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Disargeria posted:I would like to experiment with something like this for a future game. I know I'm missing a lot of DnD context for how Druids work but a lot of shapeshifters in other RPGs have figured out ways to create a wide variety of viability while also balancing the opportunity costs and the obvious advantages of having so much flexibility. There are a handful of extremely good shapes, that are the ones you use, and a few you might use for very specific scenarios. If you've played with one Moon Druid that doesn't gimp themselves it seems like you've pretty much played them all. Having tried the the new Ranger Beastmaster for a couple of sessions, the ability to pick an archetype and theme it is a way, way, way better system than the CR one.
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Jan 20, 2021 16:20
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One of my co-players is determined to take some ranger levels, and I don't want to step on his character concept but I also want to make clear that 3.5's mix & match approach doesn't work nearly as well in 5e as it did before. The best way I've found so far is when he's talking about abilities, is pointing out that they are based on your class level, so while me and the druid are going to be rocking abilities scaled to sixth level, he'll be picking from a large selection of level 3 abilities he can't effectively mix and match because of turn limitations. Or have I got that wrong?
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Jan 20, 2021 16:31
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Bobby Deluxe posted:One of my co-players is determined to take some ranger levels, and I don't want to step on his character concept but I also want to make clear that 3.5's mix & match approach doesn't work nearly as well in 5e as it did before. It depends on how and what he is doing....going five levels of fighter and then picking up 3 levels of ranger to get gloomstalker is actually very powerful. It really depends on his base class and what exact multiclass he is dipping into.
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Jan 20, 2021 16:34
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Bobby Deluxe posted:One of my co-players is determined to take some ranger levels, and I don't want to step on his character concept but I also want to make clear that 3.5's mix & match approach doesn't work nearly as well in 5e as it did before. Ranger dips are usually really good, especially the hunter options at level 3. If they have the actions/bonus actions to fill in, I don't see why not?
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Jan 20, 2021 16:34
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Bobby Deluxe posted:3.5's mix & match approach doesn't work nearly as well in 5e as it did before. Saying 3.5 multiclassing worked is being very generous
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Jan 20, 2021 17:13
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Ok, if you planned very carefully in advance you could make it work. Madmarker posted:It depends on how and what he is doing....going five levels of fighter and then picking up 3 levels of ranger to get gloomstalker is actually very powerful. It really depends on his base class and what exact multiclass he is dipping into. Essentially he's going to be level 3 with extra options by the time we're all level 6.
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Jan 20, 2021 17:15
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Ok, if you planned very carefully in advance you could make it work. Splicer fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Jan 20, 2021 |
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Jan 20, 2021 17:35
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Oof, that is a really bad combination of classes, and it's going to make balancing anything for your group a huge pain for your DM. You should definitely try to talk them out of it. If he really just wants the beast companion, maybe you can convince your DM to homebrew a feat that the player can take at 4th level that gives them the Ranger's Companion feature. Or you can point out that, if they stick with Warlock, they can summon a lesser demon/fey/shadowspawn/undead at level 3. Maybe the DM can tweak those spells to function closer to what the player wants to accomplish? Maybe suggest to the DM that, if the player has a familiar, your group can reflavor the summoning spells as empowering the familiar and giving it a more powerful form.
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Jan 20, 2021 18:14
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Yeah, that specific combination of warlock and ranger levels sounds like they could end up feeling underpowered compared to other players. A pet scaling on Wisdom and ranger level, and Pact of the Blade scaling off Cha/Dex/Str is not a great combo. Going 3 warlock/3 ranger also delays their Extra Attack until level 8, assuming they're not interested in Eldritch Blasting (which scales off of total character level). If someone wants to blend the two classes effectively, 5 Gloomstalker/3 Hexblade or 5 Hexblade/3 Gloomstalker work really well. Everything but ranger spells are keyed off Cha, and you have the option to cheese it out with a pact handbow, Crossbow Expert and Sharp Shooter. If they want to blend Beastmaster with Pact of the Blade, then you'd want to start the build with 5 Beastmaster, then dip 3 warlock before adding more ranger levels for pet health. Sticking to a few warlock spells that don't need a good DC is okay, then they can focus on Wis and Str/Dex stats. Given they're already 3 Warlock, unless they are 100% adamant they must have Ranger levels, I would see if the DM is okay with them having the Summon Beast spell from Tasha's. Like Tenik said, they get a number of other summons at 5 Warlock (which could be reflavoured), but if they like the Primal Companion from Tasha's then Summon Beast is pretty close, and scales with spell level and Cha. A dedicated Beastmaster pet will outscale it, but that's like level 14+ so realistically not a worry.
