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Groovelord Neato posted:Yeah it's something I miss. You'd also spend a lot longer in areas leveling so you'd become well known as a good group member. It also made it exceptionally wild to recognize someone on the other side of the world like "oh hey its Legomyeggolas, I did a dungeon with you all the way back in Crushbone, imagine running into you here!"
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Jan 23, 2021 03:07
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You know what's better than a world being 'expansive'? Gameplay actually being constantly fun moment to moment. My feeling of "Wow the Sea of Clouds in Heavensward is so big and pretty" lasted half an hour, my annoyance at having to hike all over it for various quests lasted a lot longer than that. Truga posted:
I keep thinking about going back to GW2 but I stopped playing just before the first expansion came out so I got no idea what it's like. Back then the way to go fast was to have an ability that gave you speed and just mash it on cooldown. I got no idea what it's like to play these days. I really soured on it when I found out that you had to play for the 'Living Story' when back during pre-release, which I followed, they were big on "you can leave it alone for a while and come back to new stuff whenever you want". "You never have to craft anything you don't actually need for your character" was another big broken promise. bewilderment fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 04:07
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Zaphod42 posted:It also made it exceptionally wild to recognize someone on the other side of the world like "oh hey its Legomyeggolas, I did a dungeon with you all the way back in Crushbone, imagine running into you here!" It also made it really special in the early days to see an unusual race in your leveling area. Immediately after EQ launch, when the world was full of ignorance, I recall seeing some Barbarian in Freeport and being like, "wow!". If you wanted to play with your friends on the other side of the world, you'd be wise to bank your stuff and run the scary as poo poo gauntlet through the Karanas, Highpass, Kithicor, etc. My dream game would park the newb cities far away from one another, and leave everything in between dangerous, unknown and irritating as hell hehe. I want to blindly run through West Karana at night with a bear chasing my naked rear end!
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Jan 23, 2021 06:00
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cmdrk posted:It also made it really special in the early days to see an unusual race in your leveling area. Immediately after EQ launch, when the world was full of ignorance, I recall seeing some Barbarian in Freeport and being like, "wow!". If you wanted to play with your friends on the other side of the world, you'd be wise to bank your stuff and run the scary as poo poo gauntlet through the Karanas, Highpass, Kithicor, etc. absolutely. there are only two ways a traditional-ish mmo could attract me at this point: either have a hardcore leveling experience with the classic design decisions of EQ, FFXI, etc. and somehow draw the population to actually sustain this in the year 2021, or be city of heroes levels of casual wow and ffxiv have the middle experience pretty well monopolized at this point and i don't see competitors being able to dislodge them without enormous expense
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Jan 23, 2021 06:10
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bewilderment posted:You know what's better than a world being 'expansive'? I definitely don't want an MMO to be constantly fun moment to moment. I like in classic wow you can just jump on a flight and go to the toilet or fix yourself a drink/food. I like some mindless grinding watching videos on my other monitor or talking on discord. It sits much better as a lifestyle game, which is what I want from an MMO. I want to have it on in the background of my life like how people leave the TV on all the time even when they're not watching it. If I'm just going to load it up when I want action, play it, then put it down, it might as well not be an MMO.
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Jan 23, 2021 06:33
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bewilderment posted:There's also zero build variety other than choosing your class, for those that care about such things. Since world firsts in difficult raids basically this means that all classes of a given type (tanks, healers, etc) have parity with each other and playing your class well means doing your set rotation while trying not to flub it as you dodge AoEs and do mechanics and so on.
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Jan 23, 2021 12:12
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Itzena posted:The flip-side of this is they've got class balance that Blizzard would sell someone else's firstborns to have in WoW - ~5% difference between top DPS and bottom, which is less than you'd see going from "expert at playing the class" to "faceroll keyboard" in a single class. Tbh as someone without much personal WoW experience but a great deal of hearing friends bitch about it, it sounds like the peaks and troughs of WoW class/spec balance are a feature and not a bug
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Jan 23, 2021 22:26
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Chillgamesh posted:Tbh as someone without much personal WoW experience but a great deal of hearing friends bitch about it, it sounds like the peaks and troughs of WoW class/spec balance are a feature and not a bug Hah! That's a rather interesting thought. You could write a thesis paper on "intentionally imbalanced multiplayer produces greater player satisfaction in the long run" I'm not sure its a win in the long run though. But I could be convinced. Guess the devil's in the details for class balance though.
