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punk rebel ecks posted:I really think I'm going to get a bachelor's degree in computer science. I see it as a preferred, if not a requirement, in most job listings and I don't want to be hamstrung in the application process. I don't mean to totally discourage this, but I don't think it is the optimal path toward a tech career especially if you already have a bachelor's of any kind. If you don't have a bachelor's at all, then I support the plan a bit more. A bachelor's degree is perhaps the most expensive and slowest method to take on, and it still doesn't guarantee you much of anything job-wise since it is highly theoretical and academic compared to practical job skills. Many foundational CS courses are math classes, not programming classes. All valuable knowledge, but if you're primarily looking to get practical skills for a job then starting from first principles in a classroom is perhaps not the best method. Plus the opportunity cost of spending a couple years, minimum, to graduate. All those job postings saying that a CS degree is required are misleading. Most of them don't actually care it's just HR job req boilerplate. Experience and demonstrable skills are far, far more important. I don't have a CS degree. At least half of my team doesn't have a CS degree. As an applicant, we don't particularly care if you have a CS degree, but our job posting probably says we do because it's just the stupid reality we live in that every job req says that. There's obviously a chicken-or-egg problem there, with getting experience, and that's where self-education and working on projects like a real web or mobile app and not just repeating tutorial hell come in. This is the sort of thing a bootcamp will (or should) focus on compared to a university program. Regardless of the path you choose, I just want to reiterate what others have said: there is no easy path. Software development is hard and full of ambiguity. The domain is vast, complex, and "unsolved" compared to many trades that are more "by the book". There is no book to go by. In fact it's even worse than that, there are a thousand different books to go by all saying different things, and new ones being written every day for better or worse. Part of being a software engineer is being able to wrangle this ambiguity and be comfortable with continually not knowing the answer and then researching and working to find a solution. And then continually fixing all the little (or big!) mistakes you made along the way. The more you know, the more you know you don't know. Software dev is so in demand and hard to fill because it is difficult and broad and ill-defined and requires a skillset and mentality that is not for everyone. There is no standardized curriculum or recognized certification that signals competence or achievement. That it is an accessible industry without a CS degree I think speaks more to the fact that a CS degree is pretty disconnected from actual development work, not that the industry is easy or openminded. Guinness fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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Jan 19, 2021 20:14
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Guinness posted:That it is an accessible industry without a CS degree I think speaks more to the fact that a CS degree is pretty disconnected from actual development work, not that the industry is easy or openminded. Totally agree with everything in your post and this sentence in particular is a great summary. Spending 4 years and $15K+ on something that essentially gives you a small boost in the resume screen, doesn't seem worth it. If someone is dead-set on getting the degree, I would advise them to also join a bunch of school clubs, make a ton of connections, and really squeeze the juice out of whatever institutional advantage going to a university gives you, because that one-line on your resume won't be worth that much on its own.
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Jan 19, 2021 20:37
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Yeah, you guys are dissuading me from getting the CS degree. It's just that the entire degree will cost me like $16,000, while a coding bootcamp will be like $13,000. It also would take me two years instead of four to get the bachelor's. EDIT - For reference these are some of the jobs I would want to be able to apply for graduating/completing my training: https://indeedhi.re/39J986c https://indeedhi.re/3qzymun https://indeedhi.re/3o5RUoM https://indeedhi.re/3bXcapY https://indeedhi.re/2KvdmWr https://indeedhi.re/3bVCot8 https://indeedhi.re/3nX2gHq https://indeedhi.re/2M9qWyU https://indeedhi.re/3bVE99A I hope these jobs would be realistic. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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Jan 19, 2021 21:10
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punk rebel ecks posted:Yeah, I think getting a degree would be a nice way to flesh things out and build myself a foundation. You're getting some tough love in this thread and I'd like to pile on it. Honestly it seems like you've done a little research and heard some things and you're extrapolating to some big assumptions, I hope you're listening to the learned people in this thread who are trying to set you straight. A degree is good, but not needed and probably not an ideal path if your priority is getting a decent paying job. It also will be even less of a resume point the further in your career you go, though all of this also depends on the path you choose. "Programmer" isn't a monolithic thing with a set path. If you want to pursue data science or architecture or something a CS degree will help a lot more than Front-End CRUD or design. Mobile App Development might or might not be the strongest market. Where I live its not at all, but Banking/Retail/Medical front-end is huge. And UX design is probably more important in mobile applications than anywhere else. Again, you keep mentioning certs but they are not useful. What is useful is getting to the point where you can build something that you can intelligently explain that can impress someone. I talk to people about the weirdo music web music player or eSports stat tracker in an interview, not their certs or classes. Some people can get there on their own, some people need structured learning like a boot camp, some people want to dive deep and could use a university background. My advice continues to be the same: take some time now to spend time (say 4, 2 hour sessions a week at least?) to learn some basics and try to grow out from there to see what you like and what you don't. I honestly think you'd probably be best served with a good bootcamp since you seem to really want a structured path, but that can come later. You do that you'd probably be qualified for a entry-level CRUD developer, which usually pays $70k-$90k (for normal city markets) and you'd have a real good career path into UX if that's something that attracts you.