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Jan 20, 2021 19:57
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What is it that the player really wants from Pact of the Blade, anyway? Because if they want to combine a melee Warlock with a pet it seems like the easier way to do that would be taking Hexblade as a patron and the Pact of the Chain as their boon. If Pact of the Blade is thematically essential to what they're going for they're probably better off reflavoring the summoning spells from Tasha's rather than trying to multiclass into Ranger. In general you don't want to start multiclassing until after level 5, since that's when most classes see a significant power boost.
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Jan 20, 2021 23:05
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KingKalamari posted:What is it that the player really wants from Pact of the Blade, anyway? Because if they want to combine a melee Warlock with a pet it seems like the easier way to do that would be taking Hexblade as a patron and the Pact of the Chain as their boon. If Pact of the Blade is thematically essential to what they're going for they're probably better off reflavoring the summoning spells from Tasha's rather than trying to multiclass into Ranger. In general you don't want to start multiclassing until after level 5, since that's when most classes see a significant power boost. Yeah, I'd really want to know what they think they are getting (either narratively or mechanically) from this. Just getting find familiar as a spell from a feat would be enough to get what they are after for example if they really want Pact of the Blade (I assume they are Hexblades?) Just like 3.5, 5e multiclassing will quickly make your character worthless mechanically if you're not sure what you are a class that focues on making attack rolls (which both warlock and ranger is) you really need to hit that Extra Attack check point asap or else you lag behind fast.
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Jan 20, 2021 23:32
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I think they're going to be narratively led primarily. Hexblade because their backstory is they found a sword in a tomb, and to use CHA with the sword. Pact of the blade also because of the sword, I guess, and the improved pact weapon invocation. Stats are 16 cha, 14 dex & con, 12 wis,10 int, 8 str. No idea why he wants ranger, but he has expressed to the DM that he wants an animal companion for combat. Honestly I think he's throwing it in there because he was undecided between Warlock and Ranger, and he's more used to 3.5 style multiclassing. I don't really want to tell them how to build their character, but I do want to give them fair warning if they're about to step off a cliff, build wise.
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Jan 21, 2021 04:16
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To be honest, two levels of Warlock can probably keep up with most of the other classes in the game regardless of what else they pick. Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast is the definition of a top-tier scalable blaster ability and it doesn't matter what else they get. If they take a third level to get the pact, they can also throw in Darkness and pair it with Devil's Sight and they'll be a persistent thorn in the DM's side for the rest of the game no matter how many levels in Ranger that they end up with.
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Jan 21, 2021 04:28
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I think they're going to be narratively led primarily. Hexblade because their backstory is they found a sword in a tomb, and to use CHA with the sword. Pact of the blade also because of the sword, I guess, and the improved pact weapon invocation. It sounds like he's almost strategically trying to avoid all the mechanically useful bits of a class for as long as possible. Seriously though, that plan goes beyond being merely being used to 3.5 and makes me question whether there's some fundamental misunderstanding of how going into Ranger would actually work in practice. That plan might pay off at, what, level 8? Until then, unless I'm missing something, he's going to be doing damage like he's level 3 all the way through level 7. Like, does he think that when he hits level 6 (Warlock 3/Ranger 3) that his animal companion will be the same as if he was Ranger 6 or some poo poo? If he wants an animal companion for narrative reasons, that's something else, but that build is so ill-considered that if I were the DM, I'd be tempted to tell him he can't do it on the grounds that not only will it require more work to properly balance encounters around him being useless, he's not going to have a lot of fun when everyone else is smacking poo poo with swords and spells and he's doing the D&D equivalent of beating on things with a pool noodle.
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Jan 21, 2021 05:57
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I think they're going to be narratively led primarily. Hexblade because their backstory is they found a sword in a tomb, and to use CHA with the sword. Pact of the blade also because of the sword, I guess, and the improved pact weapon invocation. RAW this guy doesn't have the wisdom to multi into ranger. It's a bit of a "cheap" way to steer him away from the idea, but it's a reason you could use.
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Jan 21, 2021 06:22
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Had my second session DMing last night running LMoP. Things that went well included the players coming up with non-combat ways to solve problems. They were able to bypass the wolves in the first room in the Cragmaw Hideout by giving them some food and using Animal Handling. The Wizard cast a bat familiar before entering the hideout to use for scouting which worked really well. I didn't see any reason that the bat couldn't continuously scout ahead for them and report the location of creatures but I will have to come up with some ways to make this not feasible for other dungeons. Otherwise they could scout pretty much anything where there were common creatures around (bats, rats, squirrels). Would be interested in hearing how other DMs handle this. This is probably expected for the first dungeon they are going through, but it was painfully slow. There isn't a player who has taken on the leadership role because everyone is so new to this, but that made them very hesitant to suggest actions and make decisions. There are probably some things I could have done to force action and drive things forward better. I think next time they are spending too long in one place, I am going to have enemies surprise and attack them. Any other general suggestions on moving the story forward would be helpful. The other reason things went slow was because their combat rolls were awful the whole night. We're talking like 4 people in a row completely whiffing on their attack rolls or rolling the minimum damage when they did hit. I think there was some frustration with this and one person even missed their attack roll on a sleeping goblin lol. I would also like to know if there are any ways I can encourage our Druid to stop using melee attacks or throwing attacks and start using some of his offensive cantrips / spells. It seems like every fight he just wants to attack with his scimitar or throw the magic pebbles he created and since his attack bonus is not great, he often misses. He hasn't cast Entangle or any damage dealing spell yet and I feel like he is going to hate his druid if he keeps this up. Maybe this one time I can give him the option to prepare different spells at the beginning of the next session?
