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https://twitter.com/RMFifthCircuit/status/1352625990854389761 I apologize for dragging current American events into this thread but: lol
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Jan 22, 2021 22:15
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He doesn't even use Aragon II Elessar's correct name or title
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Jan 22, 2021 22:28
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Watch the judge be a total Tolkien nerd who translated Akallabeth into Noldorin or something and then proceed to destroy their filing with liberal use of Tolkien analogies comparing Trump to Sauron and Ted Cruz to Saruman.
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Jan 22, 2021 22:44
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Not the biggest Colbert fan but I do enjoy when he goes on tangents about Middle Earth. Last night he was on a rant about Glorfindel and Ecthelion battling Balrogs.
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Jan 22, 2021 22:46
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Arcsquad12 posted:Not the biggest Colbert fan but I do enjoy when he goes on tangents about Middle Earth. Last night he was on a rant about Glorfindel and Ecthelion battling Balrogs. Like .. on his tv show ??
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Jan 22, 2021 22:53
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euphronius posted:Like .. on his tv show ?? Idk what he's doing these days but I used to watch the Colbert Report when I was in college and he'd make deep-cut Tolkien references from time to time (most of which I didn't get, back then). Dude is a massive Tolkien nerd.
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Jan 22, 2021 23:00
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:He doesn't even use Aragon II Elessar's correct name or title Elessar Telcontar, surely? That it's posted by someone called Melkonian is sheer perfection.
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Jan 22, 2021 23:01
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euphronius posted:Like .. on his tv show ?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB7bwyVVVMs 10:15 Also I love that swipe at David Day about reading the Tolkien dictionary and correcting the entries. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 23:01
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Arcsquad12 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB7bwyVVVMs Hahahahhaha
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Jan 22, 2021 23:04
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Arcsquad12 posted:Also I love that swipe at David Day about reading the Tolkien dictionary and correcting the entries. I got Day's 6-volume "The World of Tolkien" and having read the one about hobbits, boy this guy should teach yoga because he's a master of the stretch.
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Jan 22, 2021 23:21
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The good thing i will attribute to the David Day books is that the illustrations are very pretty and I'm a sucker for John Blanche artwork. The Battle of the Five Armies picture he drew is great.
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Jan 22, 2021 23:39
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I've got his Burroughs Bestiary around somewhere as well as his Tolkien one, and I can't say the quality of either tempted me to find any more of his writing, much as I enjoy the illustrations. (Edgar Rice, not William.)
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Jan 22, 2021 23:51
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Ok, question for the thread: Does the Witch King of Angmar technically have a better claim to the throne of Gondor than Aragorn does? His genealogy isn't given but he's Numenorean and a King, and he'd be about three millennia senior, so . . . Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 02:57
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Ok, question for the thread: I think he only became a king when he established Angmar, which is in no way a part of or in line for the throne of Arnor or Gondor. Before that he was a Numenorean lord of some sort, but there’s zero canonical information about that afaik.
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Jan 23, 2021 03:09
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Yeah, he would have been given his ring before the War of the Last Alliance, right, so not of the Line of Elendil. Still, might have been of the Numenorean royal line?
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Jan 23, 2021 03:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, he would have been given his ring before the War of the Last Alliance, right, so not of the Line of Elendil. Oh, and that’s right I forgot that Elendil was an offshoot and I see what you’re getting at now. I mean, let’s say he really was the legitimate heir to the kingship of Númenor...a kingdom that doesn’t exist anymore. Gondor was a new and separate kingdom, yeah? But would the Dúnedain owe him fealty on racial grounds? Haha I don’t know.
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Jan 23, 2021 03:22
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SeductiveReasoning posted:Oh, and that’s right I forgot that Elendil was an offshoot and I see what you’re getting at now. I mean, let’s say he really was the legitimate heir to the kingship of Númenor...a kingdom that doesn’t exist anymore. Gondor was a new and separate kingdom, yeah? But would the Dúnedain owe him fealty on racial grounds? Haha I don’t know. The Lords of Andúnië, from whom Elendil was descended, were only a cadet branch of the House of Elros because Tar-Elendil had an eldest daughter before the law was changed so that the Sceptre of Númenor could be held by a woman. If Silmariën hadn't been passed over due to her gender then the kingship would have passed down to the first-born child all the way to Elendil. Considering that they became the leaders of the Faithful, it's very possible that agnatic primogeniture caused the Downfall.