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Jan 23, 2021 22:33
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it'd be a great way for blizzard to spin their total incompetence at anything approaching balance even beyond constantly loving over classes and specs at random, they are still awful at itemization. you would think 17 years in they would have figured out how to not make like one trinket far and away the best in slot, but nope
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Jan 24, 2021 01:00
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I'm not really a fan of FFXIVs rigid no-customization class design, but I'll definitely acknowledge that it does result in some very snappy gameplay once you actually get most of your buttons, plus being easier on the devs. RE: gw2 mounts/gliders, honestly every game should just straight up copy how gw2 handles them, because they are so much better than "stand still for 1.5 seconds, now you move 75% faster and maybe can fly, yay." Having travel actually be enjoyable instead of just being a boring timesink makes a huge difference when it comes to navigating big maps during the general gameplay loop. Syenite fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Jan 24, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 01:29
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bewilderment posted:I keep thinking about going back to GW2 but I stopped playing just before the first expansion came out so I got no idea what it's like. Back then the way to go fast was to have an ability that gave you speed and just mash it on cooldown. I got no idea what it's like to play these days. imo mounts make gw2 go from a half-decent mmo to a good game that's fun to wander around in because you don't get knocked down and crippled every 10 seconds, while also seeing way too many loading screens which is very much a problem early gw2 had, with the slow pace of movement coupled with waypoints every 100m. "we don't have mounts we have waypoints so you don't need them" lol buzz off, i'd honestly rather spend a minute moving around the map than watching a minute of loading screens anyway, you get a good mount like 5 minutes into the 2nd expansion, and just having that single mount makes the game way better already, and any extra you get just allow you to get around places even quicker Syenite posted:I'm not really a fan of FFXIVs rigid no-customization class design, but I'll definitely acknowledge that it does result in some very snappy gameplay once you actually get most of your buttons, plus being easier on the devs. yeah as much as i love theorycrafting my way around a rpg, there's definitely something to be said about ff14's approach. it simply doesn't matter what class you like because they're all good enough to clear any content despite highest end content being pretty challenging. gw2 still pisses me off how there's a bunch of choices, but then everyone runs the same 2 builds in hard content because anything else feels like poo poo, real nice job there guys
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Jan 24, 2021 01:46
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Phigs posted:I like some mindless grinding watching videos on my other monitor or talking on discord. To me this sounds absolutely awful as a game. Just slowly pushing the same buttons making Number Go Up. If grinding is the only thing a game has then it's even more important that the moment to moment gameplay is entertaining because that's all there is! Moment to moment gameplay! It doesn't have to be High Tier Raid gameplay all the time, I'd be happy enough with it just being like the easier Halo or action game difficulties where you still get some fun jumping around and shooting or mashing the attack buttons.
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Jan 24, 2021 01:56
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Syenite posted:I'm not really a fan of FFXIVs rigid no-customization class design, but I'll definitely acknowledge that it does result in some very snappy gameplay once you actually get most of your buttons, plus being easier on the devs. i agree with the mounts thing wrt class customizaton, at least in the way too many years i played wow, there was basically one viable build for each spec, which made customizing your class basically an annoying formality. there were a lot of times when i was forced into speccing into abilities that i did not enjoy, or out of abilities that i did enjoy, because otherwise i was just hamstringing myself. i'm not even a crazy optimisation guy either, if it were a small difference between the fun ability and the boring one i would just eat the dps loss, but that was very rarely the case. i don't enjoy crunching numbers or running sims, but i do like getting good at my rotation and mechanics, so the ffxiv way works better for me. it plays more like a regular game, and less like a big formula
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Jan 24, 2021 04:07
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Truga posted:yeah path of exile has that niche cornered. it doesn't help that they've been at it for like 7 years now, and while league mechanics are kinda hit or miss, with all the content from previous leagues also incorporated into the game to some extent, there's so much weird poo poo to do it takes a few hundred hours before it starts getting repetitive. 100% agreed
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Jan 24, 2021 04:10
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eonwe posted:no, is the answer
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Jan 24, 2021 05:31
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I just want a game where my gear isn't getting completely replaced every time new content is released
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Jan 24, 2021 09:09
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A huge pool of interesting sidegrades rather than an arduous treadmill of boring upgrades
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Jan 24, 2021 09:12
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blatman posted:I just want a game where my gear isn't getting completely replaced every time new content is released The gear treadmill is mostly about making your princess prettier instead of making numbers higher.
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Jan 24, 2021 11:38
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Sea of Thieves has the most fun travel in any game I've played. A pirate MMO with it would be the bee's knees.
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Jan 24, 2021 16:59
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It would be nice if MMOs could make interacting with other players fun rather than an onerous chore. I met a lot of neat people from all over the place in early WoW. After they stopped playing, so did I. FFXIV has a mostly nice community, but the chat system is both really limited and completely locked out while running duties. Which means I can't talk to my friends while slogging through the daily dungeons. Destiny supports voice chat natively, but for some reason has it disabled by default. If other players are the worst part of the game, what's even the point of playing an MMO?