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Jan 19, 2021 21:19
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Lockback posted:You're getting some tough love in this thread and I'd like to pile on it. Honestly it seems like you've done a little research and heard some things and you're extrapolating to some big assumptions, I hope you're listening to the learned people in this thread who are trying to set you straight. Yeah this is good. I'll just stick with CourseEra type classes and practice making stuff. Would taking on jobs posted on Craiglist or what not be good to brush up my resume with concrete paid projects I've done?
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Jan 19, 2021 21:22
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punk rebel ecks posted:Would taking on jobs posted on Craiglist or what not be good to brush up my resume with concrete paid projects I've done? I think it's probably worthwhile to take on a freelance project once or twice, just to get the experience of working under a deadline for a client. It will probably help to have one or two of those on your resume if you've got nothing else to show. I would choose the projects wisely though. Speaking as a hiring manager and interviewer, I'd rather talk to a candidate about their Python-based passion project than a Church website they built with Wordpress.
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Jan 19, 2021 21:48
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punk rebel ecks posted:
Some of these jobs sound awful, but yes that's the basic idea. I don't know how bad Portland's tech market is outside of Intel/Ebay, so I might be giving you somewhat inflated numbers. And generally that first job is 2 years of being kinda crappy and the 2nd job is way better.
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Jan 19, 2021 21:49
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Lockback posted:Some of these jobs sound awful, but yes that's the basic idea. I don't know how bad Portland's tech market is outside of Intel/Ebay, so I might be giving you somewhat inflated numbers. And generally that first job is 2 years of being kinda crappy and the 2nd job is way better. Could you elaborate on "crappy"? Like what's the pay and work hours like? Also in terms of bootcamps, would you recommend something like this? punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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Jan 19, 2021 22:03
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punk rebel ecks posted:Could you elaborate on "crappy"? Like what's the pay and work hours like? I'd say a job that pays $50k would be crappy for what you deal with. You'll probably be doing a lot of crappy bug work that no one else wants to do and maybe not have a very good support system. Some places are better (I try to actively make 'Engineers first job' to be supportive and something where people can fail without it being a thing and where we actively prep people to get that better next job, but the feedback I get is that this is pretty rare) but I'd brace that 50+ hour weeks won't be uncommon and you'd probably be given projects that are not setup for success. I have good friends in the competitive restaurant business or in construction or teaching or healthcare so this is all relative. My "bad weeks" are usually a cakewalk in comparison. UX bootcamps are a bit of a risk, tbh. My company would love someone from there, other companies hire for front-end devs and then turn them into UX people. The "safer" path would be front-end development and try to grow into UX. They have a job guarantee (which is going to be on the crappier side) but that's better than nothing. I'm also someone more on the DevOps/Backend side so I don't have a great pulse on the UX market 
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Jan 19, 2021 22:31
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Are most of the jobs for programming in cities? I live in rural new England and have never lived in a city.
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Jan 20, 2021 00:05
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Biden-voting counties represent 70% of the American economy. Jobs are generally in cities and that's not changing any time soon.
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Jan 20, 2021 00:17
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That sucks. That said I always wanted to live in Philly or move back to Tampa
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Jan 20, 2021 00:18
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Empress Brosephine posted:Are most of the jobs for programming in cities? I live in rural new England and have never lived in a city. Remote jobs are getting more common and there are always smaller places or occasional satellite offices. That said, you have a much harder growth path and less alternatives to use as negotiation & landing spots. Don't move back to Tampa on purpose though.
