights are The strategy tree in https://acoup.blog/2020/06/19/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-viii-the-mind-of-saruman/ shows how badly Saruman cocked up his planning. He has only one way of winning, and that only if he can get the Ring working for him: quote:A strategy tree showing the position Saruman has locked himself into. Yellow outcomes are good for Saruman, purple outcomes are good for Sauron, and Green outcomes are good for the Free Peoples. 
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Jan 18, 2021 20:19
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Ok so he has path to victory. What is the issue .
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Jan 18, 2021 20:20
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getting merely "executed" seems like a pretty optimistic outcome honestly
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Jan 18, 2021 20:25
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euphronius posted:Ok so he has path to victory. One path. Which assumes he wins at Helm's Deep, that the Ents don't get off their woody asses, that he gets hold of the Ring and he can make the Ring work. His basic problem is that he starts a war with Rohan (and therefore Gondor) and simultaneously goes after the Ring, which makes him an enemy of Sauron as soon as Sauron finds out. So everyone with an army is going to be heading to stomp him as soon as they finish with each other.
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Jan 18, 2021 20:26
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Gats Akimbo posted:One path. Which assumes he wins at Helm's Deep, that the Ents don't get off their woody asses, that he gets hold of the Ring and he can make the Ring work. Have you heard about Gandalf’s plan to win? It’s even more outrageous in comparison.
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Jan 18, 2021 20:28
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euphronius posted:I read Lotr that seems like enough to have an opinion. He’s not a cargo cult leader. euphronius posted:I don’t get much from ACOUP honestly. Maybe you could quote some of what your think the best insights are Yeah, it's overly verbose fanfiction.
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Jan 18, 2021 20:32
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Saruman probably knows he’s been abandoned by the Gods. He doesn’t look at the stars anymore. No messages from Varda for him. He’s got to make his play at some point. If he sits there and hangs out he loses too? I think he does a decent job. He totally took over the White Council and blinded Gandalf as to the true nature of the one ring. That was smart . And he almost captured Gandalf !! Gandalf at a few points says how foolish he (Gandalf) was wrt yo Saruman so he’s at least manipulating Gandalf well which is hard to do. Or he did for a long time.
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Jan 18, 2021 20:54
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euphronius posted:Have you heard about Gandalf’s plan to win? It’s even more outrageous in comparison. Yes, it is. But still, I'm basing the idea that Sauron would win even if Saruman had the Ring on the books and assuming Sauron isn't a complete idiot (which is also supported). He sends a single Ringwraith to Orthanc when he thinks that Saruman has a hobbit prisoner and isn't answering his palantir. So, when Sauron suspects that Saruman might be a reluctant ally only and may have the Ring, Gandalf suggests that Sauron will send only one Nazgul. (The one that flies over the camp just after Pippin looks into the stone must already have been en route, and so is just showing up to find out why Saruman isn't answering the palantir) If he truly feared Saruman as a rival, or even had an inkling of doubt that Saruman could defeat him, he would not be sending a lone Nazgul to discover why Saruman is withholding the Ring, or sending only a Nazgul to try and take it from him. It is possible that Gandalf misjudges Sauron here, but I don't think so. It is also possible that Sauron simply has no other option, but I still don't think that's it. Sauron just simply believes that Saruman can't, or won't, challenge him. In contrast, Sauron launches an attack on Minas Tirith as soon as he thinks Aragorn has the Ring, because he thinks Aragorn and Gondor could stand a chance, however slight, of defeating him. The response is very, very different depending on who Sauron thinks has claimed the Ring. Also, the idea that only the very strongest could take the Ring from Sauron instead of rising in pointless challenge and so giving it to him is compelling. Galadriel is the onlyy one of the Wise that I remember suggesting that she would supplant Sauron (and replace him) while everyone else is talked about as if they would rise to challenge him in vain and so give him the Ring in a slightly more roundabout fashion. Saruman thinking that he could supplant Sauron sounds to me like someone who is falling for the Ring's temptations even at such a remote distance, as well as succumbing to Pride. euphronius posted:If he sits there and hangs out he loses too? I think he does a decent job. He totally took over the White Council and blinded Gandalf as to the true nature of the one ring. That was smart . And he almost captured Gandalf !! Gandalf at a few points says how foolish he (Gandalf) was wrt yo Saruman so he’s at least manipulating Gandalf well which is hard to do. Or he did for a long time. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jan 18, 2021 |
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Jan 18, 2021 21:09
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Ravenfood posted:Yes, it is. Who doesn't Gandalf call a fool?
