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I like the section from At The Mountains of Madness where the real cosmic horror... is empathyquote:And now, when Danforth and I saw the freshly glistening and reflectively iridescent black slime which clung thickly to those headless bodies and stank obscenely with that new unknown odour whose cause only a diseased fancy could envisage—clung to those bodies and sparkled less voluminously on a smooth part of the accursedly re-sculptured wall in a series of grouped dots—we understood the quality of cosmic fear to its uttermost depths. It was not fear of those four missing others—for all too well did we suspect they would do no harm again. Poor devils! After all, they were not evil things of their kind. They were the men of another age and another order of being. Nature had played a hellish jest on them—as it will on any others that human madness, callousness, or cruelty may hereafter drag up in that hideously dead or sleeping polar waste—and this was their tragic homecoming. Tunicate has a new favorite as of 00:30 on Jan 21, 2021 |
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Jan 21, 2021 00:23
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I'm not sure that's supposed to be The Real Horror.
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Jan 21, 2021 07:14
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The real horror was the friends you made along the way. that turned out to be swarthy, or perhaps even... ITALIAN!
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Jan 21, 2021 07:55
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Darth Walrus posted:The idea that Western civilisation (and civilisation in general) is a beautiful but rare and fragile aberration that is doomed to be snuffed out by the bestial, unthinking savagery that surrounds it is popular, internally consistent, and extremely racist. Where did you think slogans like the Fourteen Words came from? Hell, fascism itself was hardly born from a mindset of optimism and self-confidence. The thing is that white anglo men are still the primitive savages grasping in the darkness in this analogy, since the aliens are often far more advanced and sophisticated with poo poo like time travel and space travel and building massive cities when proto-humanity was barely figuring out fire. Apparently Lovecraft's correspondence with Robert E Howard was interesting, since Howard pointed out that colonialism was just as savage and brutal as anything that could be pinner on 'lesser' races.
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Jan 21, 2021 08:18
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Don't want to restart the fanfic debate, but the "Lovecraft but it's by a black author and from the viewpoint of the non-white characters" is an entire genre by now and has some solid stuff in it
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Jan 21, 2021 12:55
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:The real horror was the friends you made along the way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5uWLX3sbz8
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Jan 21, 2021 13:04
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Ichabod Sexbeast posted:Don't want to restart the fanfic debate, but the "Lovecraft but it's by a black author and from the viewpoint of the non-white characters" is an entire genre by now and has some solid stuff in it I don't like HPL but I like his weird mythos and how detailed it gets, and I enjoy contemporary authors having fun with it, like Cassandra Khaw's Ythian PI. Victor LaValle's "Ballad of Black Tom" is also excellent.
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Jan 21, 2021 15:48
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Lovecraftian horror works from the initial point of man considering himself the master of creation,then destroying that supposition by presenting something that cannot even be understood,much less controlled. Generally,ignorance, denial and incuriosity are the only ways to actually survive - a lot of time you have some primitive peasants/locals/whatever telling the protagonist to leave things be,he arrogantly dismisses them,then gets promptly hosed up for his hubris. There's also a variation where instead of the horror coming from outside,it comes from inside. Man considers himself a master of his self,is fatally proven wrong - stuff like Rats in the walls or Innsmouth horror. While all of this was profoundly racist when done by Lovecraft,I think the core concepts can absolutely be done without resorting to racist bullshit. The realization that the world is a chaotic,often very hostile place and there's not much you can do to control or even comprehend what is happening is pretty universal IMO.
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Jan 21, 2021 22:20
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Capilarean posted:Lovecraftian horror works from the initial point of man considering himself the master of creation,then destroying that supposition by presenting something that cannot even be understood,much less controlled. Generally,ignorance, denial and incuriosity are the only ways to actually survive - a lot of time you have some primitive peasants/locals/whatever telling the protagonist to leave things be,he arrogantly dismisses them,then gets promptly hosed up for his hubris. Sure, but you do need to have had a certain level of... insulation for it to come as such a mind-destroying shock to an adult.
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Jan 21, 2021 23:03
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Lovecraft had a hosed up childhood, including his father going violently insane and dying
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Jan 21, 2021 23:18
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Tunicate posted:Lovecraft had a hosed up childhood, including his father going violently insane and dying That was the yithians' fault.
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Jan 22, 2021 02:59
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99.99% of the time, racism is a moral failing. With Lovecraft, I really truly feel the man was deeply mentally sick. Like, if you could somehow magically take away his racism (but the racist has to legit want to give it up), I think he'd have gone for it.
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Jan 22, 2021 08:06
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Both the guy's parents died in asylums iirc and he was raised as a girl by his aunts for at least some of his childhood, while his family went from rich to somewhat struggling. Dude was almost definitely suffering from any amount of mental issues along with physical ones. And he did apparently soften up on the racism later in his short life.