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Jan 20, 2021 00:25
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Empress Brosephine posted:That sucks. That said I always wanted to live in Philly or move back to Tampa If you've never lived in a city, moving to Philly would be a big culture shock.
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Jan 20, 2021 00:27
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Empress Brosephine posted:Are most of the jobs for programming in cities? I live in rural new England and have never lived in a city. how rural, we talking like Jackman, ME, or like Lunenburg, MA? at least where I grew up in very rural Vermont, bandwidth is gonna be your biggest hurdle to securing a remote job. Have to be in a decent sized town to get good coverage.
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Jan 20, 2021 00:45
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I've hired and interviewed a whole ton of software developers and an academic degree is about the last thing i would care about. Going into a lot of debt for one to get your first coding job (which won't pay great and is going to suck) isn't a great idea imho. Also realize that if you're applying for an entry-esh level position right now you're competing against hundreds of OPT workers with BS+MS + 2-3y of experience. e: I would actually add that the demand for software engineers is for seniors that don't cost north of 200k/y. You can post an entry level position anywhere right now and get 100+ resumes of people who are vaguely qualified. Schnorkles fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jan 20, 2021 |
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Jan 20, 2021 00:49
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:how rural, we talking like Jackman, ME, or like Lunenburg, MA? at least where I grew up in very rural Vermont, bandwidth is gonna be your biggest hurdle to securing a remote job. Have to be in a decent sized town to get good coverage. I live on the border of northern VT and NH lol. I basically would have to move to Burlington or Boston/Manchester but there doesn't seem to be many jobs in NH for programing. I loved in Tampa for like a year and loved it, I worked for Disney in their Travel Operations division out there so it would be a option. Currently i freelance web dev (nothing big though, mostly wordpress) so I do have freedom to work wherever but I see this train coming to a stop eventually as I hate having my own business
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Jan 20, 2021 01:04
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Would a Boot Camp with "job guarantee" be a good idea? I will admit that the "hundreds of applications" before I get hired for an entry level job intimidates me, and being able to guarantee an entry level job right away seems like the smarter thing to do.
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Jan 20, 2021 04:57
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Empress Brosephine posted:I live on the border of northern VT and NH lol. I basically would have to move to Burlington or Boston/Manchester but there doesn't seem to be many jobs in NH for programing. I loved in Tampa for like a year and loved it, I worked for Disney in their Travel Operations division out there so it would be a option. oh word, yeah. I spent time in Caanan once, that place is drat far from everything. Remote job is probably the way to go rather than looking for anything in NH.
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Jan 20, 2021 13:40
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punk rebel ecks posted:Would a Boot Camp with "job guarantee" be a good idea? I don't know anything about it, but if it's truly a "job guarantee", it might be worth it. It's always easier to find a job when you have a job, so even if it's short term, just having that first real programming job on your resume will give you a boost over every other boot camp graduate. In either case, I highly recommend studying up on how to network, use the briefcase technique, do cold emails, whatever else you can think of to skip the job application process. It's lovely, you'll always be competing against people with better resumes, and it's way more work than it's worth. Some alternative strategies (that have worked for me):
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Jan 20, 2021 18:43
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sim posted:I don't know anything about it, but if it's truly a "job guarantee", it might be worth it. It's always easier to find a job when you have a job, so even if it's short term, just having that first real programming job on your resume will give you a boost over every other boot camp graduate. In either case, I highly recommend studying up on how to network, use the briefcase technique, do cold emails, whatever else you can think of to skip the job application process. It's lovely, you'll always be competing against people with better resumes, and it's way more work than it's worth. Some alternative strategies (that have worked for me): Good stuff. Thanks!
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Jan 20, 2021 19:08
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Those "Job Guarantees" are frequenlty low-wage temp work that doesn't really help much in the "getting past 100s of resumes to find that first real job". Its better than nothing but I wouldn't expect it to mean you'd skip that step.
