|
lollontee posted:i have never been accused of being a nazi are you bragging or would you like to change that
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 00:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 18:50 |
|
|
indigi posted:are you bragging or would you like to change that do we know each other? anyway, forgot to add the lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 00:37
|
|
|
lollontee posted:i have never been accused of being a nazi sounds like something a nazi would say look you set this poo poo up im just following through
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 02:10
|
|
|
look, im just saying that im the kind of guy who never gets any weird questions regarding his music preferences, the lack of genocide related books in his library, or his flag collection. and definately never gets probated or banned for anything related to genocide, nationalism, genetics, ethnicitty, or any of that
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 02:22
|
|
|
lollontee posted:look, im just saying that im the kind of guy who never gets any weird questions regarding his music preferences, the lack of genocide related books in his library, or his flag collection. and definately never gets probated or banned for anything related to genocide, nationalism, genetics, ethnicitty, or any of that i mean i guess t shirts that have people asking questions that are clearly answered by your tshirt is your thing
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 02:52
|
|
|
what is that lenin line about how historical fighters/heros are all executed but then rehabilitated in safe form
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 03:45
|
|
|
platzapS posted:what is that lenin line about how historical fighters/heros are all executed but then rehabilitated in safe form “During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their theories with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander. After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonize them, so to say, and to hallow their names to a certain extent for the “consolation” of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time robbing the revolutionary theory of its substance, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarizing it” from state and revolution
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 03:48
|
|
|
that lenin guy knows his stuff
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 04:28
|
|
|
Finicums Wake posted:ok i'll do that, thanks. i saw cool posts there about the difference between 'systems thinking' and materialist dialectics, and wanted to discuss them and so on what were the posts
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 05:13
|
|
|
mila kunis posted:what were the posts idk if there was a subsequent discussion about it, but i think it was notes someone had taken on an article comparing dialectics and systems thinking with a link to the article. i'm almost certain the article in question was Dialectics and Systems Theory by Richard Levins https://www.jstor.org/stable/40403729?seq=1 i have a hard time with some of the details of the article, but here's what i think it's getting at: you have this guy, levins, who is marxist and accepts all that that theoretically entails (materialism, dialectical thinking, etc). but levins is also a practicing scientist (a biologist i gather), and accepts all that that entails. levins is told things from his colleagues in the academic sciences things like "now that systems theory exists, dialectics is obsolete at best, if not obscurantist." yet marxists he respects have warned him of conflating systems theory with dialectics, suggesting that systems theory incompletely captures what marx and marxists are doing methodologically. the essay is Levin trying to come to an even-handed analysis of what systems theory is and how it compares to (non-dogmatic) dialectical materialism levins seems to portray 'systems thinking,' as a combination of two things: 1) the kinds of mathematical models developed by cyberneticians and operations researchers and economists during the world wars and after (philip mirowski's book on this called Machine Dreams: How Economics Became a Cyborg Science, is very good); and, 2) a vague, almost pre-theoretical awareness that things and processes are interconnected and interpenetrate eachother, which seems to have come from interest in ecology and the like levins points out how these different mathematical models, in some cases, are able to capture more precisely what dialectics was always getting at. for example, the notion that quantitative shifts cause qualitative ones is captured by the modern notion of a phase shift, he claims. he points out ways in which these models are unable to capture other elements of dialectic thinking as well. but it seems to me the main difference is that 'systems thinking' is a loose assemblage of tools, and dialectics, as levins conceives it, is more like a critically self-conscious scientific research program, one which could deploy these 'systems thinking' models but is not reducible to them. idk if that makes sense, i should re-read it and find the rhizzone posters comments about it edit: my ultimate take-away from the paper was that these kind of modelling advances are something i should take seriously and try to learn about as a marxist, but that they don't displace the need for philosophy altogether edit2: i found the post in question i was looking for: https://rentry.co/33e6v Finicums Wake fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Jan 22, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 06:03
|
|
|
indigi posted:something that’s really depressing about the fall of the ussr is that in 70 years the government apparently accomplished jack poo poo when it comes to instilling any sense of solidarity in the population (even within the individual nations/ethnicities) or a belief in/desire for communist/Marxist policies and ideals. like, other than the occasional “things were better under communism” poll. what a massive failure