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Jan 22, 2021 08:16
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The fact that there are people genuinely angry at someone pointing out that The Divine Comedy, being a derivative work with a few self-indulgences on the part of its author, including self-insertion into the narrative, shares characteristics with derivative works written in the modern day says more about any given person's cultural perspective and, indeed, hangups than it does about the work itself. Calling it fanfiction is, for some people, insultingly reductive yet also incredibly on the nose so the idea will probably persist, no matter how much people might object.
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Jan 22, 2021 09:18
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Xarbala posted:Calling it fanfiction is, for some people, insultingly reductive yet also incredibly on the nose so the idea will probably persist, no matter how much people might object. Yes, people are unfortunately very stupid, and very persistent.
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Jan 22, 2021 09:23
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This is the cultural hangups issue again. If you look back at the discussion, you'll find arguments against the idea that The Divine Comedy is not fanfiction couched in emotional arguments, appeals to a glorious past, and insults. They observe somewhat hazy and arbitrary distinctions between the different forms of derivative work but insist these distinctions are solid. There are arguments that imply, if not state outright, that such comparisons are an insult to Christianity itself. Meanwhile, people making the argument that it is fanfiction are dispassionate in their observations and rather neatly draw parallels between Dante's most famous work and modern derivative works by less talented writers. They do not appear to care that this comparison might be construed as an attack on someone's religion or literary canon, they merely observe the commonalities of the human experience as seen through the exercise of writing. Even when the writing is very, very bad. For what it's worth, the entire conflict boils down to how much baggage an individual poster might have about the cultural baggage around the use of the word "fanfiction," and how some people might apply that as a generic term for derivative works in general.
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Jan 22, 2021 09:48
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As with all things language, however, usage is the arbiter final. To everyone out there fighting to prevent the broadening of the word "fanfic" to mean a convenient shorthand for any derivative work of literature ever made, well: Good luck.
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Jan 22, 2021 09:57
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Look at this. It's worthless, fanfiction, a dime a dozen from a writer on the net. But bury it in the sands for a thousand years, it becomes priceless.
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Jan 22, 2021 09:58
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Xarbala posted:This is the cultural hangups issue again. No.
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Jan 22, 2021 10:04
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It is definitely fanfiction, he even wrote all his posting enemies into it just so he could dunk on them. It is My Immortal with fancier wording.
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Jan 22, 2021 10:04
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Xarbala posted:As with all things language, however, usage is the arbiter final. Yes, so thankfully something as stupid as expanding the use of word fanfic, which nobody in the real world likes or cares about, is not going to happen outside of brokebrained communities. Look, I even coached my post in emotion so you don't have to work too hard making your dumb condescending comeback.
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Jan 22, 2021 10:08
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steinrokkan posted:Yes, so thankfully something as stupid as expanding the use of word fanfic, which nobody in the real world likes or cares about, is not going to happen outside of brokebrained communities. Dante Alighieri was a pioneer in the democratization of literature, an advocate of the vernacular when the vast majority of literature was written in Latin. The greatest figure of Italian literature, whose work was so influential it helped to establish the standardization of modern Italian as a language, to a far greater degree than what Shakespeare had done with English. He did not believe in the hoarding of literature to an elect, educated, and privileged few. He genuinely thought literature was something to be spread to the masses, something for all humanity. In short, 
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Jan 22, 2021 10:10
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Yes, thankfully Dante wasn't writing fanfiction. Nonetheless, since you asked, allow me to thank you for also democratizing literature and language, something that has been limited to the 1% cabal until you wrote your Transformers inflation fetish and published it on your blog. It was always stupid and inefficient how all people were taught literacy but there was literally nothing to read. lol that this fanfic redefining "movement" is just naked self-aggrandisement and delusional thinking by people who think the one thing the world is missing is more written white noise about the latest cartoon. steinrokkan has a new favorite as of 10:29 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 10:21
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steinrokkan posted:Yes, thankfully Dante wasn't writing fanfiction. Nonetheless, since you asked, allow me to thank you for also democratizing literature and language, something that has been limited to the 1% cabal until you wrote your Transformers inflation fetish and published it on your blog. It was always stupid and inefficient how all people were taught literacy but there was literally nothing to read. You sound mad. On the internet. Just lol at the idea that fanfiction is some unique manifestation of the social and moral ills of late-stage capitalism, and not just a modern word for what people have been doing since five minutes after literature was invented.
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Jan 22, 2021 10:33
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Do you consider modern writers writing Sherlock Holmes stories to be fanfic writers? What about non-Lovecraft entries in the Cthulu mythos? What about licensed books, like the star wars EU? Did it make a difference to the fanfic status when disney declared it all non-canon?
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Jan 22, 2021 10:33
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I mean, yes? What's the useful difference between someone getting a modern Sherlock Holmes novel published, and someone uploading a similar novel to fanfiction.net?