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Jan 20, 2021 19:50
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Also, good/reputable bootcamps tend to have connections in place for internship and entry-level placements at companies willing to take on junior and non-traditional folks. Sometimes up to and including FAANG-like companies. This is like half the benefit of a good bootcamp. But you will still have to do proper interviews and nothing is guaranteed, but it's a huge advantage. The fine print in a lot of those "guaranteed jobs" is that you get at least one offer from anyone. Even if it's a terrible company and a terrible fit, they "got you a job" and fulfilled their end of the contract. You want to aim higher than that. I can't help but get the sense from your posts that you're looking for the cheat codes to a tech job, or want to just pay someone else to get you there. This approach isn't going to pan out in the long run. Even if you do a bootcamp or university program you're still going to need to do hundreds to thousands of hours of solo work on your own time to self-educate, grow skills, and practice on real world problems and projects. This will involve spending a lot of time getting stuck and banging your head against the wall until you get unstuck. If you can't get started on that right now on your own volition given the endless amount of free resources out there I think you're going to be facing a very uphill battle. Day to day developer life is not all that different in the sorts of challenges you face: unclear requirements, frustrating ambiguity, poor documentation, and no golden path guidance. Apologies if that is a harsh read on the situation, but for better advice I think you need to start narrowing down what it is that you're after and reset expectations about how to get there. Guinness fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Jan 20, 2021 |
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Jan 20, 2021 20:40
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When do you know that your portfolio is “ready” and how do you guys go about sharing things that you created / worked on that aren’t personal projects but professional projects? I have a pretty big project I’m working on now that I’m extremely proud of (so far…) and would like to show it off, but obviously I don’t want to let any tom dick or harry have access to another companies data and software.
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Jan 20, 2021 21:02
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Guinness posted:I can't help but get the sense from your posts that you're looking for the cheat codes to a tech job, or want to just pay someone else to get you there. This approach isn't going to pan out in the long run. Even if you do a bootcamp or university program you're still going to need to do hundreds to thousands of hours of solo work on your own time to self-educate, grow skills, and practice on real world problems and projects. This will involve spending a lot of time getting stuck and banging your head against the wall until you get unstuck. If you can't get started on that right now on your own volition given the endless amount of free resources out there I think you're going to be facing a very uphill battle. Day to day developer life is not all that different in the sorts of challenges you face: unclear requirements, frustrating ambiguity, poor documentation, and no golden path guidance. I have zero problem actually learning to code and creating my own portfolio of projects. That actually sounds like the fun part to me. I just want to know the qualifications/what will aid me the most in securing a position for entry level and future. That's why I thought if getting a bachelor's in Computer Science since I was worried that hiring manages would overlook my resume. But apparently most of you say that isn't an issue. I have had some people say that since I already have a bachelor's I should try to get a Master's in Computer Science instead, which seems strange to me. Edit - Like the official newbie get a job thread on the coding subforum has different advice from the thread. So that's why some of this was difficult for me to swallow at first. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Jan 20, 2021 |
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Jan 20, 2021 21:08
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Empress Brosephine posted:When do you know that your portfolio is “ready” and how do you guys go about sharing things that you created / worked on that aren’t personal projects but professional projects? I have a pretty big project I’m working on now that I’m extremely proud of (so far…) and would like to show it off, but obviously I don’t want to let any tom dick or harry have access to another companies data and software. If the companies you're dealing with aren't incredibly stupid, they've had you sign an NDA. Violating it will not end well for you. Work on your personal projects. punk rebel ecks posted:That's why I thought if getting a bachelor's in Computer Science since I was worried that hiring manages would overlook my resume. But apparently most of you say that isn't an issue. I have had some people say that since I already have a bachelor's I should try to get a Master's in Computer Science instead, which seems strange to me. There are various master's programs in CS that are essentially accelerated bachelor's programs. I know UChicago and UPenn both have them, and there are presumably others.
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Jan 20, 2021 21:12
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punk rebel ecks posted:Edit - Like the official newbie get a job thread on the coding subforum has different advice from the thread. So that's why some of this was difficult for me to swallow at first. Note that the OP in that thread was first written in 2010 and hasn't been updated since 2015. Plus the OP has this disclaimer at the top: quote:Personally, I'm of the CS degree/BigTechCo variety of coding goon, so some of what I write here may be biased towards that experience.
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Jan 20, 2021 22:31
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A CS degree is probably the ideal way to get started. It's also the most expensive and takes the longest. So there's no best way and based on what you've said you wanted CS doesn't seem the ideal route. Again, if you said you really want to do architecture or create the AI that will enslave us I'd say head to school, easy.