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Jan 24, 2021 18:36
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LLSix posted:Destiny supports voice chat natively, but for some reason has it disabled by default. I’m glad you mentioned this, especially the second part. One of my favorite things about New World from what I played was the proximity based voice chat that isn’t in any way limited to your group or instances. Just hearing people talk to each other in the overworld, in cities, in remote parts of the woods will on quests, or just standing next to you at the crafting stations. It added some so much immersion and a sense of community. That’s why I appreciate the “why play an MMO” comment because I feel the same. I know the default, cynical response to the voice chat is “but everyone is toxic” but I find, especially in a situation where everyone can hear you *and* you have a reputation, people tend to behave. And if not, there is mute, but it’s not just on for everyone by default.
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Jan 24, 2021 18:47
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LLSix posted:It would be nice if MMOs could make interacting with other players fun rather than an onerous chore. XIV lets you create or join linkshells, basically custom channels. They work in duties, and there's a variant called crossworld linkshell that lets you chat with invited people across the entire datacenter. The main limitation is that you can only be in 8 of each. It's still dumb that regular /tell is disabled in duties, though.
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Jan 24, 2021 20:42
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guild chat is available in instances in ff14 as well, though admittedly it was actually about an expansion before linkshell channels were available in there, I think? It's definitely still very on the WoW model than anything really immersive tho Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jan 24, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 21:01
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Pandaal posted:I’m glad you mentioned this, especially the second part. One of my favorite things about New World from what I played was the proximity based voice chat that isn’t in any way limited to your group or instances. Just hearing people talk to each other in the overworld, in cities, in remote parts of the woods will on quests, or just standing next to you at the crafting stations. It added some so much immersion and a sense of community. This was what I missed from PUBG the most. Wrecking another party then hearing them moan about it was fun. They removed proximity chat completely outside of your party rather than deal with the fact that 60% of the lobby is loudspeaker bots screaming a loop of BUY CHEATS HERE in text-to-speech Chinese
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Jan 24, 2021 21:14
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The most fun part of APB was disabling a criminal and hearing them go crazy on the mic as you arrested them.
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Jan 24, 2021 22:06
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Groovelord Neato posted:The most fun part of APB was disabling a criminal and hearing them go crazy on the mic as you arrested them. The most fun part of APB was you and your friends stacking all the garbage trucks in town on top of each other into a garbage truck tower and then plowing full speed down the main thoroughfare as an unstoppable juggernaut that would launch any players it touched into space
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Jan 24, 2021 22:38
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Groovelord Neato posted:The most fun part of APB was disabling a criminal and hearing them go crazy on the mic as you arrested them. God yes.
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Jan 25, 2021 00:51
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Hot take: APB may have been the most fun I’ve had in any mmo for the month it lasted. Edit: oh poo poo it’s still a thing apparently?
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Jan 25, 2021 01:30
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I loved APB but it was a terrible game. Barreling through the main streets in a pedo van slamming randos was a good time, but only because the game was broken beyond repair. Using a garish LTL weapon that looked more like a nerf gun but was functionally less powerful than one and was as frustrating for the user as the target. Arresting a criminal while dressed as a goblin wearing a pink afro was a good time though.
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Jan 25, 2021 01:53
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Phigs posted:It sits much better as a lifestyle game, which is what I want from an MMO. You know I’ve never had a sentence make me this viscerally uncomfortable without involving some form of immorality, creepy sex poo poo, body horror or some combination of the three. Congratulations.
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Jan 25, 2021 07:26
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LLSix posted:It would be nice if MMOs could make interacting with other players fun rather than an onerous chore. This is why MMOs died. EQ and FFXI made you NEED other players to even survive or do anything worthwhile. WoW makes other players an obstacle. Destiny makes other players scenery. Its insane you still can't just walk up to someone and have them join your party in Destiny, they have to load all the way out and back in. The game is inherently not designed to be social at all.
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Jan 25, 2021 07:53
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APB was the world's greatest character creator tool with a really bad game attached.Aithon posted:XIV lets you create or join linkshells, basically custom channels. They work in duties, and there's a variant called crossworld linkshell that lets you chat with invited people across the entire datacenter. The main limitation is that you can only be in 8 of each. WoW and FFXIV have this thing though where you're basically playing a single player RPG while chatting with your guild. (outside raiding) You don't talk to random people very much or ever. You don't meet new people except maybe in duty rotation in FFXIV or LFG runs in WOW. You could have a totally single player RPG with a simple chat server and basically get the WoW experience. I would argue that's not even an MMORPG at that point. Its like playing a single player rpg and chatting on SA at the same time. You're technically online with other people who are playing the same game.