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Jan 22, 2021 19:12
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MrSargent posted:Would be interested in hearing how other DMs handle this. quote:I would also like to know if there are any ways I can encourage our Druid to stop using melee attacks or throwing attacks and start using some of his offensive cantrips / spells. It seems like every fight he just wants to attack with his scimitar or throw the magic pebbles he created and since his attack bonus is not great, he often misses. He hasn't cast Entangle or any damage dealing spell yet and I feel like he is going to hate his druid if he keeps this up. Maybe this one time I can give him the option to prepare different spells at the beginning of the next session? Have you asked them why they're using their scimitar / Magic Stone? What about that appeals to them instead of casting spells/attack cantrips? Maybe you can work with them to re-flavor their spells into something they'd find more appealing. Druids are kind of a weird class, in that they're full casters but with some degree of encouragement to get on the front lines and mix it up. Their spells also often have not-very-straightforward effects which can make them tricky to use effectively for a newbie. If I were going to hand a newbie a, let's say level 3 druid, I'd prep their spell list as: Cantrips: Frostbite, Shillelagh or Mending Level 1 spells: Healing Word, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Thunderwave (or Ice Knife) Level 2 spells: Moonbeam, Spike Growth (god, so many second-level spells require concentration...)
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Jan 22, 2021 19:34
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MrSargent posted:I would also like to know if there are any ways I can encourage our Druid to stop using melee attacks or throwing attacks and start using some of his offensive cantrips / spells. It seems like every fight he just wants to attack with his scimitar or throw the magic pebbles he created and since his attack bonus is not great, he often misses. He hasn't cast Entangle or any damage dealing spell yet and I feel like he is going to hate his druid if he keeps this up. Maybe this one time I can give him the option to prepare different spells at the beginning of the next session? What level are they? Often newer players to casters can be very reticent to use their spells because it feels so limited and are saving the spell for when they WILL need it, kind of like how some people stock 99 of every healing item in jrpgs. It should mitigate over time, but letting the players know how many combats they can expect per long rest (in general) can also help. You can also ask what spells the druid has prepared and if you think a particular spell would be very helpful, lets say faerie fire, you can do this little trick. When the players encounter an enemy, lets say a group of quasits, you can just ask the players, "Are any of you proficient in religion or arcana?" Someone likely is, ask them to make a roll, and if they meet lets say a DC 10, tell that player that in their studies they learned that Quasit's like to turn invisible and spells like faerie fire are really useful against them. Yes you just told them what spell to cast, but because you forced a roll that relies on a skill a player choose to be proficient in, it feels more like they achieved something because of who they are as a character, not that the DM just gave them info.
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Jan 22, 2021 20:32
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Familiars die very easily, and the components to recast the spell aren't free, which in turn implies that you can control access to them. All you really need to do is make it so the wizard can't build up a colossal stock of components, and periodically have creatures notice the familiar and maybe take potshots at it. Most players will then get paranoid about risking their familiar and be more cautious about having it scout for them. That's a good idea. I think in this instance, the goblins in the cave wouldn't give a second thought to a bat flying around so using it to scout ahead seemed like a trivial action. But in other situations it would be risky. quote:Have you asked them why they're using their scimitar / Magic Stone? What about that appeals to them instead of casting spells/attack cantrips? Maybe you can work with them to re-flavor their spells into something they'd find more appealing. I was planning on asking them this but wanted to provide them with some spell suggestions so I appreciate those. One thing I noticed that seems really odd is that druids get proficiency in a lot of weapons, and with his +3 dexterity modifier this makes his attack bonus with a scimitar +5 (higher than his spell attack bonus) and the damage is 1d6+3. That seems really high for a spellcasting class and might have something to do with him using that over casting spells. The players are all level 1 right now and will be level 2 once completing this dungeon.