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 06:48
|
|
|
Finicums Wake posted:idk if there was a subsequent discussion about it, but i think it was notes someone had taken on an article comparing dialectics and systems thinking with a link to the article. i'm almost certain the article in question was Dialectics and Systems Theory by Richard Levins https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674202832 i read this book while on an anti-evolutionary psychology kick a couple of years ago and found it really useful – it's a collection of essays by levins and fellow marxist scientist king richard lewontin. full of quotes that slap too   this one is fun to go back to in a covid context  
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 06:54
|
|
|
exmarx posted:https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674202832 i'll add it to my ever growing reading list. i always think it's cool to see particularly methodologically self-conscious practicing research scientists doing philosophy of science, and it seems like that collection is exactly that but with a marxist twist, so it should be right up my alley
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 06:58
|
|
|
p.s. if you need a rhizzone account contact twittwr user angel_sentbyGod
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 07:00
|
|
|
Finicums Wake posted:p.s. if you need a rhizzone account contact twittwr user angel_sentbyGod That guy's got the best Twitter bio in the game.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 08:06
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/YellowParenti/status/1352621628757311488
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 15:22
|
|
|
Lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 15:53
|
|
|
comedyblissoption posted:afaik contemporaneously most people at the time wanted to keep the soviet union intact, and then when that fell, most did not want the neoliberal shock therapy and it required tanks firing into the parliament and massacre of civilians to enforce this wtf i hate tankies now
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 15:59
|
|
|
comedyblissoption posted:afaik contemporaneously most people at the time wanted to keep the soviet union intact, and then when that fell, most did not want the neoliberal shock therapy and it required tanks firing into the parliament and massacre of civilians to enforce this it was something like 79% for preservation, as well I don't think the USSR failed in idealism in a basic sense because while the a substantial part of the nomenklatura was pretty much eh, as late as Chernobyl there was a revolutionary ethos coming from the people. They (the bureaucrats) thought the miners would have to be forced to be liquidators, and many were caught off guard that they ready and willing to sacrifice themselves. A friend of mine who is studying the story of the Union said that Chernobyl was sort of a flipping point for a chunk of people in the higher administration, ironically: that the revolution was correct in seeing these volunteers in droves to save their people and later on would oppose Gorbachev and the liberal-inclined with ire
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 17:11
|
|
|
dead gay comedy forums posted:it was something like 79% for preservation, as well Man, that's depressing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 21:01
|
|
|
dead gay comedy forums posted:it was something like 79% for preservation, as well i apologize for my baby brain but i'm having a hard time parsing this sentence, so this whole paragraph is going over my head.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 01:47
|
|
|
indigi posted:yeah but presumably this wasn’t the case in the 70s-80s in the Eastern Bloc i dunno, i think all the stories of people desperately trying to pretend that everything was normal indicates they wanted it. i just don't think there was much people could do to keep it going, and hadn't been for a long time
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 05:55
|
|
|
lollontee posted:look, im just saying that im the kind of guy who never gets any weird questions regarding his music preferences, the lack of genocide related books in his library, or his flag collection. and definately never gets probated or banned for anything related to genocide, nationalism, genetics, ethnicitty, or any of that Your the kind of guy who has to preemptively deflect these accusations, which is telling in of itself.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 05:56
|
|
|
God Hole posted:i apologize for my baby brain but i'm having a hard time parsing this sentence, so this whole paragraph is going over my head. as far as I can tell, what they're saying is that: 1. there was a strong sense of voluntarism and self-sacrifice and community even as late as Chernobyl, with workers being eager to render what is essentially free, life-threatening labor to try and help fight the crisis 2. the higher-ups saw this, and figured that this would mean that if Gorbachev tried his liberal reforms, that it would receive so much opposition from below that it would fail 3. that actually did happen, which is why the Russian Parliament had to be shelled by tanks and civilians had to be massacred in order for people to be cowed into going along with the dissolution with the USSR
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 06:08
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:as far as I can tell, what they're saying is that:
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 06:15
|
|
|
THS posted:“During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their theories with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander. After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonize them, so to say, and to hallow their names to a certain extent for the “consolation” of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time robbing the revolutionary theory of its substance, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarizing it” ty i was wanting a description of bernie "mittens" sanders and i got it