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Jan 18, 2021 21:22
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ChubbyChecker posted:Who doesn't Gandalf call a fool? Elrond, Galadriel, Theoden, Faramir all spring to mind. And while he technically calls the Fellowship fools, he also tells Aragorn that he's never known Aragorn to be foolish or hasty, so that's not something to take for sure. Its, like, Pippin, Gandalf, and Saruman who get named that individually.
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Jan 18, 2021 21:27
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I think broadly speaking, it would be very possible for someone LIKE saruman to claim the ring, but he is basically engaged on this path because he already pitted his spiritual might against Sauron one on one and lost, so the battle for dominance over the ring has already happened and Sauron knows he already won it.
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Jan 18, 2021 21:30
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the ring drives people insane and power hungry so they make bad decisions, it's no more complicated than that
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Jan 18, 2021 21:50
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Shibawanko posted:the ring drives people insane and power hungry so they make bad decisions, it's no more complicated than that Hiding from the Sackville-Bagginses was not only good, but the best decision Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jan 18, 2021 |
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Jan 18, 2021 22:19
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euphronius posted:Have you heard about Gandalf’s plan to win? It’s even more outrageous in comparison. Not really. Saruman's relying on finding the Ring, but he doesn't even tell his Uruk-hai what they're looking for. So they catch him a couple of hobbits but they've got the wrong hobbits, and that was the one single time he might have had a thin chance of getting the Ring into his hands (assuming the Uruk-hai managed to escape the Rohirrim in this alt-reality where they managed to nab Frodo instead). His plan has far less chance of working than Gandalf's does. ChubbyChecker posted:Who doesn't Gandalf call a fool? Barliman Butterbur. He even tells Frodo off for calling him one.
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Jan 18, 2021 22:21
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Gandalf’s plan only works because of providence which is cheating honestly
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Jan 18, 2021 22:26
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If you're in a catholic universe, faith is just good planning.
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Jan 18, 2021 22:28
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Ravenfood I’m on my phone so I can’t properly quote all that but I think Wouldn’t Sauron know for sure if Saruman had the ring . Sauron would claim and it that would be that. However Saruman had no idea if Gandalf had claimed the ring (Saruman thought he was a fool for not claiming it) so idk
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Jan 18, 2021 22:34
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tell you what though if a fella like Saruman came up to me from his shadowy tower, with creepy & arrogant disposition i'd perceive his designs immediately, theres no way a guy like that isn't up to no good. Gandalf is a loving dumbass "ohhh yeah but he used his voice on me" - Bro come on he was on the boat with you. He was literally complaining about you before you even got down there
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Jan 18, 2021 22:42
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Gandalf does perceive something is wrong right away but doesn’t act on it . Derp. Like as soon as he enters into orthanc
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Jan 18, 2021 22:47
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euphronius posted:Ravenfood I’m on my phone so I can’t properly quote all that but I think Wouldn’t Sauron know for sure if Saruman had the ring . Sauron would claim and it that would be that. That's a good question. Sauron's timing is predicated on the idea that Aragorn has the Ring and thinks to use it to challenge him. Yet he does not KNOW this in the same way that he immediately knows that Frodo claimed it. Frodo also puts it on at the same time. My guess is that it is somehow due to Frodo's presence within Mordor, or even his presence at Mt Doom, since its a general theme that the powerful lords have supernatural ways to detect what is in their realm (and many times, Sauron's somewhat innate knowledge of Mordor is distracted by other events). And at other times when Frodo puts it on, he doesn't claim it, so it could also be that combination that makes Sauron immediately aware. I don't think Sauron would immediately know, though, at least until someone tried to actually use it. He might, though. Either way he's not worried by Saruman the way he is by Aragorn.
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Jan 18, 2021 22:53
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euphronius posted:Gandalf does perceive something is wrong right away but doesn’t act on it . Derp. Oh yeah that's right, he never met Saruman before that point. How could I forget
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Jan 18, 2021 22:54
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euphronius posted:Gandalf does perceive something is wrong right away but doesn’t act on it . Derp. If he actually took action against Saruman he would lose his opportunity to drop sick burns such as “I liked white better”
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Jan 18, 2021 22:55
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euphronius posted:Ravenfood I’m on my phone so I can’t properly quote all that but I think Wouldn’t Sauron know for sure if Saruman had the ring . Sauron would claim and it that would be that. When Pippin looks into the Palantir Sauron thinks he's Frodo being forced to use it by Saruman. He makes Pippin say "It is not for you, Saruman!" referring to the Ring. So Sauron clearly thinks Saruman has the Ring and is reminding him not to claim it for his own. I think we can infer that Sauron wouldn't automagically know that Saruman was in possession of the Ring - maybe if Saruman claimed it formally, the way Frodo did at the Cracks of Doom. But he didn't know when Bilbo claimed it, so maybe that's not the whole of what's needed.