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Jan 20, 2021 22:39
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I really hope you all don't feel discourage about the advice you've given me as I really am taking it to heart and changing my plans. If I were to go to get a degree it would obviously be paired with me consisting practicing with various languages and building up my portfolio with various projects. But if I am not going to get a degree I could see myself just polishing up my skills over and over and self-teaching myself and try to network around.
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Jan 20, 2021 22:45
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I’ve been in Insurance (mostly customer service, some sales) for four years now and I feel like I’m stagnating. I’ve got an AA in business administration which seems basically worthless, and licenses in all types of insurance that allow me to do my job. I currently work for a small (7 people including the owners) independent insurance broker and aside from opening my own agency there really doesn’t seem to be any room for advancement. My dad advised me that I should get IT certificates and change fields entirely, which I’m very open to and currently working on. I’d like to find somewhere to go in the meantime however that allows for me to make more and not have to work 60 hours each week between two jobs. Any advice on what to look for or merging these two professional areas is greatly appreciated!
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Jan 25, 2021 07:38
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What IT certificates are you looking at?
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Jan 25, 2021 15:10
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I’m working on A+ right now, and will probably follow that with Sec+
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Jan 25, 2021 16:07
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Cant Ride A Bus posted:I’m working on A+ right now, and will probably follow that with Sec+ You mighta got some bad (at least outdated) advice. A+ is pretty worthless outside of $15 an hour dead-end jobs these days. Sec+ isn't bad but it's more of a supplementary thing, not really a "get a job" kind of cert. There are better people in this thread who'd know IT stuff but this sounds very much like "advice from 2002", not really good advice for today. I'm more a software guy more than IT, so please someone correct me/give additional or different perspective. But I have a minute so here's my advice: 1. Start working backwards. What job(s) do you want, do you think are realistic, do you think you'd be good at? If you start too broad here success will be tough. If you laser in on somethings you'll be able to build a much better plan. You can always adjust later so don't feel too much pressure. It's better to work towards something though. 2. I think for foundational stuff, depending on #1, you'll want some basic coding, some cloud experience, some security experience. There's lots of free/cheap ways to get this. Build a github with some python projects, do a couple free things in AWS/Azure, something like Sec+ isn't bad. This is a good broad set of skills that won't directly get you a job but will be a good foundation. 3. I know very little about you, but offhand I'd probably look at Technical Account Management and Support roles. You can look at postings and glassdoor to find job postings that will give you an idea what people are looking for in your area (you don't need to match 100% of the qualifications, but you'll get an idea on what is needed). I've done a lot of support stuff in my time and it can absolutely be a big money career that is satisfying and not particularly tough, especially for people who have a mix of tech and non tech skills. Same with account management. Your background may be interesting for the latter. Security is another area but in my experience its getting pretty saturated and finding people with 3-5 years experience seems kinda easy. YMMV. 4. At some point you may need to quit your job and do a bootcamp or something. So start thinking about what that looks like. Getting a cushion of money or an ability to move in with parents or w/e can make that realistic and shorten your timeline. I wouldn't start at this step but its a avenue to consider. If you can give more info about what you think you'll be good at or what you want to do you might be better directed advice.
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Jan 25, 2021 16:37
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Lockback posted:You mighta got some bad (at least outdated) advice. A+ is pretty worthless outside of $15 an hour dead-end jobs these days. Sec+ isn't bad but it's more of a supplementary thing, not really a "get a job" kind of cert. There are better people in this thread who'd know IT stuff but this sounds very much like "advice from 2002", not really good advice for today. Thanks for this! The advice I got from my dad is probably out dated, yeah. He works in data sec and that’s the area I’d like to go towards but when I asked him for a starting point he just kinda shrugged and said to check out certifications. Granted he hasn’t had to look for an entry level position in a very, very long time. I was able to get the names of some of his subcontracting companies so I’ll check their requirements and the things they look for and see if I can work backwards from there. I’ll definitely check out technical account management as well, I wasn’t even aware that was a thing. Every time I search for something in account management it just ends up being another insurance agency
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Jan 25, 2021 18:07
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someone mentioned remote working so ill share this link which compares the cost of being a digital nomad in various countries https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/best-countries-for-remote-working
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Feb 14, 2021 06:05
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Lol @ Canberra in Australia making the list. I guess it's so mind-numbingly boring there you'll be excited to get your remote work done! Also lol if you think you can rent a furnished studio apartment for $1500 a month in Central Sydney.
