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the monster train unlocks are really good. it onboards you well for a game that normally depends on having a bunch of non-transferable knowledge, but the unlocks come fast enough that you have new things to try every game until you have everything. if this is condescending then I think monster train has the ideal amount of condescension
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Jan 19, 2021 02:39
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FTL does a lot of things right. It has difficulty modes and its meta progression is fun because you are unlocking variety. I also like the ship goals being weird ways to take a run rather than just beating it with the ship or whatever. No surprise then that ITB does it great as well. See a Spelunky feeling game with greater breadth of options rather than an insane challenge course for streamers would've been amazing. They had a way to implement it with the alternative paths but rather than the side content being to the side it's just globbed on top of an already overlong run length. Turin Turambar posted:Well, you don't really need metaprogression. You just need a difficulty selector. Like thousands of games had for the last decades. That'd work for me but there's a contingent who loses their mind about the idea of difficulty levels in a From Software/hardcore roguelike/whatever. You lose the purity of the experience if all players don't have to git gud to the same level.
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Jan 19, 2021 02:40
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difficulty levels are fine but it's also fine for a game to just expect you to rise to its level, and deciding which one it's going to be is pretty much a question of the creator's vision -- as it should be. there's no moral imperative towards either approach and implying one in either direction is equally ridiculous
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Jan 19, 2021 02:43
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Gay Rat Wedding posted:the monster train unlocks are really good. it onboards you well for a game that normally depends on having a bunch of non-transferable knowledge, but the unlocks come fast enough that you have new things to try every game until you have everything. if this is condescending then I think monster train has the ideal amount of condescension Yeah, I agree with this. Some of the folks in here can be weirdly hardline about certain game design elements, but it wouldn't be a proper roguelikes thread if we weren't all being grognards about something or other  Anyway Monster Train slaps. I enjoy getting the covenant levels and making the cards become shiny. Earlier today I played a Transcendimp that very nearly crashed the game and then rocketed everything on its floor to over 500 attack power thanks to hundreds of stacks of rage. "This is a good game," I thought to myself, as the screen chugged and stuttered while a zillion numbers appeared above my units
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Jan 19, 2021 06:58
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FuzzySlippers posted:FTL does a lot of things right. It has difficulty modes and its meta progression is fun because you are unlocking variety. I also like the ship goals being weird ways to take a run rather than just beating it with the ship or whatever. No surprise then that ITB does it great as well. I have to say that I really dislike how FTL tied unlocking new ships to random quests that you might just never encounter.
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Jan 19, 2021 07:25
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They changed that, the ships are now really easy to unlock. I preferred it the old way (which kinda what kicked off this derail, kinda), but I acknowledge some of them where really drat hard to find.
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Jan 19, 2021 07:35
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Some of the FTL unlocks were hidden behind run-sabotaging stuff.
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Jan 19, 2021 10:44
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Serephina posted:I mean, you're describing 'bad' metaprogression there megane. The 'good' stuff is basically just playing the game, and new content is rapidly added about as fast as the player can handle it.
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Jan 19, 2021 11:01
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I honestly just don't get the covenant system in Monster Train. Slay the Spire accessions just seem to work better and like the deadweight card thing just kinda annoys me, it just doesn't feel like an interesting choice to add.
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Jan 19, 2021 11:12
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I just started to play Spelunky. I wonder, what's the average number of runs people need to go beyond level 1-3? Because man I'm bad at this...
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Jan 19, 2021 11:39
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IronicDongz posted:The thing is, different players can handle new content at completely different rates from one another. I heartily agree! Maybe there could be some sort of system that unlocks new stuff at different rates based on the player's performance, either a through customized checkpoint system, or maybe more simply a blunt currency that's awarded for generic progress that can be used to unlock things of their choice... Turin Turambar posted:I just started to play Spelunky. I wonder, what's the average number of runs people need to go beyond level 1-3? Because man I'm bad at this... It's a steep, steep ladder at first. Getting into the right mindset while also being comfortable with the controls takes a bit of practice. Actual knowledge of the threats is only half the battle, the other half is mechanics. It probably takes about the same amount of time to consistently get to 2-1 than it does to then get to 4-1. Serephina fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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Jan 19, 2021 13:19
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God this argument has been hashed out so many loving times in this thread. Some people think that the only permissible 'metaprogression' is experience and learning, other people like the warm bath method of easing you in before adding more hot water, and some people just wanna enjoy the RPG-esque process of going from feeble to Goku strong as the game matches pace. They're all flavours of roguelike now, there's no right answer - it's personal preference.