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Jan 18, 2021 23:07
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Yeah I was making the distinction between claim and possess
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Jan 18, 2021 23:10
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The idea that the Nazgul aren't potent warriors is pretty much directly disproven by how The Witch King beats the poo poo out of Eowyn with a big rear end mace, no? I mean yeah she kills him but it's going pretty badly for her until Merry stabs him from behind. In general though yeah terror is their most potent weapon.
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Jan 18, 2021 23:13
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Ginette Reno posted:The idea that the Nazgul aren't potent warriors is pretty much directly disproven by how The Witch King beats the poo poo out of Eowyn with a big rear end mace, no? I mean yeah she kills him but it's going pretty badly for her until Merry stabs him from behind. I think there is a difference in power between the Nazgûl as the Black Riders who are searching for Baggins in the Shire and get punked by Frodo calling out "Elbereth"'s name at Weathertop and the Nazgûl after they get unhorsed and rebuilt. In Bree they basically have to work through agents like Bill Ferny, and they get chased out of Buckland by the Hobbits rallying to defend their own. It's really implied that their terror works best on lone and scared individuals at that point, and that camaraderie (singing and telling tales of heroics and tragedy) bolsters the spirit in a way that is actually effective against them. After they get pasted by the river Bruinen (plus a Wizard and at least one Elven Ring) they get upgraded - not just Fell Beasts, but at least the Witch-King can now spread the Black Breath across entire battlefields, and he was about to throw down toe-to-toe with Gandalf (the White!) at the Great Gate of Gondor before he had to go deal with the charge of the Rohirrim. You can't shake that off by singing about Beren and Luthien. He absolutely could not have done that before compared to what he was capable of at Weathertop. There must have been an upgrade in preparation for the War, an investment of more power in the Nazgûl by Sauron as they were to become major pieces on the battlefield.
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Jan 18, 2021 23:29
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the difference is that he has an army which causes people to be afraid of him, making him stronger and more bold. hes basically a shapeless ghost whose power relies on how people perceive him, he can also fight but it probably just depends on what weapon he has, having a big mace makes him stronger the way having a robe gives him a shape
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Jan 18, 2021 23:39
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i dont think it should be analyzed too closely either because i really dont like to think in DBZ power level terms about this stuff but one main idea that comes from the books is that the nazgul dont have any inherent properties or personality, the ring is a fetishistic object that gives you power outside of what's in yourself so what happened to them was that everything that they once were before they got the 9 rings was eventually eroded away and their power purely comes from outside of them rather than from within them, it depends on what tools they have and how people see them, without robes and horses they're blind like naked molerats
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Jan 18, 2021 23:55
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Shibawanko posted:i dont think it should be analyzed too closely either because i really dont like to think in DBZ power level terms about this stuff but one main idea that comes from the books is that the nazgul dont have any inherent properties or personality, the ring is a fetishistic object that gives you power outside of what's in yourself so what happened to them was that everything that they once were before they got the 9 rings was eventually eroded away and their power purely comes from outside of them rather than from within them, it depends on what tools they have and how people see them, without robes and horses they're blind like naked molerats They also have a preference to avoid revealing or risking themselves. They prefer to attack at night not just because they're more terrifying there but also because it's less risk to them. They also work through agents like Bill Ferny and such so as to not risk themselves directly. When they stab Frodo at Weathertop they withdraw instead of pressing their advantage because they think the knife wound will do its work for them. They only openly attack the Fellowship during the day at the ford of Bruinen because they're desperate and they know Frodo will be out of their reach if he gets to Rivendell. I don't think they're incapable of fighting if they have to but Sauron doesn't want to risk his most important servants that way. Not unless it's important (as in Battle of Pellenor Fields where if the Witch King hadn't tried to directly intervene the forces of Mordor would have been for sure routed).