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 06:18
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:as far as I can tell, what they're saying is that: makes you think
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 06:27
|
|
|
Lady Militant posted:water is heavy and making enough of it go up to provide for plants is tricky, getting plants the light they need has been solved, it's mostly just agriculture has very low returns so using space set aside for high rise buildings for it probably won't happen under a returns/profit prioritized system because that "garden skyscraper" could be luxury apartments/condo investment vehicles. generally very plant specific on what they grow as well only certain plants do well etc, also depending how they grow it can be just big test petri dish if bad poo poo gets in.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 06:42
|
|
|
i thought i saw a man brought to life he was warm, he came around, he was dignified he showed me what it was to fight well you couldnt be that man i adored you dont seem to know, seem to care, what your party's for well i dont know him anymore
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 06:43
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:2. the higher-ups saw this, and figured that this would mean that if Gorbachev tried his liberal reforms, that it would receive so much opposition from below that it would fail it sounds like there wasn’t enough opposition from below to make it fail, and it in fact succeeded Larry Parrish posted:mi just don't think there was much people could do to keep it going, and hadn't been for a long time if there was nothing the masses could do to save it that’s an even worse failure of the Soviet system imo indigi fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Jan 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 06:48
|
|
|
indigi posted:it sounds like there wasn’t enough opposition from below to make it fail, and it in fact succeeded yeah sorry when I said "that actually did happen", I meant that people didn't like it and resisted, not that there was enough resistance to stop Gorbachev. gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Jan 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 06:49
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:yeah sorry when I said "that actually did happen", I meant that people didn't like it and resisted, not that there was enough resistance to make stop Gorbachev. ah I see
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 06:50
|
|
|
Larry Parrish posted:it's hard to buy the propaganda about evil stalin doing an imperialism when you realize that eastern Europe was a real piece of poo poo at the time Stalin's biggest mistake was honoring his agreement to keep eastern bloc nations nominally independent rather than directly incoporating them into the USSR
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 18:40
|
|
|
apparently a contingent from the world socialist website showed up to the hunts point strike in the bronx this week to pass out pamphlets urging the workers NOT to unionize but instead to join the wsws's revolutionary workers' party. unfortunately the comprador labor aristocrats just chased the wsw people out
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 18:51
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:apparently a contingent from the world socialist website showed up to the hunts point strike in the bronx this week to pass out pamphlets urging the workers NOT to unionize but instead to join the wsws's revolutionary workers' party. unfortunately the comprador labor aristocrats just chased the wsw people out lmao
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 18:57
|
|
Homeless Friend posted:generally very plant specific on what they grow as well only certain plants do well etc, also depending how they grow it can be just big test petri dish if bad poo poo gets in. depends on your setup, iv seen designs for ones that were able to use natural wind to replace constant ventilation on higher floors you'd need to avoid what your talking about.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 19:14
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:apparently a contingent from the world socialist website showed up to the hunts point strike in the bronx this week to pass out pamphlets urging the workers NOT to unionize but instead to join the wsws's revolutionary workers' party. unfortunately the comprador labor aristocrats just chased the wsw people out Lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 19:18
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:apparently a contingent from the world socialist website showed up to the hunts point strike in the bronx this week to pass out pamphlets urging the workers NOT to unionize but instead to join the wsws's revolutionary workers' party. unfortunately the comprador labor aristocrats just chased the wsw people out Lmao
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 19:18
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:as far as I can tell, what they're saying is that: thanks for this, I wrote that post superfast and didn’t realize that I was in deep brain fog until later on now came back to review it because of the quote and welp lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 19:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 18:50 |
|
|
most people in the soviet union wanted it to persist, it's just that there were no independent means of organizing for its existence outside of the party, which Gorbachev effectively destroyed. Civil-social groups in the USSR were always treated with kids gloves and more or less became transmission belts for party doctrine. The only groups capable of were associations of black market profiteers, managers, and disgruntled intelligentsia upset they couldn't live like Americans.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 19:53
|
|