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Feb 14, 2021 12:27
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probably, im in colombia myself ive another link too for that PM guy who likes helping others etc. https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/skills-assessment is a questionnaire that suggests a few roles at the end
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Feb 14, 2021 17:04
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Despite my education and “potential” I’ve spent the last few years stuck in a below-subsistence-level retail job that leaves me so exhausted and miserable I don’t have any energy left to pursue digging myself out. I’ve been on indefinite medical leave since quarantine started as my doctor recommends against my diabetic rear end being anywhere near a cramped, poorly-ventilated liquor store. I went to college and post-grad portfolio school for advertising copywriting over 10 years ago. I never found a job in it because (A) on the conceptual/creative side of things I’m mediocre at best, and that’s really what they value, (B) I came out of school at an economic downturn, and (C) the industry seems to be a toxic environment in which I doubt I could thrive. (Also I was struggling with some serious mental health issues at the time.) What I have discovered from my schooling, as well as subsequent work experiences where writing was incidental, is that I sincerely love the technical craft of writing and editing itself (particularly editing others’ work), and I believe I’m talented at it, to the point where I dream of making it my career. The sticking point, based on explorations of InDeed etc., is that I don’t specifically have a degree in English or any explicit (e.g. job title) professional background as a writer or editor. A (legit) university near me offers a yearlong graduate-level “professional writing certificate” that can be earned online. Would this be a productive use of $5500 and 12 months of my time? Or would my odds of getting hired be just as high (or low) with my current credentials and simply a better resume & portfolio?
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Feb 25, 2021 01:21
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that sounds like an exceedingly poor use of money
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Feb 25, 2021 03:54
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Man, I guess this is a good a place as any for this. I might have a job offer here in a little bit. I live and work in northern Indiana as en engineer (so pay will reflect this area). I'm split 50-50 on whether I want it. Pros of my current job: I've been here 8.5 years. I know what I'm doing and I enjoy it. I make about $92k which is a lot for what i do and where I live I love the people I work with. We're all close, we hang out outside of work, we all know each others wives and kids. Reviews are coming soon, so (I'm assuming) a 3% COL raise Being about the only person that isn't a moron, could eventually get a management position (unless I'm fired before then for 'being too critical, as my boss has told me) Cons of my current job: When I started here, they were trending towards automotive engineering. They're turning hard towards the RV mentality lately. Engineering isn't valued here. Like, at all. Other departments go aorund us and it's OK. Management is an absolute joke and nobody has any faith in them. My own boss is an utter moron and acts like a child more often than not I don't know what I do anymore - everything I'm assigned is verbal and nobody in management will put anything in writing about anything. IT is a joke - nothing ever works. It's a daily struggle just for my software to function. Pros of potential new job: Tier 1 supplier, real automotive engineering (which I used to do) good experience, will learn new things Closer to work (about 8 miles vs 25 miles) Travel (Mexico, Europe, China) Company itself has been around for ~150 years (designing various things over the years) Cons of potential new job: Would almost certainly be a pay cut (the recruiter mentioned $85k was likely) smaller engineering team, smaller team locally, not sure about advancement opportunities New job, new people, change in general is not fun A few years ago the company closed its local manufacturing facilities, cutting over a hundred jobs Not sure about the benefits yet Sorry if this is kind of vague, I don't know how many details I want to provide... basically I like the people I work with but management is so toxic it's awful. I'd kind of like to travel and learn new things (both of which the new job would provide) but at a pay cut, probably almost 10%. I don't want to get too comfortable or anything, be afraid to venture outside my comfort zone... but I don't want to harm my career. I'm kind of at a fork in the road. As an engineer, the 'engineering' we do here is abysmal and embarrassing. But as a person, I don't hate coming in to work and doing whatever it is I do. I don't have an actual offer yet, but I'm told I'm the 'top candidate' right now (maybe they tell everybody that?) and I just don't know what I would do or should do if they make an offer. CornHolio fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Feb 25, 2021 |
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Feb 25, 2021 14:11
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