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Jan 22, 2021 20:50
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MrSargent posted:I would also like to know if there are any ways I can encourage our Druid to stop using melee attacks or throwing attacks and start using some of his offensive cantrips / spells. It seems like every fight he just wants to attack with his scimitar or throw the magic pebbles he created and since his attack bonus is not great, he often misses. He hasn't cast Entangle or any damage dealing spell yet and I feel like he is going to hate his druid if he keeps this up. Maybe this one time I can give him the option to prepare different spells at the beginning of the next session? Here are several options that you can do: - Seek first to understand. If your druid player is mis-calibrated on mechanics it's 100% okay to talk with them out of character about their capabilities. They might have holdovers because they have a very specific concept for the character or world view that influences their decisions. - Show, not tell. Put the druid player in circumstances where they need to use their magic because their normal methods are ineffective. - Tell, not show. Have a buddy druid show up that provides in-narrative recommendations or gives encouragement to the druid player. - Raise stakes slowly. Use video game tutorial logic here and softball situations where the 'answer' is using Entangle or whatnot for the druid. Make it clear that it's their time to shine and encourage them to use their character sheet. - Raise stakes quickly. Maybe the druid is not in a situation where they feel their spells are useful, so give them the opportunity to go 'all-out' by beating the crap out of them. If they are running out of ideas or getting frustrated, then help them out by being a fan of the players. - Seek last to understand. At the end of a session, take the time intentionally to discuss with the players how that session went, how it felt, particularly from a combat perspective. Let them know your thought process for setting up and running the encounter and give them the context so they can learn for future play. If a player is running their character in a way that doesn't line up with your expectations, you may also want to just let it ride and focus on something else. If you cannot stand for having this kind of play in your game though, then fall back on the techniques discussed here and likely coming later. Keep in mind you are working with beginners, of which you yourself may be one if this is your second session ever DMing. quote:Things that went well included the players coming up with non-combat ways to solve problems. They were able to bypass the wolves in the first room in the Cragmaw Hideout by giving them some food and using Animal Handling. The Wizard cast a bat familiar before entering the hideout to use for scouting which worked really well. I didn't see any reason that the bat couldn't continuously scout ahead for them and report the location of creatures but I will have to come up with some ways to make this not feasible for other dungeons. Otherwise they could scout pretty much anything where there were common creatures around (bats, rats, squirrels). Would be interested in hearing how other DMs handle this. Remember that familiars are not invincible and leverage the narrative to let them know when they've extended their bounds. Probabilistically a bat in a place where there are no bats is going to stick out when it's flying around, and maybe a patrolling monster decides to have a quick snack after revealing something important. This rewards intelligent play but also provides a boundary that makes sense in narrative as a compromise. If it's a creature common to the environment then be deliberate about providing details from the creature's point of view. Things look very different when you are 1/20 your size or have a field of view that's different from what we know. Just because there are no mechanical techniques in the system itself doesn't necessarily mean you can't get creative from the GM standpoint. For me, I would provide what a bat brain can process and send back via the familiar link. Information is almost never perfect when delivered back, and descriptions may be muddled depending on what kind of bat we are talking about (the phrase "blind as a bat" comes to mind, here). You don't need to be mean about it, but if you provide some reasonable framework it will remove over-reliance on the same thing.
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Jan 22, 2021 20:55
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MrSargent posted:I would also like to know if there are any ways I can encourage our Druid to stop using melee attacks or throwing attacks and start using some of his offensive cantrips / spells. It seems like every fight he just wants to attack with his scimitar or throw the magic pebbles he created and since his attack bonus is not great, he often misses. He hasn't cast Entangle or any damage dealing spell yet and I feel like he is going to hate his druid if he keeps this up. Maybe this one time I can give him the option to prepare different spells at the beginning of the next session? If I was wildly guessing I'd say he wanted to play a Ranger but was (accurately) told that Rangers are bad and Druids are great and now he's trying to play Ranger with a Druid. e: MrSargent posted:I was planning on asking them this but wanted to provide them with some spell suggestions so I appreciate those. One thing I noticed that seems really odd is that druids get proficiency in a lot of weapons, and with his +3 dexterity modifier this makes his attack bonus with a scimitar +5 (higher than his spell attack bonus) and the damage is 1d6+3. That seems really high for a spellcasting class and might have something to do with him using that over casting spells. Splicer fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 21:09
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MrSargent posted:I was planning on asking them this but wanted to provide them with some spell suggestions so I appreciate those. One thing I noticed that seems really odd is that druids get proficiency in a lot of weapons, and with his +3 dexterity modifier this makes his attack bonus with a scimitar +5 (higher than his spell attack bonus) and the damage is 1d6+3. That seems really high for a spellcasting class and might have something to do with him using that over casting spells. It sounds like the player's actually making reasonable decisions for level 1. They looked at the numbers for their spells and attacks and correctly noted that they do more damage in melee than with magic. Level 1 play is not really the norm though, so I'd only really be concerned if they continue to avoid using spells as they level up. It might be worth reviewing the concept of the action economy, so you can point out that e.g. an Entangled goblin effectively loses their turn because they can't move to get into melee (and even if they break free, that costs their action so they can't attack). The fewer actions the enemy gets, the easier the fight is.