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Jan 19, 2021 13:34
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Hows about a middle ground with the metaprogession unlocks - make it a toggleable menu item, colour in unearned meta items with a darker colour/ asterisk those items, to make it clear what is left to unlock. That way progress is tracked, it can be reverted, and you can dip into the unlocked version of you want to see the endgame items without permanently messing up actual progression.
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Jan 19, 2021 13:54
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Serephina posted:I heartily agree! Maybe there could be some sort of system that unlocks new stuff at different rates based on the player's performance, either a through customized checkpoint system, or maybe more simply a blunt currency that's awarded for generic progress that can be used to unlock things of their choice... And that's if unlocks are all sidegrades/options of playing and don't affect difficulty(significantly), if they do it's way worse. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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Jan 19, 2021 14:13
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Easy way to 'solve' metaprogression: Just put a button in the option labeled 'Unlock basics' that unlocks everything a player would have after several hours of playing. Once the player has those basics, turn it in to a 'unlock everything' button. If you don't want players to use the button for some reason, just make them hold the button down for 30 seconds so it's annoying to use it
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Jan 19, 2021 17:32
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Playing Dungeonmans and I've now lost two heroes in a row to the same goddamn boss, some rear end in a top hat called Gatekeeper Gurlak, and in the exact same way: a rush attack that kills me in one hit, despite being full health and with buffs up. I am frustrated enough that I might actually dig up my save file from my backup drive, which is from this morning, even though that's cheaty as gently caress. I liked this hero, though.
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Jan 19, 2021 18:16
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Glare Seethe posted:Playing Dungeonmans and I've now lost two heroes in a row to the same goddamn boss, some rear end in a top hat called Gatekeeper Gurlak, and in the exact same way: a rush attack that kills me in one hit, despite being full health and with buffs up. I am frustrated enough that I might actually dig up my save file from my backup drive, which is from this morning, even though that's cheaty as gently caress. I liked this hero, though. The spear guy in the last dungeon? He’s definitely the spookiest boss in the game.
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Jan 19, 2021 18:32
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Yeah, a boss version of the purple horserider enemy. He does a charge attack that's seemingly undodgeable and as far as I can tell isn't telegraphed in any way, but maybe I'm missing something. There's another purple enemy that does the same attack (Cultist Titan I think they're called) but you can pin them and it's not a OHK, at least. This dude just takes off 1000+ HP in one hit. I disabled cloud saves and restored my backup because I am weak. Back down to level 11 but that's all right.
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Jan 19, 2021 18:42
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Jan 19, 2021 19:03
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I got Ring of Pain on the humble store sale. It feels pretty random, I think it's not unlikely that a combination of bad drops and bad luck with enemy setup later can just screw you without much recourse. However, the game is short enough that it's not really a problem. I've played for 4 hours and in that time I had 18 deaths, 2 of which had gotten into the last quarter of game, and 1 win, which took 36 minutes. With a game that short I think the high variance is fine. In any case the game is really fun, has lots of interesting choices, and has a pretty great dark atmosphere. I'd recommend it to anyone who wants a game where you can pet a dog, carry around a doll head in a jar, and do the bidding of a creepy owl.
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Jan 20, 2021 01:34
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This is why you don't play Nethack.
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Jan 20, 2021 02:23
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I... how does that happen? He got two turns without you doing anything and hit you for maximum damage both times?