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Jan 22, 2021 10:38
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steinrokkan posted:Yes, thankfully Dante wasn't writing fanfiction. Nonetheless, since you asked, allow me to thank you for also democratizing literature and language, something that has been limited to the 1% cabal until you wrote your Transformers inflation fetish and published it on your blog. It was always stupid and inefficient how all people were taught literacy but there was literally nothing to read. Yeah nobody gives a poo poo about fanfic. I sure as hell don't. It's just funny that there's people really loving mad (including you, apparently) about a phenomenon that has existed since literacy was even a thing. As Dante himself even proved. Modern fanfiction is just the result of giving literally anybody with access to a computer and internet to put their garbage out there. No joke, this is the result of the democratization of literature.
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Jan 22, 2021 10:39
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"It's not fanfic, it's not fanfic!" I insist as Dante writes about Virgil summoning an Archangel who then blows up the Furies by shouting at them.
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Jan 22, 2021 10:41
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gently caress, 99% of fanfiction sucks rear end. But so do most actual published works. poo poo like RP1 still gets published by actual publishers and then turned into a movie - and RP1 isn't even fanfiction. It's just a rusting bucket filled with the detritus that usually forms the basis for fanfiction.
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Jan 22, 2021 10:44
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Mr. Sunshine posted:I mean, yes? What's the useful difference between someone getting a modern Sherlock Holmes novel published, and someone uploading a similar novel to fanfiction.net? I was actually asking the other guy, you just replied to him first! As he is apparently the arbiter of what is and is not fanfic I'm curious as to where he draws the lines. I'm personally of the opinion that its a weird thing to get blown up about. A number of published authors started off writing straight up fanfic, and while its not my thing, if someone wants to spend their leisure time reading it or writing it, well more power to their elbow, they arent hurting anyone.
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Jan 22, 2021 10:46
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Should we count Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead as fanfic? I mean, it's pretty clearly a derivative work, it barely makes sense if you're not already familiar with Hamlet.
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Jan 22, 2021 10:53
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I mean, by the stricter definition of the term, you couldn't pay me to read fanfiction. Well that's not true, the pandemic hit all of us pretty hard, but if you want to make me read fanfic my rates would be exorbitant. But from an anthropological perspective seeing the commonalities between writers of derivative fiction throughout the ages is, well, at the very least amusing. And honestly kind of life-affirming if you divest yourself of any personal or emotional investment in the idea of high culture being inviolate. That's what I was getting at. Don't get it twisted.
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Jan 22, 2021 10:56
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I personally would make the bold claim that there are no solid borders separating "respectable literature" from "worthless fanfiction". I am happy to acknowledge there's a tremendous difference in quality and cultural impact between Paradise Lost and some 14-year-old's Lucifer mpreg yaoi slash fic, but both authors are indulging in the same fundamental exercise - exploring an existing literary canon and its characters, and expanding it in new ways often unsupported by the original work.
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Jan 22, 2021 11:02
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Dante not having access to the right websites is the only reason none of the circles of hell involve being vored by a six-titted cow-woman
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Jan 22, 2021 11:21
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Tenebrais posted:Dante not having access to the right websites is the only reason none of the circles of hell involve being vored by a six-titted cow-woman Gluttony, Cerberus.
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Jan 22, 2021 11:24
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Really that's just a shame, imagine how much better his literature could have been if he had the internet.
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Jan 22, 2021 11:33
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Arguing about fanfiction is like some 21st century nerds/geek debate. It's pretty obvious there's tons of bad non-fanfiction getting published every day but suddenly someone writes a story using a popular IP and people stumble over themselves to poo poo all over for it not being "original" and therefore bad. Fanfic is just a convenient pejorative people want to use to make themselves feel superior that their self-published vampire mystery is true art while insisting every Twilight fanfic is automatically hot garbage (it might be, but that's not a rational excuse).
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Jan 22, 2021 12:34
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OwlFancier posted:It is definitely fanfiction, he even wrote all his posting enemies into it just so he could dunk on them. It is My Immortal with fancier wording. Well, now I want to read Inferno.
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Jan 22, 2021 16:15
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Sisal Two-Step posted:Well, now I want to read Inferno. In case this was serious/for anybody who might want to, I recommend this translation: https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Comedy-Wicksteed-Unabridged-Translation/dp/0394701267 It strikes the right balance in preserving the poetic grandeur of the epic, without descending into snarled forced constructions from trying to fit English into Italian rhyming patterns. Also it's not the godawful Longfellow translation, which is poo poo.
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Jan 22, 2021 18:57
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Xarbala posted:I mean, by the stricter definition of the term, you couldn't pay me to read fanfiction. Well that's not true, the pandemic hit all of us pretty hard, but if you want to make me read fanfic my rates would be exorbitant.
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Jan 22, 2021 19:09
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