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Jan 22, 2021 21:13
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aldantefax posted:Here are several options that you can do: I tried to do my best with describing what the bat "sees" through echo-location but I will be honest this was hard to do lol. All of the suggestions you had for our druid are great and I will definitely try to have a discussion with him. I don't want to tell him how to play his character, I just felt like if that is the style he is going for he is going to be pretty disappointed as he levels up. One thing I added in my second post that people may not have seen is the following: I noticed something that seems a bit odd from his character sheet. Druids get proficiency in a lot of weapons, and with his +3 dexterity modifier this makes his attack bonus with a scimitar +5 (higher than his spell attack bonus) and the damage is 1d6+3 which is a good deal higher than his spell . I didn't realize until later that he could have put the halfling's +2 dexterity into wisdom instead so I may give him the opportunity to move his ability points around a bit which would give him a lot more incentive to cast. I am definitely going to send him some more information on useful cantrips / 1st level spells that he might enjoy using. TooMuchAbstraction posted:It sounds like the player's actually making reasonable decisions for level 1. They looked at the numbers for their spells and attacks and correctly noted that they do more damage in melee than with magic. Level 1 play is not really the norm though, so I'd only really be concerned if they continue to avoid using spells as they level up. Yah that's a good point. I think I am going to give him the option to redo his ability scores with the origin ability score. MrSargent fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 21:20
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MrSargent posted:Things that went well included the players coming up with non-combat ways to solve problems. They were able to bypass the wolves in the first room in the Cragmaw Hideout by giving them some food and using Animal Handling. The Wizard cast a bat familiar before entering the hideout to use for scouting which worked really well. I didn't see any reason that the bat couldn't continuously scout ahead for them and report the location of creatures but I will have to come up with some ways to make this not feasible for other dungeons. Otherwise they could scout pretty much anything where there were common creatures around (bats, rats, squirrels). Would be interested in hearing how other DMs handle this. First though, have a good think about why this is an issue for you. I'm not saying there's no good reason! It's just useful to have it solidly in your mind what problem this is causing for you, or what problem you're worried about, or if it's just a gut feeling. Once you have that in mind and can properly articulate to yourself why it's bothering you, and if you still think it's a good reason then it's much easier to mitigate a concrete problem over a vague feeling. If your problem is just that it takes too much time you can establish that they can just say "we're bat scouting" and you'll hand them an appropriate quality description of a chunk of the area rather than doing a full one-on-one scouting encounter with the Wizard. If you're worried it's trivialising an important part of the game there's in-game ways to limit the utility without taking away their fun. Keep in mind a familiar is a "celestial, fey, or fiend" and there's a bunch of bad guys that can tell the difference. Also sometimes things eat bats, or other bats might object to this weird bat showing up. Don't jump straight to anything that could be considered punitive, a bit of a scare is better than an outright attack. "The bat flies into a room full of goblins. One of them is wearing feathers and carrying a skull staff. *noisily roll a hidden die* the one with feathers looks at your bat is it goes by, then shakes his head as if dismissing something" "There is a flurry of squeaking from above and other bats come down to drive you off. It's very loud." The best story results are usually success with consequences. "You scout out the area BUT <enemy> is now a bit antsy" is a good tradeoff. At the same time you don't want to make them feel like they have to micro manage the bat more. My suggestion, have a sit down and explain your concerns, then give them two "modes" they can activate scoutbat. They can "activate bat" to receive an immediate rundown of the viable area, and you promise to only impose minor consequences or omissions and only if you think they will enhance the story. Or they can micro the bat, but the gloves are off when it comes to missing stuff or getting oneshot by suspicious orcs, and ask them to please save the second one for special occasions. MrSargent posted:This is probably expected for the first dungeon they are going through, but it was painfully slow. There isn't a player who has taken on the leadership role because everyone is so new to this, but that made them very hesitant to suggest actions and make decisions. There are probably some things I could have done to force action and drive things forward better. I think next time they are spending too long in one place, I am going to have enemies surprise and attack them. Any other general suggestions on moving the story forward would be helpful. The other reason things went slow was because their combat rolls were awful the whole night. We're talking like 4 people in a row completely whiffing on their attack rolls or rolling the minimum damage when they did hit. I think there was some frustration with this and one person even missed their attack roll on a sleeping goblin lol.