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Jan 20, 2021 03:33
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Glare Seethe posted:Yeah, a boss version of the purple horserider enemy. He does a charge attack that's seemingly undodgeable and as far as I can tell isn't telegraphed in any way, but maybe I'm missing something. There's another purple enemy that does the same attack (Cultist Titan I think they're called) but you can pin them and it's not a OHK, at least. This dude just takes off 1000+ HP in one hit. I too have been instagibbed by that boss. I was also a prancy Ranger. Having a lot of health/big armour will survive the hit. Alternatively, if you can get the Riposte ability from the Southern Gentleman tree (iirc) as a melee dungeonman, it makes you invulnerable. Otherwise, you need to stay out of range and constantly disable. Also somebody who remembers more than me, there might be a minimum distance from which he can do that charge attack from. Just as a side note, reloading your same character on level 11 is kinda pointless. It doesn't take long to level a new character up to that point, and you will be stronger because of accumulated Proofs of Stremf.
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Jan 20, 2021 11:00
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Jeza posted:I too have been instagibbed by that boss. I was also a prancy Ranger. Having a lot of health/big armour will survive the hit. Alternatively, if you can get the Riposte ability from the Southern Gentleman tree (iirc) as a melee dungeonman, it makes you invulnerable. Otherwise, you need to stay out of range and constantly disable. I'll take a look at the Rapier Wit ability. I did have the thought of putting a point in Real Armor and keeping a full set on me specifically for this fight. This character is a duel-wielder, wears medium armor (i.e. dodge) for the added mobility and uses a bow and necromancy for support. Of the six characters I've played so far this has been my favorite so I'd have just made the same build again I think, I might as well save the few hours it takes to level a new hero and sift through loot, etc. I've been happy to take the loss with the other dead heroes but getting instakilled twice by the same attack by the same enemy in the exact same manner is annoying enough that I'm just kind of grumpy about it instead. After the first death to this boss I tried a sword & board build thinking I'd tank the hit but I must've built it wrong because it felt incredibly squishy and I was chewing through potions and constantly near death. Ended up retiring that one at level 11 because it wasn't enjoyable. There does seem to be a certain distance that triggers the attack, but since it's a OHK it's a little hard to experiment to try and find out what it is. Oh well. I saw there was a bit of a discussion itt about this boss and this specific attack from six months ago so I guess this is a "welcome to Dungeonmans" type thing.
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Jan 20, 2021 12:19
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Rapier Wit (and the upgrade that adds a bleed) is phenomenal and I’d recommend it for almost any character, if only to counter charge attacks. That specific dude’s charge is extremely lethal and having a 100% parry buff is perhaps the only way to consistently avoid it.
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Jan 20, 2021 12:48
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Buller posted:Some of the FTL unlocks were hidden behind run-sabotaging stuff. This is fun! I like having unusual side goals to try for when I understand the rules and it begins to feel like I'm making ever finer adjustments to the same strategy forever. It's always cool when you do something extremely unlikely or stupid and the game acknowledges it.
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Jan 20, 2021 14:27
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SavageMessiah posted:I got Ring of Pain on the humble store sale. It feels pretty random, I think it's not unlikely that a combination of bad drops and bad luck with enemy setup later can just screw you without much recourse. However, the game is short enough that it's not really a problem. I've played for 4 hours and in that time I had 18 deaths, 2 of which had gotten into the last quarter of game, and 1 win, which took 36 minutes. With a game that short I think the high variance is fine. In any case the game is really fun, has lots of interesting choices, and has a pretty great dark atmosphere. I'd recommend it to anyone who wants a game where you can pet a dog, carry around a doll head in a jar, and do the bidding of a creepy owl.
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Jan 20, 2021 14:47
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Magitek posted:Rapier Wit (and the upgrade that adds a bleed) is phenomenal and I’d recommend it for almost any character, if only to counter charge attacks. That specific dude’s charge is extremely lethal and having a 100% parry buff is perhaps the only way to consistently avoid it. Okay yeah, Rapier Wit is nuts. That it's 100% guaranteed rather than based on your Parry skill seems kind of overpowered, but hell, I'll take it. It completely clowned this guy, and everyone else for that matter. Went on to beat the campaign, re-enabled cloud saves, instantly lost all progress because Steam didn't ask me which save files to use and didn't default to the most recent ones for some reason. I thought that was a thing, but I guess there'll be no post-game for me! It's all right, I'll take it as punishment for save-scumming. Fun game.