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Jan 19, 2021 00:28
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Anshu posted:Other people's mileage may vary, but I find that the works of the fan author bunn, particularly their Return to Aman series (in which Maglor is pardoned at Elrond's request and allowed to come back across the sea with his foster-son, Galadriel, Gandalf, Bilbo, and Frodo), does an excellent job capturing the feeling of the world without seeming to work at it. i dont like the idea of saving maglor because i dont think youre really supposed to read the silmarillion as a literal account of events. maglor is a mythical person and while the silmarillion says he should still be around playing his harp and weeping i don't think he could actually be found if someone were to go looking for him in the third age any more than we could go up olympus and expect to find gods there
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Jan 19, 2021 00:49
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Lemniscate Blue posted:He absolutely could not have done that before compared to what he was capable of at Weathertop. There must have been an upgrade in preparation for the War, an investment of more power in the Nazgûl by Sauron as they were to become major pieces on the battlefield. Spent most of the trip back from Rivendell to Minas Morgul grinding side-quests and farming XP
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Jan 19, 2021 02:42
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Shibawanko posted:the difference is that he has an army which causes people to be afraid of him, making him stronger and more bold. hes basically a shapeless ghost whose power relies on how people perceive him, he can also fight but it probably just depends on what weapon he has, having a big mace makes him stronger the way having a robe gives him a shape That makes a lot of sense! I like this idea a lot more than Nazgul having 3000 HP and a bonus saving throw against ice attacks. A solo ringwraith lurking around a lost person has the power to spook and unsettle, sort of amplifying what they're already feeling; while a ringwraith commanding an army takes on the shape/essence/powers of that army, and can start swinging a mace around. The nazgul are tools, not people; basically machines for transporting their respective rings for Sauron's purposes.
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Jan 19, 2021 02:49
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GimpInBlack posted:My personal favorite I like the part where Pippin becomes Denethor’s jester and has to respond to his question about whether Boromir hooked up with Galadriel No, because she hosed Frodo instead
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Jan 19, 2021 03:00
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moment in that script is when Merry uses the magic of Lembas to fantasize about performing oral sex on Galadriel.
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Gats Akimbo posted:His army's tiny in comparison and got splattered in the field by a load of horse-riding brigands. And doesn't Sauron himself have the Nine (as well as some of the Seven)? Do the Ringwraiths wear them? At the Council of Rivendell, we learn that Sauron has gathered the Nine, and Gandalf says that the Nazgul keep their rings, but he doesn't have perfect knowledge. Tolkien clarified (or decided) later that Sauron controlled the wraiths through his physical possession of the Nine.
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Jan 19, 2021 03:13
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perc2 posted:tell you what though if a fella like Saruman came up to me from his shadowy tower, with creepy & arrogant disposition i'd perceive his designs immediately, theres no way a guy like that isn't up to no good. Gandalf is a loving dumbass The shadowy tower was built by Numenorians and Gandalf's plan involves sticking one of them on a throne.
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Jan 19, 2021 03:33
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reignonyourparade posted:I think broadly speaking, it would be very possible for someone LIKE saruman to claim the ring, but he is basically engaged on this path because he already pitted his spiritual might against Sauron one on one and lost, so the battle for dominance over the ring has already happened and Sauron knows he already won it. If I recall Sauron was much more concerned that Gandalf or Aragorn had the Ring, and it was clear Aragorn had more grit than Saruman since he was able to muscle the palantir back to his will. I assume Galadriel would have also probably done well.
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Jan 19, 2021 03:52
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Shibawanko posted:i dont like the idea of saving maglor because i dont think youre really supposed to read the silmarillion as a literal account of events. maglor is a mythical person and while the silmarillion says he should still be around playing his harp and weeping i don't think he could actually be found if someone were to go looking for him in the third age any more than we could go up olympus and expect to find gods there I'm not sure what the Silmarillion is supposed to be if not a literal account of events. You say Maglor is a mythical person, but if that's so, then Galadriel, Celeborn, and Cirdan must be equally mythical, with Elrond at least halfway as mythical, and all of them are very physical through the entirety of Third Age. Indeed, the running theme of the Third Age is that it is the last Age in which ancient myth and magic play an active role in the world; after its conclusion, all the remaining Elves and divine emissaries retreat across the sea to Valinor – analogous to going up Olympus in your metaphor – and become inaccessible to mortal men, or else remain and fade into imperceptibility.
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Jan 19, 2021 05:36
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The Baggins are into elvish lore, so when galadriel gives Frodo that phial does he know that star is elrond's dad?
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Jan 19, 2021 06:30
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Blood Boils posted:The Baggins are into elvish lore, so when galadriel gives Frodo that phial does he know that star is elrond's dad? Yes He does a whole poem about him in Rivendell that the elfs actually thought was ok Oh no wait that’s bilbo ! Sorry.
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Jan 19, 2021 06:33
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