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Jan 25, 2021 07:55
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Lots of MMOs have public quests/events now and it always felt strange that it never tried to 'auto-party' you. Like imagine as you get near the objective it automatically puts you into a 'loose party' that tried to match whatever the party composition of that game is, and let you target your Loose Party members easier, and then you could one-click a 'Form Party' button under it to encourage people to stick with you and do other stuff in the zone.
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Jan 25, 2021 11:21
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Rift did that.
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Jan 25, 2021 13:38
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Mr. Neutron posted:Rift did that. Despite the fact that the rifts were just culling mobs until they stopped coming out, the style of rifts and how they tainted a little area around the opening with the style of the rift was pretty cool. A lot of mmos could learn a lot from it.
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Jan 25, 2021 14:20
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jokes posted:I loved APB but it was a terrible game. Barreling through the main streets in a pedo van slamming randos was a good time, but only because the game was broken beyond repair. Using a garish LTL weapon that looked more like a nerf gun but was functionally less powerful than one and was as frustrating for the user as the target. Disagree. APB was incredibly fun and a good game at its core. Cops and robbers on two massive, complex urban maps with potential for really tight, tactical team play and hilarious vehicle physics? What's not to love? What actually killed it was (1) zero content updates and (2) not just a pay-to-win, but a pay-a-shitload-to-win cash market. And I loved the LTL weapons precisely because they sucked so bad and it took very careful play to make them work. I think I actually maxed out my cop level (or whatever skill was associated w/ arrests).
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Jan 25, 2021 16:37
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jokes posted:I loved APB but it was a terrible game. Barreling through the main streets in a pedo van slamming randos was a good time, but only because the game was broken beyond repair. Using a garish LTL weapon that looked more like a nerf gun but was functionally less powerful than one and was as frustrating for the user as the target. A first person good version of APB is one of my dream games. Eugene V. Dubstep posted:Disagree. APB was incredibly fun and a good game at its core. Cops and robbers on two massive, complex urban maps with potential for really tight, tactical team play and hilarious vehicle physics? What's not to love? What actually killed it was (1) zero content updates and (2) not just a pay-to-win, but a pay-a-shitload-to-win cash market. The driving was incredibly bad (like boats but I got used to it) and yeah the funniest part about criminals getting mad when you knocked them with LTL guns was it took a lot more skill to get good with them. They whined like it was cheap. But hell I had hours of fun doing random poo poo driving around or blocking off intersections with goons.
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Jan 25, 2021 19:02
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ive had more pleasant interactions with strangers in 2 months of playing ffxiv than i had in a decade+ of playing wow on-and-off. one thing i do miss from older mmos is the out-of-combat utility you got from different classes. it made them feel special, apart from the classes who got jack poo poo, then they just felt left out.
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Jan 25, 2021 19:52
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bewilderment posted:Lots of MMOs have public quests/events now and it always felt strange that it never tried to 'auto-party' you. Both FFXIV and GW2 do this with EVENT / FATE things. Its a pretty solid concept, although it still just means that you randomly kill a big boss with 20 people and then scatter off afterwards. You never actually make friends with someone, they're too short in order to stay convenient. Still, when everybody is just solo leveling, its nice to suddenly have an excuse to have the zone group up and realize there's all these people online with you that were previously invisible. juggalo baby coffin posted:one thing i do miss from older mmos is the out-of-combat utility you got from different classes. it made them feel special, apart from the classes who got jack poo poo, then they just felt left out. Yeah, this really bummed me out about the culling of skills in WoW to simplify things. You lost a lot of fun flavor abilities. EQ is exceptionally good for this (although as you said, some classes get a little shafted) I love being a Druid in EQ and just going around casting SoW on people. They're usually very thankful and it feels good to be able to just toss a buff on a stranger and have it cost you very little, but means something to them. That is the kind of social elements we need way more of. Clerics can rez, Necros can locate/summon corpses, Druids/Wizards can teleport, Druids/Clerics/Shamans can buff, Rogues can sneak, etc. etc. That class differentiation and ability to lean on other classes is what makes an MMO to me. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 20:24
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Zaphod42 posted:That class differentiation and ability to lean on other classes is what makes an MMO to me. Yes, agreed completely. There were certainly a lot of flaws in EQ's class design, many of its best elements were unintended, emergent gameplay (e.g., song-twisting, fear- and quad-kiting, feign death pull splitting), and some classes were far too simplistic. But I'd love to see another MMO that aims for more distinct roles rather than fewer. Ever since WOW it seems like the DPS/healer/tank "holy trinity" is the higher end of class differentiation, with even more games going for the thing where every class plays like a tanky DPS with self-sustaining heals. I like GW2's gameplay and world design in many ways, but it doesn't feel like I'm playing a "role" that contrasts with others'. EQ had roles like "crowd controller," "buffer/debuffer," "puller," etc. that were meaningfully distinct and valuable.
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Jan 26, 2021 02:19
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