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Jan 20, 2021 19:20
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Glare Seethe posted:Okay yeah, Rapier Wit is nuts. That it's 100% guaranteed rather than based on your Parry skill seems kind of overpowered, but hell, I'll take it. I believe it's intended to be used as part of the hilariously dangerous Southern Gentlemans berserker playstyle, where you basically play as quickly as you reasonably can in order to maximize the effectiveness of your Tantrums. Rapier Wit fits perfectly in that skillset, since it helps to offset the inherent lethality of rushing and mashing buttons in a roguelike - but it fits even better in other builds, where it offsets the same amount of lethality without requiring risky play
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Jan 20, 2021 20:36
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Skul Hero Slayer releases tomorrow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqk8JL76fXI https://screenrant.com/skul-hero-slayer-game-review/ https://techraptor.net/gaming/reviews/skul-hero-slayer-review https://www.pcinvasion.com/skul-the-hero-slayer-review/ The TL:DR seems to be Pros -good combat -good variety of classes -good builds with synergy between the two classes you choose, a third active item and up to 9 passive items which a unique effect and two extra buffs. -nice art Meh: -so-so metaprogression Cons: -it needs more music tracks, it gets repetitive -basic level generation -no alternate bosses nor alternate levels, the game gets repetitive pretty soon -balance issues around the classes concept, they are organized in tiers, with some that are clearly better than others so RNG has too much weight on runs. It seems they have implemented a way to upgrade the more basic classes during a run, gaining new powers for them (including new sprites and mechanics) to try to 'catch up' with the good classes Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Jan 20, 2021 |
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Jan 20, 2021 22:06
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I can confirm on Skul that they really put forth a stellar effort on the class upgrades and outright changing some since the early access days. Pure Love was infused into what The Mummy has become once cranked up all the way proper, at the least. If they can just manage to nail post-release support and likely re-balancing the new endgame content that is wildly beyond the more known fare at it currently stands---they can well arrive at a strong classic position, even if in a different niche than the likes of Dead Cells that had more from the start in order to reach higher still.
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Jan 20, 2021 22:32
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I got my first win and I'm fully down the Synthetik hole now, jesus. Playing as a Gamble Engineer with all the recycling bonuses and the unidentified potion really scratches some instant satisfaction itch I have with RLs
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Jan 21, 2021 00:43
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Skul is a cute little game, and it's really satisfying when you get a good run going and beat a boss you've been having trouble with. There's definitely some slight jank there, as well as a couple of mildly horny designs that feel weirdly out of place in a game full of stylized monsters (the witch, that one boss battle that's just two long-legged fencer ladies in boobplates stabbing you while a fat dude strokes his moustache in the background). Still, I've had fun with it. Its roguelite, leaning very much toward the "lite" end of things; I don't have any thoughts on it as a rogueli*, but I found it quite good as an RPG-accented arcade platformer. It's worth a look!
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Jan 21, 2021 01:27
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The witch is so overt that I thought they were doing part parody of typical horny fantasy. Then again it's a Korean game.
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Jan 21, 2021 08:22
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My first impression. drat Skul is hard. Notably harder than for example Dead Cells. It has a least a 'beginner mode' where you receive 50% less damage, which seems to be my salvation. The grind is tweaked towards the slow side, too. Once you pick the first dozen of 'low hanging fruit', the rest is increasingly expensive to gain, needing several runs to accrue enough currency. Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 12:31 on Jan 21, 2021 |
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Jan 21, 2021 11:57
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The meta progression needs addressing, likely they lost sight on values and gains for all the people churning through early access that tended to have more than enough gems several times over for ages now. Fresh eyes and feedback on a massive scale as launch brings should get them on more sustainable footing sooner than later.