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Jan 22, 2021 22:15
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Splicer posted:First though, have a good think about why this is an issue for you. My worry is that it would trivialize the dungeon / area if they could scout the whole thing with very little consequence. I love your ideas though of other bats in the cave driving it off because they recognize it isn't one of them, or a predator taking notice of it. This definitely gives me some ideas to play with so that there is still some tension or they need to look into other ways to scout. quote:Are they spending too much IC time or OOC time? Like are they spending several in-game hours sitting in a room or spending several real-world hours talking about leaving the room? If the latter then dropping a bunch of monsters on them might not be the best route to keep things moving, but if the former heck yeah someone probably sleeps in that room. They were spending a lot of time discussing various options for how to proceed so a combination of the two. In one example, the bat had scouted the next room and identified that there were 4 creatures in the room. It took a good 20 minutes (real time) before they moved into the room and started to attack despite the fact that they outnumbered the enemy and could be pretty certain it was an easy encounter. I was being pretty lenient with giving them this time because they are still getting used to the idea of having so much freedom and using their skills to solve problems. I think for next time I am definitely going to introduce some consequences to hanging out in one place having a lengthy discussion but don't want to be too punitive. I ended up talking to the druid and we had a great discussion about how he intends to play them as more of a supporting role than a direct damage caster, but felt like he was contributing way more with his scimitar. I am going to let him move his racial bonus and switch his dex / con scores since he didn't really know how important constitution is to concentration casting. I really appreciate the help and advice you all have given. Really gives me some great ideas to consider for our next session. The good news is that everyone seems to be having a lot of fun with it and I think it has even surprised a few of them with how much they enjoy it.
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Jan 22, 2021 22:53
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MrSargent posted:I ended up talking to the druid and we had a great discussion about how he intends to play them as more of a supporting role than a direct damage caster, but felt like he was contributing way more with his scimitar. I am going to let him move his racial bonus and switch his dex / con scores since he didn't really know how important constitution is to concentration casting. I really appreciate the help and advice you all have given. Really gives me some great ideas to consider for our next session. The good news is that everyone seems to be having a lot of fun with it and I think it has even surprised a few of them with how much they enjoy it. e: Option 3: Shillelagh for both! MrSargent posted:They were spending a lot of time discussing various options for how to proceed so a combination of the two. In one example, the bat had scouted the next room and identified that there were 4 creatures in the room. It took a good 20 minutes (real time) before they moved into the room and started to attack despite the fact that they outnumbered the enemy and could be pretty certain it was an easy encounter. I was being pretty lenient with giving them this time because they are still getting used to the idea of having so much freedom and using their skills to solve problems. I think for next time I am definitely going to introduce some consequences to hanging out in one place having a lengthy discussion but don't want to be too punitive. Splicer fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 23:37
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Sounds like you've got the situation handled. If you want to give the player a few hints about using other druid abilities, I believe there's a druidic NPC somewhere in that adventure. Having an ally demonstrate the effectiveness of something like Entangle or Spike Growth can be a subtle way of insert a class tutorial without feeling like you're telling someone what they should be doing.
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Jan 23, 2021 01:49
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MrSargent posted:My worry is that it would trivialize the dungeon / area if they could scout the whole thing with very little consequence. it's probably obvious but just gonna throw in here that bats can't open doors. Or fly through curtains, dividers, etc. and might see closely-set bars as too much of an obstacle. Also echolocation could be thrown off by some surfaces, such as: thickly grown fungus, sheets of running water, walls crawling with thousands of insects, spider webs, magic force fields, etc. If you do too much of that you're just screwing with a player without telling them why, of course, which is not good, but I think if in a large cave complex there were ~2 rooms that were confusing for the bat, 1 that is actively hazardous, and one region/zone that is entirely closed off due to a partition it can't or won't fly through, that'd be reasonable, while still leaving what, two thirds to three quarters of the space open to scouting reasonably so the PCs don't feel like they're being penalized for cleverness.
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Jan 23, 2021 05:14
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My tip about scouting is to largely do it in the theater of mind, rather than revealing anything on a gridded map. That way one player isn't running the show for all the exploration, and there's still an opportunity for some surprises without having to actively attack scouts. I want to be able to support scouting (whether of the tiny familiar or stealthy explorer variety) and reward that activity, but to be honest it mostly tends to slow down the game and split up the party a lot.