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Jan 23, 2021 03:42
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I'm pretty sure that since Arnor and Gondor were Elendil's kingdoms they trace their kingship from him directly, rather than back to Elros through him.
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Jan 23, 2021 03:46
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Lemniscate Blue posted:The Lords of Andúnië, from whom Elendil was descended, were only a cadet branch of the House of Elros because Tar-Elendil had an eldest daughter before the law was changed so that the Sceptre of Númenor could be held by a woman. If Silmariën hadn't been passed over due to her gender then the kingship would have passed down to the first-born child all the way to Elendil. Yeah I always quite liked that little flourish of Tolkien's, this might all be an unpalatable blood mythos by modern standards but at least he had his heart in the right place about women as men's equals.
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Jan 23, 2021 03:48
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It’s highly likely that Angmar, as descendant of Numenorean lords, had some however distant tie to Numenorean royalty. They had to marry somebody, and thought first cousin marriages were scandalous. Even if it’s just like, Angmar’s great aunt to the tenth being someone’s wife. Numenoreans colonized the mainland and considered it pretty much their property as a nation, especially after they whip Sauron. There’s an entire city-state of Numenorean colonial descent on the mainland all through the third age that has nothing to do with the Elendili and never did. So better claim? Not really but on the other hand, the Numenoreans have no claim to Middle-earth to begin with, they just took it. The magic words you have to say when taking the Gondorian crown amount to “yeah I just showed up here with God and my right and I’m here to stay, what are you gonna do about it”.
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Jan 23, 2021 03:48
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Lemniscate Blue posted:The Lords of Andúnië, from whom Elendil was descended, were only a cadet branch of the House of Elros because Tar-Elendil had an eldest daughter before the law was changed so that the Sceptre of Númenor could be held by a woman. If Silmariën hadn't been passed over due to her gender then the kingship would have passed down to the first-born child all the way to Elendil. Okay, cool, I’m seeing a clearer picture now. It looks like if the witch king had been anywhere in the royal line between Tar-Meneldur (Silmariën’s younger brother who took the throne) and Ar-Pharazon, he would have a better claim than Aragorn. But a claim to the kingship of Númenor or to Arnor and Gondor? Are A&G considered their own kingdom with their own line, or are they considered still to be Númenor because they are still ruled by the House of Elros?
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Jan 23, 2021 03:57
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Data Graham posted:Yeah I always quite liked that little flourish of Tolkien's, this might all be an unpalatable blood mythos by modern standards but at least he had his heart in the right place about women as men's equals. Tolkien has at least one pretty awful passage about women in his letters. I’m swamped with work, or I would dig out my most hated quote (something like women’s role is to be receptive and be nourished by men, female students learn very quickly but are incapable of being creative or surpassing their male teachers.) He treats gender in a way that is conflicted and almost good, but ultimately bad in much the same way that he treats race.
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Jan 23, 2021 04:02
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Wait where is the Witch King said to be Numenorean from? I legit don't remember the Nazgul getting any of their pre-wraith backgrounds or names revealed. I think I might have heard the words "Kamul the Easterling" before but I can't remember if that was in the appendices or something I imagined. I know some have interpreted the "Gothmog" at Pellenor as being a Wraith but he's literally mentioned in a single sentence and could be an evil Hobbit for all we know.
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Jan 23, 2021 11:13
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galagazombie posted:Wait where is the Witch King said to be Numenorean from? I legit don't remember the Nazgul getting any of their pre-wraith backgrounds or names revealed. I think I might have heard the words "Kamul the Easterling" before but I can't remember if that was in the appendices or something I imagined. I know some have interpreted the "Gothmog" at Pellenor as being a Wraith but he's literally mentioned in a single sentence and could be an evil Hobbit for all we know. I think Gothmog was an orc, but I don't remember where I got that idea from. Sounds like an Orc name though.
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Jan 23, 2021 11:21
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Nessus posted:
He was a balrog. Gothmog the Balrog. In the movies he was an orc.