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Jan 21, 2021 15:54
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PMush Perfect posted:This is why you don't play Nethack. I just can't get the "Start new game, take one step, die from falling rock trap" experience anywhere else, though
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Jan 21, 2021 16:29
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Second impressions of Skul, after 6 hours of play. They are in general less positive: -It's true the balance of the classes is problematic, I finally got a legendary one and it was several times better than a common one. Having something so important depending of pure RNG seems a bad idea. They should scale back the power scale between the tiers. In fact because a legendary skull can't be upgraded, it means when the game presents you the two doors of where to go at the end of a stage, you can always choose treasure or money instead of wasting your time going for another skull, as you don't need that to gain bones to upgrade it anymore, making you richer/gaining more items. -It's true the levels are... well, they barely can be called levels. They are divided in mini stages, each one equivalent to two, maybe three 'screens'. They are just areas where to combat the enemies that spawn out from thin air. The most interesting thing I've seen in them in that the mushrooms that serve as jump pad can poison enemies. There is also a super stupid stage in world 2 where it's full of jump pads put at different heights and there are spike traps on the ground, and you and the enemies jump like crazy. -You can't save & quit. Given a game that go for more than one hour, it's an issue. -I'm not 100% with the combat. It's fairly solid, but... -Sometimes it's pretty fast and the screen is full of enemies, and I have problems seeing my own character in the middle of the chaos. They should put some color indicator in the base of the sprite, or a faint outline or some other trick like that. -Most attack animations stop movement (and don't let you resume it) for a bit more time than it should. I'm talking of maybe should be 0.15 seconds less. Which is just enough to be noticed and for the combat to not feel as smooth as it is in Hades or Dead Cells. -The skill and class cooldowns are very important in this game, but there is no sound clue for them. At least there should be one indicating when you can swap classes. -Here it's the thing with metaprogression: -You get more currency the further you advance. Dying in 3-2 vs dying in 2-2 doesn't give you an average 50% more, but notably more than that. -This is a bad idea because it means to unlock the stuff without needing to grind 100 tries, you need to not die in the first half of the game. Except... precisely the unlocks are the thing bad players like me need to reach the second half of the game! Maybe if I was enough to reach the final boss I could get enough currency in a few dozens of runs, but it isn't the case. -You need around 43000 quartz to unlock everything. Or 100 games getting 430 quartz, I guess. edit: a average run (for me, 18 minutes) got me 215 quartz, to give an example. But a 34:35 run gave me 995. -There is no 'side grades' to get. It's all pure upgrades. 12 of them, the first six have ten tiers, the second six only two. But they are all boring. The first six are cheaper at first but it's a very incremental ugprade, like +1% crit damage, or +5 health (up to +50, making you have a base of 150). The others are the good stuff like being resurrected once or having a 20% DR, but they are much more expensive, needing ~10 runs worth of quartz to unlock. -You at least don't lose currency when you die (/looks at Dead Cells). -This mix of the unlocks being boring and grindy makes me think it's okay to skip it with a trainer. It's funny because if the metaprogression would have gameplay 'content' like unlocking new skulls or new items, even if they were sidegrades, I wouldn't consider it doing it because it's cheating, but with how it is, using a trainer to unlock everything means you play exactly the same game as before, except now you can see more advanced levels and bosses, so I don't have an issue. Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jan 21, 2021 |
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Jan 21, 2021 16:50
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Baller Time posted:I just can't get the "Start new game, take one step, die from falling rock trap" experience anywhere else, though Barony
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Jan 21, 2021 21:07
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Thanks for the Skul overview. Question that I hope makes sense: are there upgrades in each run that serve as upgrades rather than sidegrades (not talking about legendary or upgraded classes). An example of what I mean would be boons from Hades as opposed to weapons in Dead Cells. Boons all enhance your skillset, whereas the weapons in Dead Cells just change your skillset. I find myself craving more games that make me feel more powerful over the course of the run (Hades, Risk of Rain 2) rather than getting new weapons that may or may not help me out (Dead Cells, Enter the Gungeon). I want the power fantasy to ramp up.
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Jan 21, 2021 21:32
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