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Jan 23, 2021 05:53
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MrSargent posted:My worry is that it would trivialize the dungeon / area if they could scout the whole thing with very little consequence. I love your ideas though of other bats in the cave driving it off because they recognize it isn't one of them, or a predator taking notice of it. This definitely gives me some ideas to play with so that there is still some tension or they need to look into other ways to scout. It probably won't trivialize anything in most cases. I had character with a bat familiar in a Curse of Strahd game that explored at least half of Strahd's castle for me, spoiling precisely zero encounters or surprises as a result, but still gave enough tantalizing clues to be satisfying, partly because the DM and I were clear on the bat's ability to recognize and communicate things. As pointed out, bats can't open doors, etc. Also, looking through the bats eyes or communicating with it telepathically has a range limit. Past that limit, what the bat can come back and report is limited by its intelligence and memory. It's not going to remember enough detail to give the party a nicely sketched map of the whole dungeon layout, and unless the caster can see through its eyes, it might report a room has a "giant reptile" in it, which could be dragon, a giant snake, a yuan-ti spellcaster, who knows? It won't recognize what's valuable or not (it might be able to tell you there's shiny metal bits), etc. Also if the bat dies past that telepathy range, your caster just has no idea what happened to it or how long to wait. They'll pretty much have to try recalling it whenever they get impatient, and if it doesn't return then, it got et and your caster has to redo the ritual before finding out whether it was eaten by a giant frog or disintegrated by an rear end in a top hat beholder. One of the things I struggle with in games I run is a lot of the time your characters have too little information, rather than too much, and consequently I tend to be relatively free with information from talkative NPCs, scouting familiars, divinations, etc. It makes up for all the times players missed something, weren't paying attention, forgot or I hosed up explaining something the first time. It has a double benefit of the players feeling rewarded for doing investigation as well as enabling them to make decisions that drive the plot forward. Edit: and you can have the bat trigger traps, too, like glyphs of warding. Base Emitter fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 06:04
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When my group started they also were quite slow and spent a lot of time just learning the ins and outs. Don't worry, they'll get better. With that said, my solution was to have the retired adventurer in Phandalin (Daran Edermath I think) give the group a worn and tarnished bronze ring. Daran tells the group that this ring is magical (he means metaphorically but the players don't know that), and it imbues the bearer with the power of leadership. He told them, back in his adventuring days, one of the greatest hurdles was not the monsters, traps, dungeons, or dragons, but simple decision making. Having no cooks in the kitchen is as bad as too many, he said. So, upon finding this ring, each in the party would take turns bearing the ring, and the ringbearer was deferred to to make a single decision, at which point the ring was passed to the next person. Anytime the party couldn't decide whether to go left, or go right, or stay and fight or whether to run, the bearer would decide. Criticism of bad decisions was tempered by knowing that your turn in the hot seat would come, and all eyes would be upon you. At the beginning of the adventure my players used this ring a lot. But now that they're more experienced, the decisions have become fewer and farther between, albeit no less impactful. It also gave quieter and more demurred players a chance to lead, which is a challenge for them but also fun (and the stakes aren't really TOO high). As for the familiar scouting, you could try to contest the familiar's perception vs. enemy stealth. And like mentioned, use theater of the mind. Also limit the echolocation range. Or, have enemies start doing rotations. If the scout says there are X mobs in the room, and the players discuss this at length, have things change depending on how long they spend deliberating. Trivia fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 07:06
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MrSargent posted:This is probably expected for the first dungeon they are going through, but it was painfully slow. There isn't a player who has taken on the leadership role because everyone is so new to this, but that made them very hesitant to suggest actions and make decisions. There are probably some things I could have done to force action and drive things forward better. I think next time they are spending too long in one place, I am going to have enemies surprise and attack them. Any other general suggestions on moving the story forward would be helpful. The other reason things went slow was because their combat rolls were awful the whole night. We're talking like 4 people in a row completely whiffing on their attack rolls or rolling the minimum damage when they did hit. I think there was some frustration with this and one person even missed their attack roll on a sleeping goblin lol. Take a page out of older editions of D&D and give one person the responsibility of being the Caller for the party, which is mostly a party leader, but for that session you can turn to them and go, "So, what's the party doing?" Your ideas regarding enemies getting the drop on them are a good idea. This is a good opportunity to consider adding wandering monster checks that the players themselves roll. If they tarry too long, it is likely they will run into something because they're bickering. The wandering monster check is a clear signal that they are taking a long time to go forward, similar to how putting a countdown timer in front of a player in a video game is. Also, a note regarding sleeping or otherwise helpless creatures, they are automatically hit. Bad combat rolls just happen, but combats need not always be to the death for either side. Goblins are cowards, but they aren't stupid - they are mechanically slippery to help reflect this (or you can interpret it differently if you like). If they feel like they have the upper hand, perhaps they will dogpile a player and make them think twice about trying to go through a losing fight. Not all encounters require rolls to hit, as an example: - Druid could Entangle and force *you* to make saving throws for your creatures - Wizard can Magic Missile - no roll to hit required there, it always hits - Fighter decides to use the terrain surrounding them, finds a boulder or something to roll at the goblins. Maybe an Athletics roll, but you can put it on a ledge as an unsprung goblin trap, so they can just kick it and a bunch of enemies eat a big rolling rock. - Rogue runs (no rolls required to disengage) to go find items to throw from a raided crate at your enemies. Oil? Grease? Weird bubbling potions? - Cleric tanks for the party and shouts at the goblins to attract their attention with some crafty roleplaying. No rolls required here if they sell it hard enough, and they can laugh as all the weak goblins have to roll with disadvantage against them. Anyway, you are just experiencing D&D. When you run into difficulties like this, don't consider them finalities and instead ask "how can I twist this into something interesting and fun for everybody"? Sometimes the dice are boring, so you have to make your own fun. That's the road to quality GM thinking.