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Jan 23, 2021 11:36
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Alhazred posted:He was a balrog. Gothmog the Balrog. In the movies he was an orc. There was a Balrog named Gothmog and also a lieutenant of the Witch King during the war of the Ring named Gothmog who is generally assumed to be distinct from the Balrog because if Gothmog the Balrog was around it would be very very clear he was around.
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Jan 23, 2021 12:25
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reignonyourparade posted:There was a Balrog named Gothmog and also a lieutenant of the Witch King during the war of the Ring named Gothmog who is generally assumed to be distinct from the Balrog because if Gothmog the Balrog was around it would be very very clear he was around. Some kinda symbolism there that a Gothmog is attacking a white city defended by the son of an Ecthelion but I can't quite make it work.
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Jan 23, 2021 12:35
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reignonyourparade posted:There was a Balrog named Gothmog and also a lieutenant of the Witch King during the war of the Ring named Gothmog who is generally assumed to be distinct from the Balrog because if Gothmog the Balrog was around it would be very very clear he was around.
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Jan 23, 2021 13:46
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Nessus posted:You know that's a cute kind of idea. Of course the orcs and such might take on the name of ancient badass Morgul-servants. Why wouldn't they? They'd probably even have some old fucks like Shagrat around to tell them about the time he saw some fuckin elf-boy and his bird buddies take down a dragon the size of Mount Doom, fuckin cheaters. ...wait, how old is Shagrat!?
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Jan 23, 2021 14:42
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Tree Bucket posted:...wait, how old is Shagrat!? The bits of dialogue we get imply that Orcs age like Elves.
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Jan 23, 2021 14:44
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Gothmog is the name of the commander of the orcs during Pellinor Fields. Khamul is the only other name given to a ringwraith in the books. He's in charge of Dol Guldur for a while in the Third Age, but I can't remember the chronology. I'm 99% sure this is mentioned in the ROTK appendix.
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Jan 23, 2021 15:00
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CommonShore posted:Gothmog is the name of the commander of the orcs during Pellinor Fields. Yeah he is, and he's also mentioned to be an Easterling. IIRC in one of the letters JRRT says that only 2-3 of the Nine are probably Numenorean.
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Jan 23, 2021 15:04
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Tree Bucket posted:...wait, how old is Shagrat!? Fairly old, but probably not that old. He implies that he’s experienced “old times” when there were “no big bosses”, so he likely was active before Sauron reestablished his rule in Mordor (almost 70 years ago). Gorbag also refers to Sam as being “more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great Siege.” You could assume this means he personally remembers Elendil and Gil-galad’s war, but I doubt it. He’s referring to a vague, propagandistic conception of how bad things can get. There’s no detail there that says to me “this guy is 3000 years old and has met elf warriors”, it’s more like this guy thinks of elf warriors as a boogeyman.
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Jan 23, 2021 15:04
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"Rightful" inheritance is a social construct and the practical strength of Aragorn's claim is built on the back of some old poems Gandalf wrote, and Elvish tricks. Oh, and the army at his back. But the Witch King had one of those. The people want the good old days where a king with healing hands sent them off on foreign wars.
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Jan 23, 2021 15:21
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sassassin posted:"Rightful" inheritance is a social construct and the practical strength of Aragorn's claim is built on the back of some old poems Gandalf wrote, and Elvish tricks. Oh, and the army at his back. But the Witch King had one of those. The people want the good old days where a king with healing hands sent them off on foreign wars. Necromancy is absolutely a form of "healing"! The men of Carn Dum went on all kinds of foreign adventures, this sounds pretty great honestly. Just think, no more succession crises ever again.
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Jan 23, 2021 15:39
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I'm not seeing any mention of Khamul anywhere in the books or appendices.
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Jan 23, 2021 15:58
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:I'm not seeing any mention of Khamul anywhere in the books or appendices. He's only named in "The Hunt for the Ring" in Unfinished Tales
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Jan 23, 2021 16:00
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skasion posted:He's only named in "The Hunt for the Ring" in Unfinished Tales There he is! Also: quote:Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, Do I smell an opportunity for a sitcom about roommates?
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Jan 23, 2021 16:21
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W • R • A • I • T • H • S
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Jan 23, 2021 16:43
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Do I smell an opportunity for a sitcom about roommates? Sitcom or Reality Show? Find out what happens when Nazgul stop being polite and start getting real.
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Jan 23, 2021 16:43
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