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Jan 23, 2021 08:29
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MrSargent posted:They were spending a lot of time discussing various options for how to proceed so a combination of the two. In one example, the bat had scouted the next room and identified that there were 4 creatures in the room. It took a good 20 minutes (real time) before they moved into the room and started to attack despite the fact that they outnumbered the enemy and could be pretty certain it was an easy encounter. I was being pretty lenient with giving them this time because they are still getting used to the idea of having so much freedom and using their skills to solve problems. I think for next time I am definitely going to introduce some consequences to hanging out in one place having a lengthy discussion but don't want to be too punitive. I find this extremely boring when it happens in a game I'm playing in, and when I'm GMing it makes me want to just walk out. Just ask them to stop. Say it's boring for you. And make sure to let them know that they don't need to do this because not only is the adventure set up to be broadly fair to them, you will be making sure that absolutely none of the fights will be unexpectedly unfair. That last part is super important - if they can trust you that you're not going to drop a no-win-no-warning encounter on them, they will feel much less of a need to try to figure out every possible scenario and a risk-free response before they kick the door.
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Jan 23, 2021 09:03
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You all are great. Thank you so much for taking the time to give such detailed and thoughtful responses. This gives me a lot of things to think about and I think it’s only going to make for a better overall experience, for both the players and myself. I’ll definitely keep posting after each session since I am sure at least one thing will come up that I could use some advice on.
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Jan 23, 2021 09:24
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:
"I guarantee that, no matter which fighter kicks open this door, and no matter what crazy chain of Ready'd spells you put together, I'm going to do my best to make this game fun for everyone because that's why we're here" -Me, adding hidden spiders to the room.
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Jan 23, 2021 15:25
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:That last part is super important - if they can trust you that you're not going to drop a no-win-no-warning encounter on them, they will feel much less of a need to try to figure out every possible scenario and a risk-free response before they kick the door. Yeah this is a information-disparity issue. As a DM you know what's around the corner and have a plan (or the module does) for the overall difficulty for a given dungeon or situation. The players don't, and often act accordingly. Doing what Elector Nerdlingen said I think goes a long way to assuaging apprehension for the party. Tell them that any "unfair" situations or deaths will be solely on their decisions, and not a "because I said so" situation. I had a situation in Thundertree that quickly turned into a no-win situation (as I saw it) with my party. They parleyed with the cultists at the far end of town, and even got sweet-talked into treating with the dragon as a large group. I knew that the cultists would betray the party and offer them as a sacrifice at the first chance, and would fight with the dragon given the opportunity. I knew the dragon would use the cultists as best it could but saw them as ultimately expendable. However, given the setup, I saw that the party was doomed. I asked a lot of friends who were DMs about possible "outs" for the party, and they said to drop hints, foreshadowing, and other clues to make them think twice. I reminded them about spells they had (augury) and other clues from Reidoth the druid. Thankfully they did heed the warnings, but I had decided that if they proceeded despite these warnings I'd probably wipe them. I figured at that point they deserved it.
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Jan 23, 2021 16:29
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I'd say there's good argument to let them fail as well on their own merits, however. In addition, sometimes the party does in fact stumble into something they have no chance of defeating. But that happens more often with more open games rather than adventures, unless the adventure is about escaping something. Players really ought to know when to run.
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Jan 23, 2021 16:56
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Also, if you haven't already, start brainstorming ways to introduce new characters SHOULD someone die. Maybe also prompt players to think about a second character, to prime them and take some of the bite out of dying. I think I've already posted this, but in my first session I killed a player because of some lucky rolls and general ignorance of the game. Klarg surprised and crit'ed a squishy player (warlock). The guy who died had already thought of another character before that so it wasn't a big loss, but I had to scramble to think of a way to add him into the game (I ended up putting him in the same room as Sildar).
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Jan 23, 2021 17:03
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aldantefax posted:Also, a note regarding sleeping or otherwise helpless creatures, they are automatically hit. Wanted to follow up on this because from reading the Unconscious condition, it says attack rolls have advantage, not that the automatically hit. If a hit lands though, it is an automatic critical. Is this the correct interpretation? Since all of my players (and myself) are brand new to D&D and this is really the first dungeon they are going through, I don't think I am going to let anyone die yet. I just think that could exacerbate the problem of them being over-cautious with every action they take. Now I could definitely see someone getting knocked unconscious and I think that could definitely add a lot of tension without it being permanent.
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Jan 23, 2021 18:18
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| # ? May 31, 2024 17:48 |
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I was looking at wall of water, is there a spell to summon a solid cube of water to try to drown a armoured enemy?
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Jan 23, 2021 18:31
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